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posted on Dec 05, 2003 - 02:08 AM
I am a deacon and lately iv realized how a lot of times, many deacons sing alhan or serve in the alter more as a show then prayer and serving God. Even myself when i try so hard to concentrate on the liturgy or the hymns, my sinfull mind will wonder off and start thinking.. how are people viewing me? is this a problem with a lot deacons?
posted on Dec 05, 2003 - 02:34 AM
That happens to me all the time, and I'm still fighting it. That happens to me a lot of times when I'm saying a solo hymn that normally doesn't involve too much prayer, like the Coptic Pauline or something. A lot of times, when in front of a big congregation, my mind gets caught up in these silly things. I'm glad you brought up this topic, though. Good choice 
_________________
Your Servant,
Michael Fam
Saint Marina Coptic Orthodox Church
posted on Dec 05, 2003 - 11:42 AM
well,if i knew all hymns well, and was able to sing solo with some confidence, then i would join you guys here. i got no confidence when it comes to hymns and so on. 
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Dec 05, 2003 - 01:08 PM
Lately I just pray to God in church to control my pride and do not let me be swayed by the distractions in church. I bet you every mouallem has faced this problem. Yes they are very respected men and know so much alhan and about the church but anyone in that possession is tempted by pride so much. I know a few modern ones with huge ego problems. One thing though that frustrates me is that automatically when you say a new hymn the congregation thinks you are showing off. Honestly this is one reason why I left my church and went off far away to college to other churches in the south that respect hymns. People can be so ignorant sometimes. I think it is a blessing that we are learning new hymns everyday to be able to express ourselves and offer something new to God as it says "Sing a new song" in the Psalms. It is even more of a blessing to what Albeir did in making his new khidmat Shamaas and revealing hymns that were hidden from us. I hope we can uncover more and restore a lot of hymns that mouallem Mikhail said were lost.
Petros
posted on Dec 05, 2003 - 08:18 PM
From petros04: One thing though that frustrates me is that automatically when you say a new hymn the congregation thinks you are showing off.
That's exactly what i was going to say. I often just don't say new hymns when i'm alone on it because of these reactons. But u know what, it helps if you have someone with you. These people should be thankfull that we are trying to preserve our hymns 
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt-
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 03:22 AM
I believe the only reason the congregation does not like the long hymns because as it is.. our liturgy is approximately 3 hours, adding long hymns that they don't know only makes it "boring" for them. but the congregation has to be told this is the taqs... this is how it is supposed to be.. the church over the years especially in America has slipped or passed a lot of the taqs because of time and knowledge .
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 04:00 AM
if they think its boring, then leave. they are comin oput of love of Jesus Christ, not to attend mass for name, na mean?
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 06:09 AM
i would like to say a few things...and comment on some stuff...personally, yes sometimes, my mind does wander, i am not a great deacon or a person who knows many hymns...but often, something like the following will happen to me...imagine you are in tasbeha or bright saturday or kiahk praise, and you sing a nice long hymn you like...Shere Ne Maria from the theotokia, or Evlogite or The burning bush or Tenen....and personally when i get into a hymn or when the group "gets into it", you tend to notice they get loud...like really loud sometimes...and then after you are like wow that was great...now, where we showing off ?? or did it feel good, because we were in the spirit...is really good and sometimes its hard to differentiate, because the reactions from those around you can help or hurt....i went off a little bit there sorry...getting back to what i wanted to say...about singing long hymns or new hymns or by ourselves...i am very much for preserving our faith, our hymns, our heritage...if it was up to me, i would petition colleges here in the U.S. to allow us to learn coptic in school..instead of latin or german or whatever....but at the same time, i do not remember exactly who said it, but it was one of the priests...but, its great to preserve hymns, but at same time, sing something the congregation knows....for example....lets say its Communion Time...and its during the month of Kiahk....i believe, i am not sure...one could say efempsha ghar....which is great and awesome, but assume for now that the congregation is ignorant and has no idea what it is....and maybe like 2-3 deacons know it....or they could sing a madeeha in arabic or something that the congregation knows...i disagree with bishboyman...the deacons duty is to serve yes, but in a way that best suits the congregation so that he brings them closer to God and the church...his duty is to bring them closer to God, to instruct them to pray....look at the seven short prayers...the Priest says "remember o Lord, etc etc.." the deacon inside responds "Pray for etc etc" he is instructing them how to pray and what to say....they respond with "Lord have mercy"...we need to best serve the congregation but at same time, not lose our beloved hymns and heritage...which is why, there should be a system to educate the congregation on the need for this preservation to pass it on to the next generation and the generation after....imagine this...would you rather pass down Tenen or Cemouti or Pekethronos to only like 4 or 5 deacons and they will hopefully do the same later on in life...or would you rather educate like 40 or 50 congregation members whom have the potential to pass down to their children ??? anyhows, i rambled long enough, my apologies if i offended anyone....God bless you all.
