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augustinos

posted on Oct 16, 2003 - 08:28 AM

Would anyone know if there is a english translation of the "Defnar"

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Remnkemi

posted on Oct 16, 2003 - 02:22 PM

No there isn't. This was one of the projects I proposed to Abouna to begin. It seems most clergy and deacons don't even know that the Defnar (Antiphonary in English) should be said or they are just used to not saying it. It has slowly lost its place in contemporary practice even though many bishops insists on it.

Eventually, we will work on it when the time is right.
George

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EgyTony

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 12:04 AM

Also here in the south many churches do not have one because believe it or not its pretty expensive

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EgyTony

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 12:04 AM

i meant to say small churches which is 95% of the diocese

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Remnkemi

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 01:28 PM

From EgyTony:Also here in the south many churches do not have one because believe it or not its pretty expensive

Tony, do you think that could be why it's not found in churches. I mean if you think about it, if each church bought 1 Antiphonary book, it wouldn't cost more than a few dollars. My cousin bought mine in Egypt and gave it to me as a gift, so I don't know how much it costs. But one book per church doesn't seem expensive.

I think you're right, though. It probably contributes to the churches' lack of interest in the antiphonary. Which is sad, to say the least.

George

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PaulS

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 04:13 PM

It's probably a circular problem: the fewer churches that buy the Difnar, the fewer copies are sold, and the fewer copies sold, the higher the cost to print more in low quantities.

I'm surprised with all of the great resources of Copts in the USA, Canada, Australia, we don't have an English version.

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 10:11 PM

what is the Antiphonary anyways?

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 17, 2003 - 11:06 PM

Hay,

George what ever happened to you and the making of one in English. I thought it was good idea, because we have a lot of those "I can speak arabic, but not read it." So I am going to present it to a meeting at church today to Abuna Ibrahim and see what he tells me. Because I again think it is a wonderful idea.

Pray for me,
George

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Mechaiel

posted on Oct 18, 2003 - 11:52 AM

Dear Egyptianhomeboy,

The defnar (Antiphonary/Antiphonarium) is a book resembling the Synaxarium but is chanted during the midnight praises. There is an entry for each Coptic day. Each entry talks about the story of the saint of the day. It is arranged in a poetic way so it would fit the tune nicely. As far as I know, this is the order of chanting the defnar:

1) Coptic Introduction (Adam or Watos)
2) The first two phrases (I think) are chanted in coptic
3) The reading itself is read in Arabic

I don't know its tune very well, and in turn, have never chanted it before. Hopefully, I'll learn its tune soon.

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Mechaiel Farag

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Andrew

posted on Oct 18, 2003 - 12:40 PM

Defnar is also used in Vesper praises not just midnight.

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Mechaiel

posted on Oct 19, 2003 - 05:04 AM

Andrew,

I didn't know that! Well, you learn something everyday! Thank you for pointing that out.

So, exactly when in the vesper praises do you say the Defnar?

And another question:
In the midnight praises, you say the defnar of the coming day. Eg Sunday midnight praises (ie Saturday night/ Sunday morning), you would say the defnar reading of Sunday. What about the Vesper Praises, would you say the defnar of the next day as well (Eg Saturday night vesper praises done on Saturday night: do you say the Sunday defnar reading)?

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Andrew

posted on Oct 19, 2003 - 09:10 PM

Each day has only one reading. So in vepsers' praises you say the saint of that actual day i.e. vespers praises on a saturday you read the defnar for saturday. In vespers it is chanted / read just before the conclusion 'O Penchois'.

And yes in the midnight praises, you say the defnar of the coming day. Eg Sunday midnight praises (ie Saturday night/ Sunday morning), you would say the defnar reading of Sunday.

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mikokiko

posted on Oct 19, 2003 - 11:53 PM

I thought you could also say it during the Glorifications? (Tamegeeds), I'm not sure when exactly though.
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Andrew

posted on Oct 20, 2003 - 09:36 AM

During glorifications there are 'Tar7' or commentaries that can be read for saints these come right at the end of the glorification.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 21, 2003 - 04:24 AM

In my church (St. George-Bellflower CA) we have these big kieak books that have all the praises and everything you would need to know to run a smooth liturgy. But I am not sure where you can purchase them.

You may want to try St. Anthony's Monastery.

George

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EgyTony

posted on Oct 22, 2003 - 12:20 AM

Ive heard the defnar chanted in English one time, and that was HGB Youssef.

HG took the defnar chant for that day and translated it, actually it was during St. Mary's fast so he took the generic defnar entry for the fast and used that one.

I think its something every church should either: keep going, or start, and what a better way than to inform through Coptic hymns. This is how rites get changed and omitted, laziness on our part. Incha allah every church will "shid hellhoum" and begin adding this reading even if its read until someone learns how to chant it, will keep this simple tradition alive.

If anybody needs information on how to obtain one please email me at tontonpk@aol.com

pray for me
tony

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Mike Fanous

posted on Nov 29, 2003 - 05:07 AM

Hello All,

it has been a long while since i came to post or read messages and i am glad that i have this time. what caught my eye was the english defnar....the thought and idea has been in my mind for a long time, to the point where i borrowed the arabic/coptic defnar and photocopied...before everyone yells at me for copyright...let me explain...1. i don't know where to find another copy 2. i don't have the resources to find another....so i photocopied it, so the original copy can stay at church...and i can manipulate the photocopy without damaging the church's copy...so i made a copy...my dad read through it for me...i am trying to make a rough translation copy in english...but most likely because its long process trying to get proper english and grammar...i am looking for professional translators...not sure how long it will take or when it will be done...but the process is beginning...and it would be awesome to help out in or be helped with...if anyone has bits or pieces..or anything...i am trying the best i can to complete it...anyone want to work together ?

