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VerenaRizg

posted on May 13, 2004 - 01:51 AM

Heyyy...

I have some questions that i dont really know how to word....but I'm gonna try my best....I'm kinda in need of some help, so any would be appreciated.

So I'm here, listenin to Anba Angaelos' lecture on prayer....and I'm still a little lost.

We talk alot about prayer, and the strength and passion in prayer......but what if you dont feel or yet alone GET it? You "pray" but sometimes you honestly cant genuinely feel that you're talkin to your God......or maybe you cant honestly believe that He's listenin....?

I dunno...Anba Angaelos said that "prayer reassures and prayer comforts"....but it must be 'done with understanding'. "Prayer is a conversation..."

annnnnnnnnnd so what if comforts sometimes but you dont understand why? or dont undertsand that it is a conversation and not just you talkin to God.

Something else I just feel like askin....if you look at random things (ie. nature or children...) and think "wow" (reffering to God) is that considered prayer?

And one more thing...then I'll stop, I promise ....
Is it wrong to pray if you dont genuinely want to?

Now, I cant even count how many times Ive asked these questions to different people....but Ive never been able to honestly say 'aiight i get it'....
It may be because it's hard to understand me.....if Ive confused you, my bad....if i havent yet-help a sista out

take care, keep smilin....God Bless

-Verena

Joined: Nov 30, 2003 | Posts: 503

Mathitis

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:07 AM

We talk alot about prayer, and the strength and passion in prayer......but what if you dont feel or yet alone GET it? You "pray" but sometimes you honestly cant genuinely feel that you're talkin to your God......or maybe you cant honestly believe that He's listenin....?

Just keep praying. Everything in it due time.


Something else I just feel like askin....if you look at random things (ie. nature or children...) and think "wow" (reffering to God) is that considered prayer?

From what I've been taught, it isn't prayer, but accepting and appreciating God's work. The other side would be complaining, since you wouldn't be appreciating God's work.


And one more thing...then I'll stop, I promise ....
Is it wrong to pray if you dont genuinely want to

It is wrong, since you are not doing it out of your own will, but being forced to it. Did Jesus ever force Matthew to follow Him? All Jesus did was tell him to "Follow Me". If Matthew didn't want to, He would've found somebody else. Just like the young prince, Jesus never forced him to pick up the cross and follow Him.


Whenever I pray to God, I treat Him like a friend, since I know I am conversating better with Him. All these guidelines that the church gives, I don't focus on them too long, or else it would be somebody else's prayer, not my own.

Hope this helps,
Matt

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CopticSoldier

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:13 AM

Hi Verena,

I'm assuming here that this isn't a continuous problem but it may only happen to you at periods where you feel very low? There are a number of factors that could effect this.

Firstly let me set down the true nature of prayer. You state that it is an act of love sooooooooo logically in the first place its nature is not to be something that we use to ask for things (at least originally). As in the garden we had no lack and nor do the angels and since we fell we had need so God in His mercy allows us to ask for things we need.

In the light of this we always start prayers with thanksgiving as an open aknowledgdement of God's goodness, this coupled with praise is the true nature of prayer.

We can understand this from how we approach God in prayer. God in love calls us continually to be closer to Him and as an act of submission in love we submit and allow Him to open our hearts up. This takes a huge amount of submission done in faith, trusting our hearts and salvation to God who is ever faithful. It is in light of this that the whole nature of prayer is outlined that prayer is a way that we lay down our lives to become natural lovers.

Our lives are driven by ego which is selfishness and love makes us proactive in seeking the best for others so these are opposing forces. In repentance we repent from selfishness and seek to get humility which is to centre the whole purpose for our being around Christ, that we live for Him and His will and not our own and the logical fulfillment of this is love. That is why the true nature of prayer is thanksgiving and praise, which always comes first.

To love God means doing good when there is no personal benefit and without even being asked. This is mirrored in the nature of praise and thanksgiving.

H.H. the thankful person never forgets a favour, ever. God wants us to be thankful and not take His love for granted. Just as God is a natural giving lover, he wants us to be the same.

Thanksgiving is the answer to your problem.

