coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Kyrollos

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 03:03 AM

for example, psalm 120 could be psalm 121......how did this messed up counting occur??

Joined: Apr 16, 2003 | Posts: 184
Location: St. George & St. Rueiss COC Toronto, Ontario

Guest

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 03:50 AM

Kyrollos,

I hope someone else like JGreiss or Biboboy can correct me if I err, but I think this has to do with the whole Protestant versus Catholic Bible. As you know, when the Protestants came to print the Bible, they felt certain parts and books were not canonical ie. not inspired by the Holy Spirit to be the infallible Word of God. Essentially, almost all the books they excluded we as the Orthodox Church fully accept as deuterocanonical! (Meaning secondary to the Holy Bible but helpful and good for our spiritual lives).

This plays into the Book of Psalms as according to our Church canon, Psalm 151 is considered canonical and if you recall, we chant this on Bright Saturday as the first part of the service. You will find this in the American Revised or Revised Standard versions of the Bible. They will also have all the other books which the Protestants consider Apocryphal (Book of Tobit, 1 and 2 Maccabees etc.)

So, depending on what Bible translation your Agpeya referenced, the psalm number would differ.

I hope this explains something.

Mina.

|

jgreiss

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 04:19 AM

Mina,

You're definitely right about the Protestants not accepting Psalm 151, but this isn't the cause for the strange numbering.

The Protestant translations are based on the Hebrew Masoretic text (70 A.D.) and separate Psalm 9 into Psalms 9 and 10. However, the Orthodox translate from the Greek Septuagint (LXX) which Jesus used, it isn't split up. So you'll see that in NKJV (for ex.) what we call Psalm 50 in the Agpeya is actually Psalm 51.

Later on at Psalm 147, the opposite happens. In the Masoretic text, Psalm 147:1-11 is Psalm 146 in LXX, and the rest is Psalm 147, and so the numbering becomes the same again. So by Psalm 150, both versions are the same.

Summary:

NKJV Psalm 9 and 10 = LXX Psalm 9
from this point on, the LXX numbering is always one behind the NKJV
NKJV Psalm 147:1-11 = LXX Psalm 146 and NKJV Ps. 147:11-20 = LXX Psalm 147
at Psalm 148, they are both the same

_________________
John
Administrator for the Spiritual Library and Newsletter
coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Questions? Comments? Criticism? Send them here.

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 147

Guest

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 04:28 AM

Thanks John. Good thing to know.

Can we cautiously ask which numbering scheme is more historically and canonically accurate?

|

jgreiss

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 05:24 AM

Cautiously...(given the heightened sensitivity of the Jews these days)

We know Jesus read from the Septuagint, so this is what church Tradition has taught us to use. This was the Greek translation which would have definitely been used in Hellinized Egypt as well. It is the source of Scripture that the Liturgical services also quote from. The Jews eventually rejected the LXX because of its widespread use among the Christians. Since the Masoretic was compiled over the 5th to 10th centuries, there is no reason for the Church to have adopted it as its OT source. By then, everything had already been in place.

Note the 70 A.D. date I quoted above wasn't for the Masoretic text - I was thinking of something else.

John

_________________
John
Administrator for the Spiritual Library and Newsletter
coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Questions? Comments? Criticism? Send them here.

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 147

Guest

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 05:28 AM

OK.. that makes sense. Thanks John.

PS: Is this the same John Greiss who attended/attends the Theological College in London via Paltalk?

|

ThomasSimmons

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 09:15 AM

btw, it is not only in Psalms where the difference between Masoretic and LXX texts are evident. There are many places in Job and a number of the Prophets where the verse numbering is quite different.

_________________
Thomas
"I bind unto myself this day the strong Name of the Trinity; By invocation of the same, the Three-in-One and One-in-Three."
<i> - from The Breastplate of Saint Patrick </i>

Joined: Feb 10, 2004 | Posts: 63
Location: Westmoreland, New Hampshire USA

ThomasSimmons

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 09:27 AM

folks,

Here's something I put together a few years ago which has been used on several websites of EO churches in the US. Hopefully it helps with the Psalm numbering, the place of the Deutercanonicals as Scripture, and other questions about textual variations between Orthodox and Judeo-Protestant versions:

Edited by Admin jgreiss

Thomas' article that appeared here can now be found in our Spiritual Library. Read it here.

_________________
Thomas
"I bind unto myself this day the strong Name of the Trinity; By invocation of the same, the Three-in-One and One-in-Three."
<i> - from The Breastplate of Saint Patrick </i>

Joined: Feb 10, 2004 | Posts: 63
Location: Westmoreland, New Hampshire USA

Raouf2430

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 07:05 PM

Dear Thomas,

Thank you for the article! I read somewhere that the Masoretic text itself was a translation from an older Hebrew version and that this translation took place well after the LXX translation. As such, even though the Masoretic text is based on the Hebrew, it is not as ancient a translation as the LXX, giving credence to the opinion that the LXX is indeed an older, more accurate rendering.