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Andrew

posted on Nov 29, 2003 - 11:38 AM

Mike,

We can ONLY commend you on your effort its a step which nobody else has dared to take. I personally think photocopying the Defnar was in no way wrong, firstly your not using for your own benefit etc plus nobody expects you to buy an original only to write all over it. We pray that you may have God's grace and guidence in completing this project, its definitely something that is needed and will be great benefit to many.

GBU

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geomekhaiel

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 02:35 AM

Does anyone know what is going on with the making of the English Defnar? IT HAS BEEN ONE YEAR AND TWO MONTHS SINCE THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN OPENED!!!!! I would hope that someone has taken some sort of effort in making an English version! I have been excited about the idea for a long time, but no action has been taken to enforce this great idea. If you have heard anything please feel free to pm me.

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Kalax

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 02:48 AM

†
i'm also eager to hear any updates...this is a beautiful tradition...if it were found in english more people would use it...in mississauga, we have to struggle to find someone who reads arabic to pull out the allotted date...

i can edit...

peace and love,

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Meghalo05

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 03:12 AM

Can someone explain to me what the difnar is, i think I have an idea, but i forgot?

Forgive me

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shaq

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 04:54 AM

thats such a coincidence ...last saturday i was thinking of getting a group to trnaslate it as well... but if someone si working on it i wont do it, itll be a waste to duplicate the work... lemme know if u r serious or not...

the defnar is a book that has teh story and some like praises or so of teh saints of the day... its read b4 neknai o panoty duirng the sunday midnight praise and there is a coptic intro and conclusion for each saint... thats all i know

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Kalax

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 07:09 AM

†
Yup, that pretty much sums it all up...

wait...i just remembered something... the 'Defnar' or 'Antiphonarium'in English, has a distinct style to it...in the ideal circumstances, the 'defnar' is chanted in a manner that the North Chorus would respond the the South Chorus-however, a group responding to a solo may also give the same effect.

just take a look at the name itself...'Anti-phonarium'. You can check out HCOC's annual midnight praise cd’s for a sample...i think its on cd #6.

It's beautiful when done this way.

As an expression of how rich our beloved Church is, this is all Biblical...it all has substance.

""Then I brought up the princes of Judah upon the wall, and appointed two great companies which gave thanks and went in procession. One went to the right upon the wall to the Dung Gate; 32 and after them went Hoshai'ah and half of the princes of Judah, 33 and Azari'ah, Ezra, Meshul'lam, 34 Judah, Benjamin, Shemai'ah, and Jeremiah, 35 and certain of the priests' sons with trumpets: Zechari'ah the son of Jonathan, son of Shemai'ah, son of Mattani'ah, son of Micai'ah, son of Zaccur, son of Asaph; 36 and his kinsmen, Shemai'ah, Az'arel, Mil'alai, Gil'alai, Ma'ai, Nethan'el, Judah, and Hana'ni, with the musical instruments of David the man of God; and Ezra the scribe went before them. 37 At the Fountain Gate they went up straight before them by the stairs of the city of David, at the ascent of the wall, above the house of David, to the Water Gate on the east.

38"The other company of those who gave thanks went to the left, and I followed them with half of the people, upon the wall, above the Tower of the Ovens, to the Broad Wall, 39 and above the Gate of E'phraim, and by the Old Gate, and by the Fish Gate and the Tower of Hanan'el and the Tower of the Hundred, to the Sheep Gate; and they came to a halt at the Gate of the Guard. 40 So both companies of those who gave thanks stood in the house of God, and I and half of the officials with me; 41 and the priests Eli'akim, Ma-asei'ah, Mini'amin, Micai'ah, Eli-o-e'nai, Zechari'ah, and Hanani'ah, with trumpets; 42 and Ma-asei'ah, Shemai'ah, Elea'zar, Uzzi, Jehoha'nan, Malchi'jah, Elam, and Ezer. And the singers sang with Jezrahi'ah as their leader. 43 And they offered great sacrifices that day and rejoiced, for God had made them rejoice with great joy; the women and children also rejoiced. And the joy of Jerusalem was heard afar off." Nehemiah 12. 31-43.

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elshammaa

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 01:44 PM

Im glad this topic has been brought up! I have been asking priests / bishops / monasteries, etc for this since I first learned of its existence! Most recently I asked HG Bishop Youssef at the Florida Convention (WWF 05). HG told me that the Southern Diocese has been in the process of translating it, and it should be out "soon"!! Which is very exciting, but who knows what soon means?

What our church does occasionally, is the deacon reading it in arabic will give a rough translation at the time of reading. UNfortunately, he is not always there! God willing we wont need this "soon" Pray for it!! In Christ,
me

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elshammaa

posted on Feb 04, 2005 - 01:46 PM

Oh yeah, forgot to mention.... if anyone else is working on it.... might want to cooperate. It gets hard for us when each diocese gets a diferent translation Pray for it!!
me

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