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English Defnar
Kalax
posted on Dec 06, 2006 - 05:45 AM
I’m willing to help edit:) We can start by comparing the mentioned works.
Let's get cracking on this guys! If we coordinate a little, i'm sure we can squeeze something good for the synod to review and God willing, approve. I know a hand full of dedicated servants who would also lend their talents.
pce & lve,
alex
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Alex(Kalax)
1 Thess.5:17
"For this is God's command, that you owe nothing to anyone but the pledge of love, which God has commanded by Christ".(Rom. 13:8)
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Remnkemi
posted on Dec 06, 2006 - 12:46 PM
Just a note. O'Leary wrote in the early 20th century. His translation has British tendencies. All the pronounces are in Old English (Thee, Thou, etc). It's a big job to change all of that.
Burmester's manuscripts are in the The Virgin Mary church in Kasriyat ar-Rihan in Old Cairo and Manuscript 323 in the Coptic Museum. The manuscripts are in Coptic and Copto-Arabic. The writing is hard to distinguish and the Arabic translation is not always right. Above all, I don't think it follows the current Antiphonarium book.
It's important to research the manuscripts. But the end result should be research, not necessarily making a new book.
George
pavly
posted on Dec 17, 2006 - 03:08 AM
Hello guys, I went to our university's library and found the book there...bass akhat bomba!
It's not even translated, it's just written in Coptic.
That's unless I found the wrong version of it. The title on the book was clear: "The Difnar (antiphonarium) of the coptic church"
So I guess our searches continue to have a english translation!
Pavly
Kalax
posted on Dec 17, 2006 - 09:12 PM
†
If the 'Defnar' was translated i think it would be used in Church.
I'm praying we can form a joint-committee of interested/educated youth and move forward with the translation and God willing, the protocol for Church approval.
Pce & lve,
a
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Alex(Kalax)
1 Thess.5:17
"For this is God's command, that you owe nothing to anyone but the pledge of love, which God has commanded by Christ".(Rom. 13:8)
HCOC Member
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT
Biboboy
posted on Dec 18, 2006 - 01:12 AM
Agape,
I also found the book in the library, but there isn't an English translation in there.
I'm still wondering if a translation is even possible?! I mean, the Coptic verses seem translatable to me, but the Arabic verses will really make no sense in English.
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!
Kalax
posted on Dec 18, 2006 - 03:40 AM
†
Very interesting perspectives. Thanks everyone.
Of course, it would be ideal to translate directly from the Coptic, however only the select few are fluent in Coptic and they are extremely busy-either teaching or in service.
Let's stick to Arabic. It is widely spoken and is the first or second language of most Copts.
Obviously, i think it's possible to translate the 'Difnar' from Arabic. How? I believe we can translate the concept and/or writing style For example, if it's poetic, the efforts should be specific to translating it raw and then making it poetic. This requires more effort but it's possible.
Keep in mind, when translating from Arabic primarily the Coptic can be used as a handy and powerful tool. The translators can teeter totter between the Coptic and Arabic to produce a NEW English version. Therefore, we are making changes (when needed) not to the Arabic itself but to the final English version which is compared to the Coptic but primarily translated from Arabic and crysallized by making it poetic in English.
In Christ,
a
_________________
Alex(Kalax)
1 Thess.5:17
"For this is God's command, that you owe nothing to anyone but the pledge of love, which God has commanded by Christ".(Rom. 13:8)
HCOC Member
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT
davelwadelrewesh
posted on Dec 18, 2006 - 02:43 PM
+In the Name of the Saloos El Kodoos+
I searched the book - NKCSC-SLG2 , O'Leary, The Difnar (Antiphonarium of the Coptic Church, 3 parts (PC, PDF 5.0) $10.00 $12.00 - and i found that its available on a cd in pdf format on the following website for sale.
http://www.stshenouda.com/society/coptstor.htm
Bibo and Kalax, if you are gonna buy it let me know cause then we can place an order for other resources too from St. Shenouda the Archimandrite Coptic Society for our churches.
You may also get in touch with some one from there about the english difnar translation, the email is HTakla@stshenouda.com on the website.
Hope this helps
Pray for a sinner
Biboboy
posted on Dec 18, 2006 - 04:21 PM
From Remnkemi:Pavly, Biboboy, what book did you find in your libraries? Was it De Lancy O'Leary's version? I haven't been able to find it anywhere. I'm curious.
Thanks.
George
It's "The Difnar (Antiphonarium) of the Coptic Church," edited by De Lacy O'Leary, (London : Luzac, 1926-28), 2 Volumes.
Volume 1 (first four months) from the manuscript in the John Rylands Library, Manchester with fragments of a Difnar discovered at the Deir Abu Makar in the Wadi n-Natrun. Volume 2 (Second four months, Tubeh, Amshir, Barmahat and Barmuda) from the Vatican Codex Copt. Borgia 59.
Both volumes are in Coptic only, and they're handwritten.
David, I'm guessing that the cd you're mentioning is the same as the books in the library - i.e. that they're in Coptic and not an English translation.
Kalax, the Arabic in the Difnar isn't related to the Coptic. It's more like an exposition of the Coptic, not a translation, most of which are really long poetic stories. Even though I have experience in translating from Arabic to English, I don't think it's an easy task to do so with the Difnar.
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!
pavly
posted on Dec 18, 2006 - 11:30 PM
The one I found was as Bishoy said, handwritten in Coptic, only with the date written in arabic ("al yom al... men shahr ...).
For the translation, I would suggest having something like wiki does, where someone would start by translating, even if it's not regular, and other people can add and modify the translated text. However, someone should be in charge and who would have the final word regarding the translated text. Then, I guess when the whole Difnar is translated, it could be presented to appropriate "authorities" (whether the local priest/bishop/or the Holy Synod).
What do you guys think?
Pavly
geomekhaiel
posted on May 08, 2008 - 03:22 PM
Hello All,
I tried doing some research in this area and eventually came to the conclusion that there aren't any groups of people, or even single person, who is working on it. So, I had taken it upon myself to start working on it. I assembled a small group of people willing to work on translating it but it ended up falling apart when speaking to someone (who shall remain nameless). This person told me that our patriarch has said that he doesn't want anyone to translate the arabic difnar until it is fixed. There are too many errors within it and it wouldn't make sense to translate it. It would be a waste of time.
George Mekhaiel
....another option is translating directly from the Coptic but that's a lot more work.
Fortunatus
posted on May 08, 2008 - 05:02 PM
+Pi`<rictoc aftwnf!
From Epideacon:I didn't even know there was a Coptic version. Is it possible to buy one?
Yes, it is included on CD from St. Shenouda the Archimandrite Society.
This is the link, and it is the third from the bottom in the table.
Pray for me.
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Epideacon
posted on May 08, 2008 - 11:48 PM
I only care about getting the Coptic. What kind of errors are you refering to? To anyone who has this, is it good? Do you find it useful??? I was thinking that I would have to go all the way to Egypt and search the lands until I find a copy, but if this is one is good, I'll definitely buy it.
Remnkemi
posted on May 09, 2008 - 01:18 AM
I was referring to Sahidic tendencies. The text is in Bohairic Coptic but you'll find Sahidi spelling throughout the text. What exactly do you mean by useful? Did it help me understand the Arabic version we have, no because I don't know Coptic well enough. I'm not sure what you're asking.
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