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posted on May 16, 2004 - 08:59 PM
Matt, when we ask for a sign, we do not ask for God's presence, we ask for God's guidance. i think ur point weak lol.. it is a given that God is everwhere al the time..
u did not offend anyone lol. ur a good boy.
_________________
God is the Lord and He has revealed Himself to us. Blessed is He who cometh in the Name of the Lord.
posted on May 16, 2004 - 11:07 PM
From mariam:Matt, when we ask for a sign, we do not ask for God's presence, we ask for God's guidance. i think ur point weak lol.. it is a given that God is everwhere al the time..
u did not offend anyone lol. ur a good boy.
My point is weak? Usually, when you ask for guidance, you would ask for guidance, not a sign to tell God "prove to me Your presence". Am I right? I always ask for guidance, but never once did I say "God, give me a sign to show that You are listening" or anything of the sort.
it is a given that God is everwhere al the time..
You even said it yourself, God is Everywhere! Now, if I am a practising christian, yet I ask God to give me a sign to prove to me that He is around and that He exists, don't you think that this is wrong? I personally do, since you are letting the devil tamper with your faith and your beleifs.
Matt
And I am glad I didn't offend anybody 
"Blessed are those who have not seen yet have beleived."
John 20:29
posted on May 16, 2004 - 11:29 PM
From Mathitis:
My point is weak? Usually, when you ask for guidance, you would ask for guidance, not a sign to tell God "prove to me Your presence". Am I right? I always ask for guidance, but never once did I say "God, give me a sign to show that You are listening" or anything of the sort.
Well, I hate to argue, (psh, who am I kidding, I love to argue), but is there not a difference between saying,
"Lord, give me a sign, so I know that you are here!"
and saying,
"Lord, please give me a sign as guidance, so I can make the right decision!"
(Or something along those lines).
Of course it's not right to ask for a sign so that you know He's there, but is it wrong to ask for a sign as guidance?
posted on May 17, 2004 - 12:27 AM
From -Gabriel-:
Of course it's not right to ask for a sign so that you know He's there, but is it wrong to ask for a sign as guidance?
Even asking for a sign as guidance is wrong, since now you would be doubting the fact that God will meet your demands, if they are the good kinds of demands. If it is a bad thing that will hinder your faith or so, then God won't answer it, and do not be surprised at the fact that He doesnt answer it. If He doesn't answer something good a few days after you asked for it, then you just wait, since everything in due time.
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 12:59 AM
hey everyone, it's Andrew,Mathitis' brother,and i just have a few things i'd like to say about asking for signs.
First and foremost,asking for a sign is absolutely wrong....because,simply put,you're asking for PROOF of God's presence and let's be real for a minute,who are we to tempt our Lord or question him?
They say that the moment you doubt the word of God,that's the devil's works(yeah...i payed attention in sunday school 
)
There is no such thing as asking for a SIGN FOR GUIDANCE...n if you're convinced there is,the bottom line is you're STILL asking for a sign,which is wrong once again.But let's say you STILL decide to ask for a sign,doesn't that mean you're a little UNSURE about God's presence?
Hebrews 11:1 states: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, **THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN**.we do not SEE God,right or wrong?...*Gabriel,I know this is huge for you because you wanna be a lawyer 
)
Brethren,if you ask God for a sign,he simply will not give it to you....the Lord works in mysterious ways,all you need to do is put all your trust in Him.And tell me,if you ask for a sign and God does not grant you this sign,what happens to your faith then?I want you all to pay attention to that last line....if God does not give you a sign,does it mean that because he didn't do what you asked for he's not THERE?
Don't get offended,but I know of EXPERIENCE that you will not get a sign if you ask.What do you need a sign for?Do you not realize to what extent the Lord is ever-present?!His works are in everything,always!
If you pray,you're automatically seeking God's guidance.It takes time,but everything in due time.You will get signs,signs that you won't ask for in particular,all you need to do is be thankful and be AWARE of your blessings.
The Lord grants everything....when you are ready to accept Him into your heart
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:27 AM
Why not just ask God for guidance without the "sign"?
I think the confusion here is on the word "sign" itself. A sign doesn't nessesarily mean "proof", a sign can be an awakening or wake up call.
I believe in signs...I may not believe in askin for them, bes I believe that all the "little things" are signs and proof for us, reassurance (or witnessing) of his passion and guidance.
once again, if i confused you.....my bad
take care, keep smilin...please pray for me
-Verena
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:36 AM
hey "andrew",
I agree with you on everything. Id like to comment briefly:
To answer your question, I whole-heartedly believe, that when one says "Let Your will be done and not mine".. that right there is FAITH. And when deeeeep down, really deep, you wish for somehtign to turn out a certain way, only because its our nature to be biased, and then you dont get it, I still believe that whatever the outcoem was that it was God and only Him who did it.
