coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 01:58 AM

I my church we have been having a big problem of not praying Coptic and instead praying English (I disagree). Our head deacon always says the same old story that we have to let the people understand. WE DON’T DO ANY COPTIC AT ALL, IT IS DRIVING ME NUTTY. I TEACH IT AT CHURCH AND THEN GO INTO CHURCH AND NOT EVEN USE IT. I am begging to think we should change our name to English Orthodox Church. I agree that the people should understand but still it’s Coptic.(Who cares if they understand) (They’re lazy). In Egypt it is different. Our head deacon is Abouna’s son (Of course). And even Abouna feels the same way (Because of his son). And I am just a deacon.

What do you guys think. Am wrong or right. Sorry to all those who don’t understand the meaning oft he hymns of the church, if I disrespected you, but I feel real strong about this problem.

I hope our head deacon doesn’t read this or I am fired.

Pray for me,
Your Servant
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

coptichymnsman

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:06 AM

i agree, i have been in a wild fight with my brothers deacn for saynig "Amen, Amen, Amen, Ton thana ton"...they were gonna eat me alive, man

well, i agree with calling our church English Orthodox, we are not just originally coptic but we are to follow their steps

Agape

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 389
Location: Sydney Australia NSW

coptichymnsman

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:08 AM

well, i wasn't serious about calling our churh English orthodox, i was just joking haha

well, pray for me people (please)

Ougai

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 389
Location: Sydney Australia NSW

geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:17 AM

Me and Ramez have had this conversation a 1000 times and we have no idea what to do. Today I confronted your head deacon when we wore waiting for Anba Surapion to come and he told me rudely that when I can hold up a conversation with him in Coptic then we will pray in Coptic. And the strange part is that he is EXCELLENT IN COPTIC. He knows more hymns than anyone I know.(In Coptic).

I guess I have a new goal now
Pray for me,
Your Servant,
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Guest

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:46 AM

George,

Feel your pain brother. This disease is spreading.

If you feel this strongly about it, don't serve with him.

Mina.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:50 AM

Thanks man. I really want to switch churches, but I adicted to the Church and the people, and I am a servant, and I have too many classes. If I switch a lot of events would be canceled and I don’t know where they are going to get servants.

Thanks man
Pray for me,
Your Servant
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Guest

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:56 AM

From geomekhaiel:So if I switched the church would start to fail.

ill share something my teacher n guide in the service once told me: "the service never depends on you. the Lord will provide and take care of the Church whether ur there or not"

It's good that you're committed and addicted however, if you're having continued arguments with the head deacon and can't serve in a liturgy without tension, it's best not to serve with him. I didn't really mean to leave the church but for now, stay away from a liturgy where he serves. ramez tells me it is a different environment in st. cyril. perhaps you could attend liturgies there and still serve in your church until things change.

just some advice.

mina.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 03:15 AM

I know what you are saying, and in a way I agree (If you can’t beat them join them) but it is Coptic and nothing can change my mind.
But thank you for the advice

Pray for me,
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Guest

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 03:20 AM

I am with you all the way. I wasn't advocating giving up. I am saying though fight the silent invisible war away from the public eye.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 03:23 AM

Thanks man, but is seems like it is just me you and fady, I wonder where everybody else is.

Come on guys I know that you have an opinion too, where is it.

Pray for me,
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

atthoowi

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 04:51 AM

It's not worth the fight. Don't give up salvaion for hymns/coptic. I love Coptic and for that reason I studied it and speak it with my friends, I just don't think that this love for it should allow the devil to separate us from having peace in church. I know churches that say more Coptic than others. Perhaps you should just switch to a church that accomodates to your personality.

Joined: Nov 08, 2002 | Posts: 363

Viva_XHMI

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 07:35 AM

George,
I agree with every word u've said.. u can guess my own opinion from my nickname
Believe me bro when i read ur message i thought u were speaking of my own church.. then I inferred that it's another one (unfortunately)

The usual pretexts are:
1- Coptic ! What about converts? (as if we intend to make the whole liturgy in coptic...)
2- Coptic ! Kids will never share and attend the liturgy..
3- Coptic! ppl dont understand (dada dada ...)

Proposed solutions:
1- Let's teach coptic to the kids and then they will request it themselves.. remember the coptic is much easier to learn to a native western than arabic.. I've seen that myself
The scenario usually goes as "u'll find no interest to attend,...."

2- Let's make a Liturgy in a weekday in coptic say once a month
and leave all sundays for english-liturgy-fans
The reply is "where to find time or deacons ???!!!"