Sooooooo, these prayers without faith. This can happen as a result of a lack of thanksgiving. When God does something good, we should remember it and then we will have faith in God's ability to do it again. In this way our trust builds and we start to believe and be thankful not just for things we see but things we can't see and problems we don't know about that God solves before they ever reach us. As St. Paul says, we are lead by faith not sight.

If we have faith we always have peace. Try to always see that in faith every good thing that comes to you, however small is from God and is an act of His love that we don't deserve. Also very righteous people always thank God for both good and bad things because they know that as St. Paul says all things work for good for those that love God.

Unfortunatly no matter how many posts like this people write, low points must happen. They happen so that we can build faith because we see how doubtful we are and then God comes and saves the day so we trust Him, in this way we learn that even the bad things are an act of God's mercy.

Keep St. Pauls beautiful words in Philippians in your heart always:

Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Its one of the warmest and nicest verses and St. John Chrysostom actually calls it a kind of medicine.

I hope this helps...

God bless you,

CS

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EgyTony

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:25 AM

Mathitis i disagree on the fact that it's a sin to pray if you don;t genuinly want to...
If you don't pray and read the Bible every day u should confess about it, and of course you wont genuinly want to especially in the beginning and even for people who are "veterans" of prayer because the devil isn't going to leave you alone, feelings of not wanting to and boredom and not feeling it or understanding it are all from the devil and even in 1 Corinthians Ch. 12 when St. Paul refers to the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the last part of verse 3 he says "...and no one can confess that Jesus is Lord without being guided by the Holy Spirit..."
even your faith is a GIFT from God which you must ask for....if you don't pray and "conversate" with God everyday how will you increase in your spiritual life and how will you obtain the faith needed to understand what prayer really is, and how will you fight off the devil without prayer and asking of help from God
sure the devil will fight you with feelings of doubt, boredom, no understanding, blindness of heart, numbness of mind (by this i mean not being able to logically fathom you are having a conversation with God that He is listening to whatever it is you're saying)
You can not recieve faith, hope, true love, gifts of the Holy Spirit without asking...when you ask for faith, you obviously know u need it, but u dont feel it because you dont have it u still have to ask for it, however when you do ask and God grants you this special gift you will be happy you struggeled with praying with a blind heart and forcing yourself to do what your body does not want u to do...in the Bible it says in Romans chapter 12 "...offer yourselves as a living sacrafice to God..." whats a sacrafice? whats a living sacrafice? its a struggle you will sacrafice many things and it says also in the same chapter verse 2 "...do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind" so God grants you this understanding but you have to ask and when you do you will begin to pray with understanding and with an open heart full of faith and love and will slowly realize the gift of prayer and its affect in your life

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Mathitis

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:30 AM

From EgyTony:Mathitis i disagree on the fact that it's a sin to pray if you don;t genuinly want to...
If you don't pray and read the Bible every day u should confess about it

That's true, since laziness is a sin. But I never mentionned anyhting about reading the Gospel and not praying. I was just talking about prayer, and only prayer.

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EgyTony

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:44 AM

no i know, i just thought id throw idea of reading the Bible in there since usually they go hand in hand, since prayer is you talking to God and then the Bible is God speaking to you...you see my reasoning on that?

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Mathitis

posted on May 13, 2004 - 02:49 AM

Yes I do. Makes sense, but I never mentionnned the bible, dont forget that.

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EgyTony

posted on May 13, 2004 - 03:21 AM

this is true, Amen.

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Mathitis

posted on May 13, 2004 - 03:23 AM

But I still have to agree with you no matter what. You are right about the bible part.

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CopticSoldier

posted on May 13, 2004 - 04:35 AM

My understanding was it is important for a person to force themselves to pray as an act of submission. H.H. once wrote that you have to do it in the begining and God who sees our struggle will grant that the struggle becomes sweet. Like the Lord said My burden is easy and My yoke is light.

CS

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VerenaRizg

posted on May 13, 2004 - 06:21 PM

Hi Verena,

I'm assuming here that this isn't a continuous problem but it may only happen to you at periods where you feel very low?


you assumed correctly : o )

thanks you guys for all your help over here....i appreciate it

take care, keep smilin....pray for me please

-Verena

Joined: Nov 30, 2003 | Posts: 503

CopticSoldier

posted on May 13, 2004 - 09:37 PM

Hi Verena,

you assumed correctly : o )

I highly recommend you get the Orthodox Prayer life by Fr Matthew the poor. It is an incredibly insightful book that goes through all these problems and is a great book for lifting and encouraging us when we are low.