Can you confirm this and possibly elaborate if I got it wrong?

Thank you!

In Christ,
Raouf

Joined: Jan 08, 2004 | Posts: 199
Location: San Diego, California

ThomasSimmons

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 08:15 PM

Several families of manuscripts accompanied the Jews fromBabylon back to Palestine under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel. At this time, they were not word-for-word consistent, nor were they numbered. Jews referred to entire passages by quoting the first verse of that passage (which is why, I believe, Christ says, "My God, my God, why hast thour foraken me?" on the cross. To any Jew listening, that would be the way to refer them to Psalm 22, which describes the crucifixion).

The Septuagint was produced by Jews, in the Greek language, in Alexandria during the intertestamental period (which made sense, because Greek was the general language of the eastern mediterranean ever since Alexander's Empire, even among Jews).

That version was fairly standardized and complete before the Incarnation. The Henrew language versions remained at variances with each other. At the Rabbinical Council of Jamnia in 90 AD, the Rabbis threw out the LXX, and adopted the Hebrew language texts, which were older, BUT, which were not standardized. Also, according to written evidence we have from Justin Marytyr and St. Ireneaus, they also literally excised passages from Jeremiah, Habakkuk, and the Psalms that they felt were too "messianic."

It would be several centuries later that the Masoretes worked to take the various Hebrew texts and standardizes them and number the chapters and verses. So, both the Masoretic texts and the LXX are based on very old texts, but the LXX was standardized quite early, while the various Hebrew language texts took several more centuries and sufferred some "cutting and pasting."

Hope that answers your question

_________________
Thomas
"I bind unto myself this day the strong Name of the Trinity; By invocation of the same, the Three-in-One and One-in-Three."
<i> - from The Breastplate of Saint Patrick </i>

Joined: Feb 10, 2004 | Posts: 63
Location: Westmoreland, New Hampshire USA

Raouf2430

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 08:25 PM

Thank you Thomas! Since there were various Hebrew manuscripts from which the Masoretic text drew a "standardized" text, do we know anything about the Hebrew text which was the basis of the LXX translation? In other words, was there any standard Hebrew text which was the basis of the LXX or was it a translation from a veriety of Hebrew texts which the LXX translators sifted through and picked based on some sort of criteria?

In Christ,
Raouf

Joined: Jan 08, 2004 | Posts: 199
Location: San Diego, California

ThomasSimmons

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 09:55 PM

Raouf,

I honestly can't answer that question, and I don't know if anyone actually knows. I <i>do</i> know that some Proestants have claimed that the LXX writers were the original writers of the Deuterocanonical books, but that has been disproved by the fact that fragments from every one of them have been foundin Aramaic and Hebrew among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

While not a direct answer to your question, I refer you to St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing (<b>"Against Heresies"</b> before the end of the 2nd Century:

"For before the Romans possessed their kingdom, while as yet the Macedonians held Asia, Ptolemy the son of Lagus, being anxious to adorn the library which he had founded in Alexandria, with a collection of the writings of all men, which were [works] of merit, made request to the people of Jerusalem, that they should have their Scriptures translated into the Greek language. And they (for at that time they were still subject to the Macedonians) sent to Ptolemy seventy of their elders, who were thoroughly skilled in the Scriptures and in both the languages, to carry out what he had desired. But he, wishing to test them individually, and fearing lest they might perchance, by taking counsel together, conceal the truth in the Scriptures, by their interpretation, separated them from each other, and commanded them all to write the same translation. He did this with respect to all the books. But when they came together in the same place before Ptolemy, and each of them compared his own interpretation with that of every other, God was indeed glorified, and the Scriptures were acknowledged as truly divine. For all of them read out the common translation [which they had prepared] in the very same words and the very same names, from beginning to end, so that even the Gentiles present perceived that the Scriptures had been interpreted by the inspiration of God. And there was nothing astonishing in God having done this: He who, when, during the captivity of the people under Nebuchadnezzar, the Scriptures had been corrupted, and when, after seventy years, the Jews had returned to their own land, then, in the times of Artaxerxes king of the Persians, inspired Esdras the priest, of the tribe of Levi, to recast all the words of the former prophets, and to re-establish with the people the Mosaic legislation.