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 11:05 AM
Very good point Mike famous, as for the sugestions you mentioned about bringing the congregation close to God you should look at this forum:
http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-vie ... 333-.phtml
Theophilos suggested some nice solutions 
As for me, I understand everything you guys are saying and if it really irritates you just forget about it. That's what I try to do. However, you must also understand that people have different interests and that we can only pray in harmony if we can compromise.
God bless you all,
Kirollos
_________________
"Young people, enjoy your youth. Be happy while you are still young. Do what you want to do, and follow your heart's desire. But remember that God is going to judge you for whatever you do."
- Ecc 11:9 -
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 05:58 PM
About compromising: WE DO COMPROMISE ALL THE TIME, i mean after psalm 150 we usually say a hymn (pie oik, or another hymn for the feast or fast) and then we ALWAYS say taraniem in arabic that all the people know, and most of the deacons of my generation can't participate. Besides we don't even say half the hymns we could say in the mass (ie allie el korban, apenap shopi, apetjeek etc) I don't know what else we could compromise about, i mean what's left for us not to say????
_________________
Ps 119:9 Waarmede zal de jongeling zijn pad rein bewaren? Als hij dat houdt naar uw woord.
Ps 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
gb
-matt-
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 08:28 PM
Matt, the fact that you are not happy with what's happening shows that it's not a compromise. A compromise is an agreement between two or more parties where less is accepted than asked for... From this definition the word 'agreement' and 'accepted' are the most important.
I share the same view, Matt, but we also must look at it from a different point of view (like I told you before ). Me and you should really be happy with what we've done until now, shall I list everything we've done so far again? Some deacons in Egypt, the land where all the 'alhan' comes from, don't even get to chance to chant anything so I'm actually happy, or even better, thankful for all the opportunities we've had. I'm sure we're gonna have more opportunities in the near future
However, I do get your point. I'm also an alhan-lover like you and many other members on this site but we should try to be as humble as possible. I'm not saying I am. It took me a while to get over my frustration and realise what Paul, cyril and even you matt said about being humble (in the forum 'Problems'). It's just that when you get irritated once about something, its hard to get over your emotions that same second, hour or day for that matter.
Anyhow, I don't want to blab on too long. 
God bless you all,
Kirollos
(For those who haven't read the 'Problems' forum... here's the link: http://www.coptichymns.net/index.php?na ... sc&start=0 )
_________________
"Young people, enjoy your youth. Be happy while you are still young. Do what you want to do, and follow your heart's desire. But remember that God is going to judge you for whatever you do."
- Ecc 11:9 -
posted on Dec 06, 2003 - 10:22 PM
guys real quick...you go up there to pray to God...we all know we shouldn't show off....and we try very very hard to do so...yet as you guys say, people still accuse you of showing off...they can also say worse...if you take this as criticism than you actually care about what people say about you, which means you really aren't praying to God. If we all just pray and please ONLY God, we will be fine...this is something that a very very good deacon we have in Torrance told me and he is right. God bless guys
posted on Dec 07, 2003 - 09:00 PM
let them say whatever they want. Jesus warned us that oppositions will arise. One simple answer: no,i am not showing off, I am praisong Jesus". that should shut them up automitically.
_________________
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned. - Matthew 12:37
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
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