Contrary to what you're saying, God wants you to reach out to Him habeeby with tears, so He can know that you love Him... It is in those critical times, that you logn for God's presence.. notthign about proving God exists... because its our belief that He is everywhere all the time.. can we go past this plz? lol
btw i am nto offended, i am just saying ur not lookign at the BIG picture. you're still tackling weak points.
Hebrew 11:1 is a most powerful verse.. yes i agree faith means believing without seein, no doubt bro. You see, in the logn run , from my family's experience, we have truly witnessed God's presence, its amazing! Faith brought us to see, it opened our eyes so to speak, and we could see Christ in what was happening.
In my previous replies, i was not referrign to askign God for a sign of his existence, btu I am turning to God, clenshing to him. For i know He is always definitely 100% there... and I am reachign out.
Hope that makes my point clearer.
Take care Matt and Andrew,
your sister in Christ,
Mariam
_________________
God is the Lord and He has revealed Himself to us. Blessed is He who cometh in the Name of the Lord.
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:37 AM
I think the problem is the misinterpretation of the word 'sign'. Some may pray for a sign and expect something to physically happen to show them the way, some may pray in hopes that they will suddenly just know.
Others will identify a sign to something like Jesus' cry of:
"Eloi, Eloi lama sabachtani?" (More commonly known as:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")
Perhaps asking God for anything at all is a sign, perhaps asking for something physical is. To ask for guidance from a sign can't be the work of the devil; you are requesting aid from the omniscience of the Lord.
I think the way you, Matt, are identifying sign is,
"Lord, show me your presence!"
That is the work of the devil; who are we to question God?
However, simply asking for guidance or advice, or for Him to help you by means of a sign; what's wrong with that?
_________________
"The angel answered, 'I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.'" - Luke 1:19
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:41 AM
Hi all,
I think this is a fairly redundant discussion for a few reasons.
1. God gives signs to build and encourage faith.
2. Prayer is an act of faith in the first place.
3. If I pray I try not to do so to put a restraint on God, I ask for help, not a sign. At no point has anyone on here stated that asking for signs is okay.
4. We can ask God for revelation (regarding who we should marry, etc) and He MAY do this in the form of a sign but ultimatly that is up to Him and it is our job to read whatever signals He may send in faith.
5. God uses signs to strengthen faith and without God communicating signs we will not know His will. I will differentiate here between signs as miracles or appearances of angels, etc and signs as in signals being a word from a priest or a parent given from God to you.
6. This is a result of God trying to guide us and without God being able to communicate in some way and without us being able to ask for that guidance (be it as a sign or otherwise) we'd be in a bit of a pathetic state wouldn't we?
7. I don't ask for signs because doing so promotes pride. That is one of the main issues because we make God obedient to us but if we ask for help in humility, He has ways of making His will known.
Time for breakfast now. DON'T ANY GO AND REPLY OR I'LL GO CRAZY!!!!!
God bless you all,
CS
_________________
Email me: droo@coptichymns.net
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:46 AM
What CopticSoldier said is true, in addition.
As Jesus said,
"He who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I ask you though, how would you consider the request of guidance in the FORM OF a sign being prideful?
_________________
"The angel answered, 'I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.'" - Luke 1:19
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:59 AM
Hi -Gabriel-,
The issue is not so much the asking but if it is actually answered. I'll recall a story...
I had a firend who once came to me at work and said that he once asked God to move a mountain like in the bible and he believed it would happen but it didn't and he said that he would have believed in God if it did happen.
I said to him that you can't really do things like that because you really need to allow God to come to you in the way that He chooses.
He then said awwww, but I wanted to move the mountain.
So I said that from his response we know that it was an act of pride because he didn't do it to get faith at all but because of his own desire.
If I go to God, I do it in love and humility and asking for direct signs is contary to that because I want God to conform to my will rather than my will to God's. In its purest form God's call is repentance and asking for something like this is not repentance.
I also told my friend and he agreed that in the end he would end up bleieveing that He was the one who moved the mountain because it would have come so easily. For this reason God can't answer these requests for our own good.
God bless you,
CS
posted on May 17, 2004 - 02:16 AM
You are both now contradicting yourselves.
Contrary to what you're saying, God wants you to reach out to Him habeeby with tears, so He can know that you love Him... It is in those critical times, that you logn for God's presence
Now you are saying that we need God only in critical times? What about in non-critical times? Another thing, I never mentionned anything about needing God, so do not bring it up, or else you will destroy this argument badly.
Gabby,
Sign, in my view, is like a deposit. If you make the deposit, then you know that you will buy it, and have nothing to fear. If you ask me, asking for a sign is like a deposit. With the sign, then you will know that God is there. It's as if He is making a official seal to you on a contract.
Look, don't ask for a sign. Ask for His help, but not for a sign. God sends callings, but he never sends a sign wyhen asked for.