God bless you,

CS

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Raouf2430

posted on May 13, 2004 - 09:56 PM

From VerenaRizg:
And one more thing...then I'll stop, I promise ....
Is it wrong to pray if you dont genuinely want to?

-Verena

Dear Verena,

No! On the contrary, there is no greater expression of love than to stand before God and say "My Lord at this moment I don't have any feelings towards You, my spirit is dry, and yet I stand before You to thank You, glorify You, and enteat You...".

In other words, disregard your feelings, which are unruly and unpredictable! Pray from your Will. In the marriage union, sometimes feelings are one way or another and yet the love is steady because it exists at the level of the Will rather than simply the emotions. It is a testament to growth and depth in a relationship.

Listen to what St. Macarius the Great says:

The man who desires to come to the Lord and to be found worthy of eternal life should force himself to every good work and to fulfilling all the commandments of the Lord because of sin that is present with him… One must force himself to prayer when he has not spiritual prayer; and thus God, beholding him thus striving and compelling himself by force, in spite of an unwilling heart, gives him the true prayer of the Spirit.

May the Lord give us all the spirit of prayer.

In Christ,
Raouf

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VerenaRizg

posted on May 13, 2004 - 11:28 PM

Raouf and CS,

Thanks for your advice and support.....

Now, I cant even count how many times Ive asked these questions to different people....but Ive never been able to honestly say 'aiight i get it'.... It may be because it's hard to understand me.....if Ive confused you, my bad....if i havent yet-help a sista out

take care, keep smilin....God Bless

-Verena


"aiight.....i get it"

: o )

Thanks again.....

take care...keep smilin...

-Verena

Joined: Nov 30, 2003 | Posts: 503

timotheoc

posted on May 15, 2004 - 03:08 AM

just a quick thought...prayer is hard without belief and if you dont believe there is no way you can pray so first thing you have to check is your faith, you have to re-assure urself that God does exist because i see that as a source of most problems because remember if your a Christian and you die you are safe either way, whether God exists or not, and this is the beginning of faith, this then leads to you loving God, feeling his presence but again you need the base then you can build
peace

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Mathitis

posted on May 15, 2004 - 03:44 AM

About the reassuiring yourself, never ask God for a sign. Taht, my friend, is the work of the devil. If you want to make sure you have faith, here are som verses I say you should check out.

Psalms 8:146
Proverbs 30:5
Matt 7:7-12
Luke 17:5-6
John 20:24-31
Romans 4:13-25
Hebrews 11:1
1 John 5:13-15

Hope this helps,
Matt

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CopticSoldier

posted on May 15, 2004 - 10:07 AM

Hi Mathetis,

In some ways I agree with you and in others I disagree. A very natural part of the process of faith is letting go of the restraints of our intellect which is something that God happily does. In this case a person believes God can do things but their intelligence is a burden because it creates a conflict if that person needs to know HOW its possible.

Take for example Abraham. On may occasions his intellect got in the way of his faith when he used to make suggestions to God about taking Ishmael as the source of His chosen race. God allows us to do this to take us beyond the realms of what we know. Also lets not forget Gideon and how God allowed him to ask for a couple of signs.

Then there is also the story of St. Simeon who picked up and blessed the Lord in the temple. He was one of the original translators of the septugint some 300 years before. Our tradition tells us as he got to the line that says a virgin shall concieve, he was filled with fear. He thought that the emperor would kill him becuase it sounds like a fairy tale so he was about to change it to young women and an angel appeared to him to tell him that he should write it as it is and that he would live to see the Lord.

This was not a doubt, he believed God could do it but his mind couldn't comprehend how it was possible because our faith leads our intellect and God has to sometimes come to us to resolve the conflict. These people are genuine seekers and God is happy to give them signs.

God bless you,

CS

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Mathitis

posted on May 15, 2004 - 02:43 PM

It is written in the Hole Bible that asking for a sign is the devil's work. God gave all the people you mentionned signs without them asking. In the case of Gideon, God allowed him to ask for signs, other than that, it would not be so. I know about St.Simeon, and his famous story, but he never asked for a sign.