3- As proposed in a previous post , the best action in such an environment is the Gandhi's way (peaceful opposition).. teach urself and master everything (invisibly), then use every opportunity, mainly with kids, to let them LOVE our native language.. Try to relate that to our beloved ancient original country and to her ancient language (btw I totally agree with the opinion saying the coptic is another FONT of the older ancient hieroglyphic or demotic language .. it's a FONT rather than a language )

Some other remarks:
1- If it keeps going that way (totally ignoring and even getting ashamed from coptic - sorry for the expression), then what u mentioned guys will not be a joke.. our church will really drop her coptic identity and will become "english american/canadian/... church"

2- Concerning converts, why this happens only in coptic churchs? I mean when a native convert goes to ,say, a greek orthodox church, the church keeps using the greek language (at least in parts and many specific hymns) and no one objects..

3- The thing that really shocked me that the Pope in every August convention keeps reminding the priests of US and Canada of the importance of coptic in the church !!!! Is it a kind of political speech that is forgotten after every convention? (Check that in El-Keraza early september 2003)

4- Many churches in immigration lands are very successful in using coptic in the liturgy (in Europe and Australia as well).. So it is not a problem of kids, converts, ppl,... I think it's LAZYNESS and IGNORANCE..and worst of all imposing personal views

Sorry If my way offended anyone...
eshlil ethvit

Joined: Aug 31, 2003 | Posts: 20

petros04

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 12:58 PM

Of course this is a never ending problem that I have definitly seen in my own church as well as many. I think the ideal would be a liturgy half in Coptic and half in English on Sundays. I've seen this and I think it worked out perfectly pleasing everyone. The arabic liturgies should be prayed during the week when most of the people attending would be arabic speakers. Anyway this issue can be resolved in the national deacons' convention. The pope has told the priests yes that they should pray more coptic. If he tells all the head deacons as well while the priests are around then I don't think the priests as well as the deacons can not follow sayedna's request. Since the deacons represent the congregation and are to serve the congregation, then this request from Pope Shenouda should be passed on to the congregation through sermons. Whoever wants to defy the pope can go to another church because I'm sick of people taking religion into their own hands and not following the rules of the bible which say to submit to our elders and basically to trust their way of thinking especially the pope. This is another issue we should lecture about to the congregation. This is how our problem will be solved. If people complain about the Coptic, then you can tell them to answer to God and see if they can argue with Him because he entrusted Pope Shenouda to do his work on earth.

Petros

Joined: Jun 14, 2003 | Posts: 261
Location: Miami, FL

cyriliv

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 02:40 PM

This topic has lead to very controversial and hot arguments in my church in Detroit. I personally love my Coptic language and culture and wish and pray that it survives till the end of time.

However, I must say that the preservation of our language is not worth the alientation of our congregation from our beloved church. After all what is more important the edification of the congregation through hymns they can understand or the preservation of the Coptic language? I know that all of you guys have your hearts in the right place. But calling the Coptic congregation "lazy" and "ignorant" is totally inappropriate, especially because they do not know a language that most deacons don't even know.

Our primary job as deacons is service, isn't that what deacon literally means: servant? I think our jobs are to make the congregation as comfortable in prayer as possible, to make sure that they recieve the maximum amount of blessing from the Church's services, to teach them, and, by far the most important, to help them develop and maintain a relationship with Christ. Let us not put obstacles in their way. Petros you said that the people must be taught to "submit"; this is true, the first virtue of Christianity is humility and humility entails submission. However, does a mother tell her infant child to submit and be quite when he is crying? No. She picks him up gently, finds out what is wrong and tries her hardest to remedy it.

Let us reach out to our fellow Copts with respect and humility. Let us show them the awe inspiring beauty of our native language without driving them away from the only source of their salvation, our beloved Church.

I suggest having complete Coptic liturgies on Saturdays and during the week like Viva_XHMI said. This will allow those who truly wish to pray in their native language to pray in such a manner. I also believe that if Coptic classes are taught people will eventually come, even if the initial turn out will be small.

We can preserve our language. Howver, to me the edification and salvation of our Coptic congregation is more important than the preservation of the Coptic language.

Eiryny nem Agapy
Kerelloc

ps Amyn amyn amyn Ton ;anaton is not Coptic; it's Geek. So really the only thing Coptic about it is the tune. This is true with many other hymns in our Church. So before we say we are preserving Coptic, let's make sure the hymn is Coptic. I apologize in advance if I have offended any person.

Joined: Mar 19, 2003 | Posts: 155
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Mathitis

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 05:48 PM

there is only a handful of ppl who can have coptic conversations,which i find very sad. Coptic is a dead language. i understand where that head deacon is comin from; he dont wanna recite the hymns in coptic and not understand what he is saying and/or meaning.