Others will identify a sign to something like Jesus' cry of:
"Eloi, Eloi lama sabachtani?" (More commonly known as:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")
Gabby, explain to me how that is a sign? I do not see this as a sign, but more as a cry to God.
Hi all,
I think this is a fairly redundant discussion for a few reasons.
1. God gives signs to build and encourage faith.
2. Prayer is an act of faith in the first place.
3. If I pray I try not to do so to put a restraint on God, I ask for help, not a sign. At no point has anyone on here stated that asking for signs is okay.
4. We can ask God for revelation (regarding who we should marry, etc) and He MAY do this in the form of a sign but ultimatly that is up to Him and it is our job to read whatever signals He may send in faith.
5. God uses signs to strengthen faith and without God communicating signs we will not know His will. I will differentiate here between signs as miracles or appearances of angels, etc and signs as in signals being a word from a priest or a parent given from God to you.
6. This is a result of God trying to guide us and without God being able to communicate in some way and without us being able to ask for that guidance (be it as a sign or otherwise) we'd be in a bit of a pathetic state wouldn't we?
7. I don't ask for signs because doing so promotes pride. That is one of the main issues because we make God obedient to us but if we ask for help in humility, He has ways of making His will known.
Time for breakfast now. DON'T ANY GO AND REPLY OR I'LL GO CRAZY!!!!!
God bless you all,
CS
Signs are a bad thing to ask for! They show that you are doubting your faith in God.
CS,, you said that God uses signs to strengthen your faith. Youy can ask to do good in your tests, to know who you are to be married to, as you mentionned, CS, and you can take these as signs, but in fact you are asking God something to give you, and He gave it to you because He wants you to do good or to know who you are getting married to.
But if you ask Him to make a Saint appear before you, then forget it, since God will not do so. I saw St. Abanoub before, and I never asked to see a sign. God sent the saint to me as a blessing, and not as a sign.
What CopticSoldier said is true, in addition.
As Jesus said,
"He who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I ask you though, how would you consider the request of guidance in the FORM OF a sign being prideful?
Where did Pride ever come in?
In conclusion, asking a sign to see God's either presence or His help is not good, since you are letting doubt shadow your faith, and that's what the devil wants from you.
Hope this helps in any way, and please stick to one subject. We are talking about signs, not pride or anything else.
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 02:20 AM
If I go to God, I do it in love and humility and asking for direct signs is contary to that because I want God to conform to my will rather than my will to God's. In its purest form God's call is repentance and asking for something like this is not repentance.
EXACTLY!!!
This is what I am talking about!
CopticSoldier, where would I be without you?
posted on May 17, 2004 - 02:35 AM
Matt, I define sign as God's love for you, His comfort. You know what, recall the parable of the Talents. At the end the Master gave the talent from the third servant (who dug it in the ground and did nothign useful with it) to the first servant (who doubled his talents). This shows that God gives more to those who have already. God gives to those who have faith. So regardless if we are askign God in critical or non-critical times, God will give you more when you're happy and will have mercy when ur sad. I am nto sure if this parable if good enough to illusrate what m tryin to say.
Ok let's leave this poitn aside.
If you look at signs, i by no means mean physical signs,, i thought wer over that already man lol..
I mean signs as in God will guide me... Signs are rooted in faith.. Ihope at least thats clear to everyone. Without faith, signs r empty and can be attributed to other sources like devil, oneself, another god, etc. But my point is that when you ask for a sign, in good or in bad, on any case ya3ny, its not a bad thing. It proves more how much you want God to be part of whatever your goign through. It's nothign abotu wantign Gdo to do this or that for you.. it's lettign Him guide you.. "direct your paths"
My favourite verses of al times will set this clearer:
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
You see, by askign Him to be there in this situation.. by askign Him to guide you through a sign... means and proves without a doubt that you acknowledge His presence!!! IF anyone is contradicting themselves, its you lol.. with all due respect cuz ur saying if you ask for a sign, ur trying to prove God exists or not.. btu m saying askign for a sign means asking for guidance in a situation, whether it be good or bad.. and matt, i am positive that God wants you to willingly call out His name,, signs r in a way a form of prayer and call to God. Its nothign to do with proving God exists.
peace.
_________________
God is the Lord and He has revealed Himself to us. Blessed is He who cometh in the Name of the Lord.
posted on May 17, 2004 - 02:40 AM
SIGN= PROOF
When you're driving to Toronto from Montreal,you wonder if you're going in the right direction sometimes.THEREFORE,you look up to see a sign that says TORONTO X-miles.
this SIGN is PROOF that you're going on the right highway.
Now,I'm sorry to say it likes this Mariam, but I think the word *SIGN* itself has been abused on your behalf.