Since, therefore, the Scriptures have been interpreted with such fidelity, and by the grace of God, and since from these God has prepared and formed again our faith towards His Son, and has preserved to us the unadulterated Scriptures in Egypt, where the house of Jacob flourished, fleeing from the famine in Canaan; where also our Lord was preserved when He fled from the persecution set on foot by Herod; and [since] this interpretation of these Scriptures was made prior to our Lord's descent [to earth], and came into being before the Christians appeared: for our Lord was born about the forty-first year of the reign of Augustus; but Ptolemy was much earlier, under whom the Scriptures were interpreted; [since these things are so, I say, ] truly these men are proved to be impudent and presumptuous, who would now show a desire to make different translations, when we refute them out of these Scriptures, and shut them up to a belief in the advent of the Son of God. But our faith is steadfast, unfeigned, and the only true one, having clear proof from these Scriptures, which were interpreted in the way I have related; and the preaching of the Church is without interpolation. For the apostles, since they are of more ancient date than all these [heretics], agree with this aforesaid translation; and the translation harmonizes with the tradition of the apostles. For Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Paul, and the rest successively, as well as their followers, did set forth all prophetical [announcements], just as the interpretation of the elders contains them...."

_________________
Thomas
"I bind unto myself this day the strong Name of the Trinity; By invocation of the same, the Three-in-One and One-in-Three."
<i> - from The Breastplate of Saint Patrick </i>

Joined: Feb 10, 2004 | Posts: 63
Location: Westmoreland, New Hampshire USA

Raouf2430

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 10:05 PM

Thank you again Thomas!

Joined: Jan 08, 2004 | Posts: 199
Location: San Diego, California

jgreiss

posted on Feb 20, 2004 - 10:58 PM

Part of the OT Pseudoepigrapha (not canonical, not really Apocryphal) contains the "Letter of Aristeas" and supposedly recounts the entire story of the LXX.

VERY BRIEFLY:

Demetrius of Phalerum, the president of the King Ptolemy's library, received vast sums of money, for the purpose of collecting together, as far as he possibly could, all the books in the world. He told the king that the Jewish books were worth having, but they needed to be translated.

So the king wrote the following letter to the Jewish High Priest:

King Ptolemy sends greeting and salutation to the High Priest Eleazar....(a lot of irrelevant stuff) I have determined that your law shall be translated from the Hebrew tongue which is in use amongst you into the Greek language, that these books may be added to the other royal books in my library. It will be a kindness on your part and a regard for my zeal if you will select six elders from each of your tribes, men of noble life and skilled in your law and able to interpret it, that in questions of dispute we may be able to discover the verdict in which the majority agree, for the investigation is of the highest possible importance. I hope to win great renown by the accomplishment of this work. I have sent Andreas, the chief of my bodyguard, and Aristeas - men whom I hold in high esteem - to lay the matter before you and present you with a hundred talents of silver, the firstfruits of my offering for the temple and the sacrifices and other religious rites. If you will write to me concerning your wishes in these matters, you will confer a great favour upon me and afford me a new pledge of friendship, for all your wishes shall be carried out as speedily as possible. Farewell.

To this, Eleazar replied,

Eleazar the High priest sends greetings to King Ptolemy his true friend. My highest wishes are for your welfare and the welfare of Queen Arsinoe your sister and your children. I also am well. I have received your letter and am greatly rejoiced by your purpose and your noble counsel. I summoned together the whole people and read it to them that they might know of your devotion to our God. I showed them too the cups which you sent, twenty of gold and thirty of silver, the five bowls and the table of dedication, and the hundred talents of silver for the offering of the sacrifices and providing the things of which the temple stands in need. These gifts were brought to me by Andreas, one of your most honoured servants, and by Aristeas, both good men and true, distinguished by their learning, and worthy in every way to be the representatives of your high principles and righteous purposes. These men imparted to me your message and received from me an answer in agreement with your letter. I will consent to everything which is advantageous to you even though your request is very unusual. For you have bestowed upon our citizens great and never to be forgotten benefits in many (ways). Immediately therefore I offered sacrifices on behalf of you, your sister, your children, and your friends, and all the people prayed that your plans might prosper continually, and that Almighty God might preserve your kingdom in peace with honour, and that the translation of the holy law might prove advantageous to you and be carried out successfully. In the presence of all the people I selected six elders from each tribe, good men and true, and I have sent them to you with a copy of our law. It will be a kindness, O righteous king, if you will give instruction that as soon as the translation of the law is completed, the men shall be restored again to us in safety. Farewell.

From this, we see that the Jewish high priest sent along the copies of the Jewish writings that were to be translated. Whatever the source of the transcripts, it was obviously official enough to be regarded by the High Priest and and 72 elders as the official Hebrew texts.

I was going to include the rest of the story, but this post is getting long.

John

_________________
John
Administrator for the Spiritual Library and Newsletter
coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Questions? Comments? Criticism? Send them here.

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 147