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Coptic vs English

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EgyTony

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posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 06:22 PM

As far there not being enough translations for the liturgy, that is DEFINITELY an excuse....the idea of not saying ANY coptic is too extreme, and if u agree with not saying any coptic then ur taking the easy way out

I think what peter meant by lazy was that, instead of coming up with an alternative to completely get rid of the COPTIC CHURCH's language, why not teach it

Practically speaking nobody will learn coptic in a month or even a year from jus classes and atthowi will tell u that, but lets just say a church starts classes, and by the way this thread isnt taking the other extreme, geomikhail isnt saying pray the WHOLE liturgy in coptic, hes saying we need a good mix of both

Theres liturgy books that have coptic english and arabic translated, lets say we come to say Amen Amen Amen Ton Thanaton, and somebody doesnt understand...all they have to do is like 2 inches to the left and BAM theres the english translation right there, its really not that bad, i promise, i def dont speak coptic but if i need to know what something means just to take spiritual benefit from something, i can read the english while the coptic is being chanted, its really not worth getting rid of coptic completely, again thats where laziness comes in

MY FINAL COMMENT comes from something that HG Bishop Youssef did, the diocese came out with new liturgy hymns in english, meaning new translation and a more fixed way to say them as much from the coptic as possible, anba youssef made a "decree" that said all churches in his diocese were to pray english every sunday for a year so the people can learn the new english liturgy hymns, but he only gave the time frame of a year NOT THE REST OF THE CHURCHS LIFE for a reason, he def thinks its extreme to pray all english, and if you ever attend a liturgy by Bishop Youssef u will see that he will never just say one language, he alternates between all 3, and this is normal, dont tell me "becaue people dont understand" that ur excuse is legit, HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY SPEAK COPTIC? not too many but they do what everybody else does, if they really want to know the meanings just read along while it is being chanted, and this has been done for a very long time, so i dont think us americans are gonna come now and change that because,...haram "the people dont understand" i promise a little coptic never hurt anybody Wink

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petros04

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posted on Nov 04, 2003 - 08:05 PM

Thanks Tony,

I'm not really an extremist anymore. Now I actually find myself translating more Coptic hymns in English than actually saying them in Coptic. But as the hymns are translated in English half is still said in Coptic. If it takes a very long time to get the ideal half Coptic half English liturgy and everyone is satisfied the most important thing right now is to at least preserve our liturgy. I'm not saying there hasn't been a big effort to do this. I know lots of churches now are trying to saying the english hymns as well as priests parts with the Coptic tune. Let us not stop there though. Anything said in English should have the Coptic tune including the readings, deacon's responses, and the long hymns of tasbeha. The other biggest thing that I've been talking to lately with a few priests and bishops is recording an accurate hymnal translation (the tune) of the Coptic Gregorian liturgy. I have yet to see someone do this. I know congregations might really be turned off by a long Gregorian liturgy if all the tunes were applied but I suggest we go little by little. Like start off for example by accturately chanting the whole priest part that starts axion ke thekon in English with the correct Coptic tune. Then later down the line other parts can be translated untill the whole Coptic Gregorian Liturgy is resurrected. We have to have faith and stop being discouraged. This can and will be done as it is the will of God to keep the church alive and not let anything die including our spirits.

Petros

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 02:38 AM

nowhere in the Bible does it say to praise God in a specific language.
God dont care about language! He cares about us! He cares about us noticing that Jesus is God! Rememebr when Jesus was crucified? there were 2 theives besides Him. one of them was making fun of Jesus. The other theif told off the first one, telling him that Jesus IS God!

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ,[10] save Yourself and us."
But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord,[11] remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23 : 10-12

Hope this helps,
Matt


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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 02:40 AM

nowhere is it mentioned about Praising God with a specific language. learning coptic is part of our heritage,not our duty to God.


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geomekhaiel

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 02:54 AM

I kind of agree, but kind of don't. In the sense of praising him in any language I agree, but when it comes to leaving Coptic I strongly disagree. I don't know about anyone else, but for me Coptic is everything, without it half of my day would be wasted. Also lets not forget that we are called the COPTIC Orthodox church, not the ENGLISH Orthodox church. There is a reason for that, but that is whole different topic/forum. Anyone can pray in English, but how many of us want to put away alllllllllll the hard work aside that we have put into learning Coptic. Also lets not, forget that all the hymn's original form was in Coptic, and everywhere that you turn you hear about preserving the original form, well I think that preserving the original language is important too.