God bless you as well,
Matt

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CopticSoldier

posted on May 15, 2004 - 03:29 PM

We can ask for signs, that is different. Its just depends on how and why you do it. God calls man continually and man can call back. In the cases I gave there was no asking for a sign by word but there was in the heart. But compare this to st. Moses the black? Its a case of if we put a restraint on God by saying God come to me in such and such a way then thats wrong because we try and force God to reveal Himself in away that is convient for us which is a hinderance rather than a help.

There is nothing wrong with asking for signs, we do it everytime we get a job offer, seek a partner and so on. The problem isn't the signs themselves but that we expose ourselves to pride if we don't do it in faith. That is why God makes us wait a long time before revealing His will. Signs are not the problem, we are.

God bless you,

CS

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Mathitis

posted on May 15, 2004 - 03:34 PM

Soldier, you got it all wrong! When you ask for a sign, you are doubting God's presence. It's like saying "God, prove to me that you are there."

When Jesus was being tempted on the mount, He told the devil, which applies to us as well, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God."

This is my brother's response to this.

Matt

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CopticSoldier

posted on May 15, 2004 - 03:42 PM

Huh? I'm not talking about doubting God's presence here. I'm saying that its okay to need some kind of tangible comfort, strengthening or building of faith, that is different.

Our faith on earth is not perfect, it is a very dynamic entity that grows and shrinks according to the tribulations that happen. If we seek God He reveals Himself to us. He may do so with a sign and He may not. The issue here is not signs or proof of God's existance but a reason to keep on struggling. Look at the example of Elijah when he prayed because he thought he was the only one left on earth who worshipped God and because Elijah was seeking God, God gave him comfort.

God bless you,

CS

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Mathitis

posted on May 15, 2004 - 07:15 PM

From CopticSoldier:Huh? I'm not talking about doubting God's presence here. I'm saying that its okay to need some kind of tangible comfort, strengthening or building of faith, that is different.

Our faith on earth is not perfect, it is a very dynamic entity that grows and shrinks according to the tribulations that happen. If we seek God He reveals Himself to us. He may do so with a sign and He may not. The issue here is not signs or proof of God's existance but a reason to keep on struggling. Look at the example of Elijah when he prayed because he thought he was the only one left on earth who worshipped God and because Elijah was seeking God, God gave him comfort.

God bless you,

CS

CS,
I lost you lol. I am telling you, asking for a sign is a sin; it's the devil's work. The devil is making you doubt God.

If we do seek God, we will find him, as you said earlier. Elijah was seeking God, not asking God to reveal something. That's the difference, and I am talkign about God revealing something, and not seekign him.

Two very different things discussed by two very different egyptian minds... not a good combination lol.

Matt

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VerenaRizg

posted on May 15, 2004 - 07:32 PM

LOL....


Two very different things discussed by two very different egyptian minds... not a good combination lol.


thanks again for all your help here...you guys've been wicked

take care, keep smilin n thanks again

-Verena

Joined: Nov 30, 2003 | Posts: 503

mariam

posted on May 16, 2004 - 08:10 PM

Hey,
matt, how can you say that a sign from God is the work of the devil?
I think that if your using this sign to harm someone, which is against God, then it is not truly divine, but signs which are for good causes provide comfort to the believer. Isnt the cross a sign of God's presence? That is one sign that is always visible to us. Signs are great things... they direct your path even... i still cant imagine what u mean when u said if you as for sign, thats a sin or somehting...
Yes, God is always there, and you can't see Him physically, but a sign to you may not be a sign to another person. I think its a mental thing. I think everyone sees signs and knows they are from God because of the situation they are in. These signs comfort them, or if it's not a visible sign, it can be that someone has just solved a problem or has figured a way to get over somehting.. these are all signs of God's presence... am i on the same page as you?

Your sister in Christ,

Mariam.

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Mathitis

posted on May 16, 2004 - 08:23 PM

Did I ever ask for the corss to be a sign of God's presence? We adopted that sign because it reminds us that we are saved, and what Jesus went through.

But if I asked something like "God, I need some proof of your existance." This is a sign of our doubting in God's faith, and this is the devil's work.

Now you people see my point?

Forgive me if i offended anybody,
Matt

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