I'm also like that, thats why id love to go to the Coptic University in Ehypt; it will help me alot.

btw,anybody know the admission reqs. to get into the coptic uni?

pray for me,
Matt

_________________
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+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Joined: Oct 07, 2003 | Posts: 1621
Location: "Legitimate" Business Headquarters

Kirollos64

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 06:53 PM

This is just a small reply to tell you guys that back here in the low-lands (i.e. the Netherlands or Holland like some of you would like to call it,) we have complete dutch Liturgies every first Saturday of the month. It's not a lot and the dutch people here actually can't complain because the liturgies on Sunday are a mix of Arabic, Coptic and Dutch. Off course, Arabic is the dominant language in which we pray in but the priest still manages to pray (for some time) in the other two languages. Personally I don't see what's all the fuss about. Those who do not want to pray in either Arabic or Coptic could translate what they are singing back into their mother tongue. It works for me but I like to pray in Arabic and Coptic anyway
I think that people should at least give time to learn the language of our Ancient Fathers, otherwise the only real solution would be providing the Holy Liturgies in other languages on different days (like most of you already suggested ).

God bless you all,
Kirollos

_________________
"Young people, enjoy your youth. Be happy while you are still young. Do what you want to do, and follow your heart's desire. But remember that God is going to judge you for whatever you do."
- Ecc 11:9 -

Joined: Jun 17, 2003 | Posts: 314
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Nov 03, 2003 - 10:18 PM

how about headphones? they do it in the pope's meeting on wed i guess in the cathederal

_________________
Ramez

St. Cyril of Alexandria COC

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1782

geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 12:09 AM

I will tell you guys from right now I teach Coptic at my church for about 1 year now. We have maaaaaaaaaaany classes at our church for anyone who wants to learn for any age. I know tons of people who have left my church in order to go to a church that prays more Coptic. Sorry again if I offended anyone. I will also state that we have had millions of times where Abouna is praying in Coptic and our head deacon responds in English, 8O and absolutely messes up the tune, because everybody is praying in a different language.(even the most simple things). Every time I confront him he absolutely makes me feel like I am JUST a deacon, who has no idea about what is going on around me.

Pray for me
Your Servant,
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

farah

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 12:23 AM

Its unfortunately a problem that will not go away until addressed from the top. My look on the issue is not the fact the the hymns are in Coptic or Greek - but rather we must for many of the hymns of our church sing them in the way they were originally meant to be said. I think that many churches have approached a sort of compromise. For example in tasbeha-the long portions of Khen Oshoat and Maren-onh etc are said in coptic and the shorter more repetitive verses in arabic/english. This, I think is an acceptable solution because we preserve the longer tunes in their original sense while only translating the shorter repetitive verses.

Joined: Jun 12, 2003 | Posts: 13

cyriliv

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 02:14 AM

Farah, I totally agree with you. Compromise is the way that unity can be maintained in this situation. Going to one extreme or the other will alienated many people.

As for the way that our hymns "were originally meant to be said", I believe that orthodox hymns have two original purposes: 1. Praise and glorification of God and His saints and 2. The edification of the masses. So if we continue to sing in Coptic especially in churches where there are not enough of proper translations, then we defeat the original purposes of our hymns. I think it is extremely important that we educate the people about what they are singing and why they are singing it. If we don't do this and still maintain that we must sing Coptic, we will have a dwindling congregation of parots praying with their lips and not with their hearts. And I can practically guarantee that most of our parishioners will leave the Church to go to a place where they are allowed to pray in a language they can comprehend. Let us tread carefully.

Eiryny nem Agapy
Kerelloc

Joined: Mar 19, 2003 | Posts: 155
Location: Detroit, Michigan

geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 02:30 AM

I have to say that everybody seems to have a different opinion, my overall opinion is that Coptic is the way to go. And about 90% of you guys seem to agree with me. That’s great but I still have the same problem which is that I don’t want to switch churches and would love to stay at my church. WHAT TO DO; WHAT TO DO; WHAT TO DO. I am stuck inbetween a rock and my head deacon. lol.

Pray for me,
Your Servant,
George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

petros04

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 12:30 PM

Like I said before which I guess no one read. When the pope tells the head deacons themselves in a national deacons' convention that they have to pray more coptic then they will have to. Then when the Pope tells the deacons they will have to relate to the congregation as well in the form of sermons. I think this will solve all of our problems.

Joined: Jun 14, 2003 | Posts: 261
Location: Miami, FL

Guest

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 12:58 PM

did read that petros and yes it is the solution. but what we gonna do - go and whip priests & choir leaders into line?

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petros04

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 05:27 PM

Why should we even have to? If we even say the words to our priests and deacons, "I thought pope shenouda said that we should pray more coptic," then they should feel guilty themselves for not following the pope's orders and should start praying Coptic.

Joined: Jun 14, 2003 | Posts: 261
Location: Miami, FL

Guest

posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 05:42 PM

I can't comment on your comment Petros in public. PM me for a private discussion. This is potentially an inappropriate issue on these forums.

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