Sorry if I upset anyone, I didn't mean to. Embarassed

Pray for me
Your Servant,
George

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 02:57 AM

i neevr said leave it.
me,personnally, id love to be talk coptic on a conversational level!
but if i can pray better in english,and UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING, then so be it! i dont want to be like a muslim; all know how to read arabic,but do they understand? no they don't!

"its the language of god,blah blah blah"

see my point?
i really want us to be called Coptic until the end of the world. we just have to teach each other about it, and how to talk it, like how we are communicating i nenglish now.


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geomekhaiel

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:02 AM

I absolutely agree, too every word you said. Mr. Green

Pray for me
Your Servant,
George

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:02 AM

keep coptic as our heritage. thats my point


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Guest

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:03 AM

From Mathitis:nowhere in the Bible does it say to praise God in a specific language.
God dont care about language! He cares about us! He cares about us noticing that Jesus is God! Rememebr when Jesus was crucified? there were 2 theives besides Him. one of them was making fun of Jesus. The other theif told off the first one, telling him that Jesus IS God!


Unfortunately Matt your blanket statements in this paragraph just shoot you in the foot. We have discussed and said many times on here that we are not exalting hymns over prayer. The issue is here respecting the Church and the Fathers of the Church who fought to transmit to us the Coptic language. God cares about His Church and God cares about how we worship Him. God is the Author of Tradition and tradition thus we have to respect both kinds. Small tee tradition has our Coptic language. We don't become fanatics and make everyone hear it but also we don't completely neglect it. Your argument is the typical cop-out argument which completely steps away from the problem and declares us all as morons for wanting to even to preserve "a dead" language as you call it.

Coptic is not dead by the way. People who just throw it away are.

Also, this has nothing to do with salvation. It is foolish to mix up issues here. We want to preserve Coptic because we love it and feel its importance in our liturgical worship, not because we're a bunch of legalistic mindless hypocrites who are obsessed with the letter.

Go back again to the other threads and you'll see we're out to revive the Church and make everyone love Coptic and Coptic hymns.

Peace,

Mina.

geomekhaiel

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:09 AM

Well said, you guys both have crazy, convincing arguments. Confused

I don't know who to side with!

Pray for me
Your Savant,
George

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:09 AM

you're right. i did mix up some stuff. but i hope you understand what i mean. i love the coptic language, it's a great language, and needs to be preserved and passed on to our youth and kids. Hymns are prayers, like the Psalms, and so on.

Mina, do me a favour: next time i post something, plz don't ruin my feelign of accomplishement lol Razz

i understand your point. I hope you understand mine,or atleast where I'm comin from... :S


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Guest

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:14 AM

Lol, Mathitis. Unfortunately, your posts don't always show your intentions so that's why I may come across as the post terminator. Smile

I do see what you're saying but I don't agree and sometimes I will come out and post like I post. Just be careful in the future when you make big big statements. If not me, others might pounce on you. lol

Peace,

Mina.

Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:19 AM

the liturgy is beautiful in Coptic, no arguing that. but what would be the point of reciting a Liturgy in Coptic, if most of us are saying it as if we memorized it and are spitting it back out?
thats my point.
its more of a personal matter to me: id rather learn how to communicate conversationally in the coptic language, and praise God in the coptic language, rather than just reciting a hymn in coptic, and not understand what i am saying.

its difficult to word it,especially if you speak three languages lol


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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:20 AM

mina,we are arch-enemies from now on! lol
and everybody is a suspect! lol


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geomekhaiel

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:40 AM

Calm down guys, lol

Pray for me
Your Servant,
George

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:44 AM

now i m mad!

*gets bigger and greener*
lol


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Guest

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:45 AM

The issue here Mathitis is not private worship - it's liturgical worship. I can't comment on your convictions in praying. But I will say that just because one doesn't understand or know a language, it doesn't mean that one should just drop it. I look up to people like Athoowi and Remenkimi who understand and speak and pray Coptic, and that is my continual goal. In a congregational setting, we need to teach and encourage the people to learn and pray in Coptic. Yes, it's not good we just parrot Coptic but we still need to make the effort.