There's a distinct difference between a SIGN (which is something that you ask for when in doubt...as mentionned earlier,you look around for an actual SIGN that tells you where you're going...because you're not really sure if you're going the right way) and a BLESSING.Blessings are what we receive from God when we do something for Him, like service. Remember the fact that we had to do something for Him to give us the blessings.
Back to the example of the 3 servants and their talents, this has absolutely no purpose here, yet I will clarifiy it for you. The parable talks about blessings. The first two serants must have done alot of work to double their talents. God took care of the rest, and gave them cities to rule over.
I will relate this parable to the story of Lazarus. If God can raise Himself from the dead, don't you think He can move a simple boulder? He didn't though. He asked the people to move the boulder, and He rose Lazarus from the dead. This also shows that the people had to do their part, and God took care of the rest. Same thing with studying; you have to study to pull a 90% on the test, right? My dad always tells me this, so I thought I'd share the wealth.
This has nothing to do with signs whatsoever. Signs are not needed to prove God's existance. If you need a sign to prove God's either His listening to you or His presence, then your faith is terribly weak and forgive me for pointing this out.
Pray for me,
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 04:58 AM
Matt,
I am having trouble following your arguments, I have some bible verses and I want you to clarify you think they mean.
Mark 9:23-25 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, You dumb and deaf spirit, I charge you, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
Matthew 11:21 Woe unto you, Chorazin! woe unto you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Judges 6:17-24 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in your sight, then show me a sign that you talk with me. Depart not from here, I pray you, until I come unto you, and bring forth my present, and set it before you. And he said, I will tarry until you come again. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the meat he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. And the angel of God said unto him, Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto you; fear not: you shall not die. Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Judges 6:36-40 And Gideon said unto God, If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside it, then shall I know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said. And it was so: for he rose up early the next day, and squeezed the fleece together, and wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. And Gideon said unto God, Let not your anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me test, I pray you, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.
God bless you,
CS
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:06 PM
I don't see how these verses are in relation to this discussion. The one from Judges are not easy for me to understand, because I don't even know what the point of these stories are. Can you clarify them for me?
In the one you gave me from John, Jesus told the people to either beleive Him because He is in the Father and the Father in Him, or to beleive Him for His works' sake. Doing miracles and blessing people are not signs. They are blessins from God, and I've mentionnned that before.
In the passage from the Gospel of Mark, this also does not show signs. It is a miracle, and the man who was possessed asked God to help him in his unbeleif, and because of that faith, Jesus blessed him and took care of the demon. Not a single sign again.
This story can be related to the Roman Soldier who came to see Jesus to ask Him to heal his servant. As Jesus wanted to go to the roman's house and heal the servant, the soldier told Him not to, since the soldier has people under him, and whatever he says, the people under him do. He also told Jesus that if He said the word, his servant will be healed. Because of that, Jesus told him that his servant is healed. That roman soldier beleived in Christ, and it wasn't Jesus who healed the servant, but the soldier's faith. Everything is possible through God, and that roman soldier witnessed that. Once again, not a single sign.
God bless you,
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:10 PM
SIGN= PROOF
When you're driving to Toronto from Montreal,you wonder if you're going in the right direction sometimes.THEREFORE,you look up to see a sign that says TORONTO X-miles.
this SIGN is PROOF that you're going on the right highway.
mathitis this is what i said earlier:
Why not just ask God for guidance without the "sign"?
I think the confusion here is on the word "sign" itself. A sign doesn't nessesarily mean "proof", a sign can be an awakening or wake up call.
I believe in signs...I may not believe in askin for them, bes I believe that all the "little things" are signs and proof for us, reassurance (or witnessing) of his passion and guidance.
once again, if i confused you.....my bad
im out take care, keep smilin
-Verena
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:29 PM
One question,
Why would we need reasuring or witnessing(wake up calls) signs to know that Jesus has passion and guidance? Didn't He say "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"? If He really is the way, don't you think that The Spirit will tell us what to do?
All the stuff you are talking about are not signs, but blessings. I am glad you do not beleive in asking them, since it will do you no good. Jesus said on the mount "You shall not tempt the Lord your God", as in do not test Him to see if he will send you a sign.
And yes, the word "sign" has been used and abused over and over again lol.
God Bless you,
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 01:48 PM
Mathitis
Why would we need reasuring or witnessing(wake up calls) signs to know that Jesus has passion and guidance? Didn't He say "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"? If He really is the way, don't you think that The Spirit will tell us what to do?
This is personal, so its nothin you can disagree with cuz i go thru it....
I get lost so often n im sorry but if your lost-on a wrong road- you NEED a "sign" (lol, sorry) or guidance in order to get you back on track.
Or at least i do...when your faith is weak (like mine) you need to kind of be "taken by the hand"....you hear what im sayin?
("taken by the hand" can be thru other people, priests, saints or just incidents in your everyday life...)
thats all for now
take care, keep smilin
-Verena
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