You never were and are not my arch enemy. But if I am yours, that's fine by me. At least it will provide entertainment for the other members on the site. lol

Peace,

Mina.

Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:47 AM

you know what?
you brits got this wit...


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geomekhaiel

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:50 AM

I absolutely think that you are right, and also believe that we as a brotherhood should support the opinions of the other members, even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

You guys are keeping me entertained. Thanks. LOL

Pray for me
Your Servant,
George

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:55 AM

ya wallad!
lah-san a-drabak!
lol Razz


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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 04:41 AM

mina,i really have to say that i am AMAZED with what you know about our church and its history.
keep it up!

matt.


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jgreiss

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 05:40 AM

I'm sorry, but I think Mathitis understands this the best. He's just not expressing it fully.

Salvation is paramount. That's what we live for. All our prayers and efforts are (or should be) aimed at attaining the Kingdom of Heaven. Anything else you do in your day is a waste of time.

So when it comes to Liturgical services, and particularly the Liturgy of the Eucharist because it the most frequently attended, we come together as one body in Christ to pray together and to partake of the Sacrifice. It is essential that the prayers be understood. The end of the Divine Liturgy has a priest confessing before God and the people that what rests in front of him is the Body and Blood of Christ. How can a confession be something recited and not understood? Every altar deacon response instructs the congregation to do something. How can the deacon ask the people to do something if they don't understand what he's saying? Understanding is paramount in any service. I disagree that the Church Fathers "fought to transmit to us the Coptic language". The Ecumenical Councils were established to solidify the Orthodox faith - to ensure the faith wasn't corrupted by heretics at the time. St. Athanasius stood up at the Council of Nicea to condemn Arius, not to declare Coptic was the Liturgical language. Understanding is central - people need to understand their faith and their services to be able to live full spiritual lives.

Now, just because the majority of people don't understand Coptic today doesn't mean we have to get rid of it. Quite the contrary, because so many people don't understand it means we need to preserve it. I know a Greek Orthodox priest who learned Coptic in order to read two of St. Athanasius' letters which are only available in Coptic. We need to hold to Coptic so that we don't lose these riches. Furthermore, we all know and recognize that something is always lost in a translation. Really, the true meaning of any text can only be found in its original language. So all of a sudden, it becomes essential to preserve the Coptic language in order to keep a full understanding of what the Church Fathers wrote down in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Otherwise, we lose valuable pieces of our faith - potentially even losing an understanding of the Orthodox faith that are contained in these letters.

Of course, the Copts are in an ideal position to preserve the language, so the responsibility really is ours. And since the Divine Liturgy is served at least 3 times a week, and adequate translations are available, I can then feel confident that the priest understands what he is professing, even if he is saying it in a language I don't understand (or he understands). I can understand the instructions of the altar deacon because the translation is right there in front of me and I've attended the Divine Liturgy before. The Divine Liturgy seems to be an ideal place to have more Coptic, just because those resources are there and the frequency of the service itself.

When we look deeper, specifically to the Midnight Praise, we see mere beauty when the hymns are performed in Coptic. Each verse in Aripsalin is poetry in Coptic, in how each verse rhymes and has similar meter (rhythm), and also how each verse begins with consecutive letters in the Coptic alphabet. What an ingenious way to get the believers to memorize the hymn verse for verse! If contemporary English scholars don't modernize Shakespearean english so that everyone can understand his plays more clearly, then we shouldn't be so quick to dump Coptic and be in danger of losing the beauty and meaning of these hymns.

I don't want to take the Shakespearean example too far. Notice that even the composers of the Coptic hymns recognized the needs of the people (that they couldn't read, or that the hymns were long) and so served the people's needs appropriately by making the consecutive letters of the alphabet start off each verse. The focus is always the needs of the people. I still think that it is important that good, quality translations be available to the congregation, BUT ALSO, that the Liturgical services should be done in an understood language so that the people can lift up their hearts without having to read a book. A good balance needs to be found, which is probably dependent on each individual congregation.

I'm sure H.H. Pope Shenouda III, in all his wisdom, did not intend that we compromise the understanding of the congregation just to add more Coptic. It seems it was more a plea not to forget our duty.

Ultimately, it's not any hymn or language that lifts your eyes to heaven to thank the Saviour. It's the deep, deep understanding that you, the betrayer of your Creator, were the reason His Son had to come and die.

Hopefully we can all find a balance between understanding and preserving the language. (And I hope we can all realize that you can't teach the entire congregation Coptic overnight).

Please pray for me,

John


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Viva_XHMI

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 09:08 AM

Thank you guys for the mature opinions you have posted. I agree with many of them. I would like to add my personal expression for the situation. We, as copts, have 2 major responsibilities based on the Title of our church “Coptic Orthodox Church”:

1- To keep growing spiritually in the orthodox faith (Call this the “spiritual responsibility”). This might have weak or no realtion with the coptic language. Mainly, this is related to the “Orthodox Church” part of our church Title. Usually, a non-Egyptian convert joining our church keeps going in this responsibility with a 100% scale.

2- To keep our coptic **CULTURE**, going back to many hundreds or even thousands of years. Please note that I used the word “Culture” not “language”. Call this the “Culture responsibility”. This is related to the “Coptic” part in our church Title. A non-Egyptian convert keeps going in this responsibility according to their own will and capabilities. This has nothing to do with salvation.

Let’s talk about the second responsibility since, clearly, it’s the reason of this controversy. First what do we mean by “culture” ? This includes language, music, ARTS, traditions, attitudes,..

Are we responsible for this “Culture keeping” in our church? Yes, since otherwise, no one will take this responsibility for us. In this point I disagree with the opinion saying “we only care about Heaven”. If this were true, God would not have created us on earth. Otherwise, we will be like moslems who erase the national identity for the sake of religious identity. Believe me that’s why we (as Christian Egyptians) happen to be the responsible for our ancient culture since our moslem Egyptian brothers don’t care about it since their loyalty is to religion only.

Is the coptic language the only thing we should care about? No, it is only a part of our culture, there are music, arts,.. For example this applies to the debate of coptic vs western music. We are responsible not to let our ancient music fades in front of the more modern one.

The same applies for the arts: I am very glad that almost all coptic churches now have the beautiful icons in the coptic art. Btw I found many westerns who admire our coptic icons usually referring to them as “peaceful child-faced icons”. I get extremely sad in some new coptic churches who don’t put any coptic-art icon just to look very westernized (i.e. modern). Fortunately, only few coptic churches are trying to look westernized.

Briefly, we are both Orthodox Christians and Egyptians. Otherwise the name “Coptic Orthodox Church” will not be accurate. The thorny question now is “what about converts and kids? ”. My simple reply is look at all converts in Africa, do we impose on them some specific culture? No. Just they have the same faith as ours but they keep their traditions. Why this does not happen in western countries? Why should we be the ones who follow 100% the western culture? Either they make an independent church like the orthodox one in England (with their own western culture) or, if this is not possible, we make a *REASONABLE* balance in our churches between coptic and western cultures which is the case in most of the churches in immigration lands.

But when we totally omit the coptic language, the coptic icons and … , then we are not making *ANY* balance or, in other words, we are killing our coptic culture.

Sorry if my posting might seem to be political.

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Mathitis

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 12:11 PM

Viva, you're right.
The coptic culture shouldn't be manipulated or even gotten rid of. It should be kept, and even enforced so that it does not disappear.

When I said that coptic is a dead language, I was serious. Only a handful of people can literally use the coptic language as another conversational language, which is what I think is the right thing; If we should pray in coptic, we should really know it well (read, write, etc.).

John, i have limited vocabulary. lol.
Thats why it's a little hard for me to express what I am trying to say.


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PaulS

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posted on Nov 13, 2003 - 03:28 PM

Viva_XHMI,

I agree with you 100%, but respectfully add that I don't think the cultural question is as easy as you put it.

1. In the preservation of Coptic culture, how do we define Coptic culture as opposed to Egyptian culture? Many of the practices we engage in actually have roots in Egyptian society. How much of this is Coptic?

2. If new converts to the church do not have to worry about the preservation of culture, I submit to you that it is no different for Copts like me who are born in the USA and other Western countries. Since we never lived in Egypt, morality and culture is slightly different in our minds. This goes back to defining Coptic culture.

Otherwise, I enjoyed your opinion.


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