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posted on May 17, 2004 - 02:25 PM
About the faith part, if it is weak, do not expect to get a sign when you are praying to God and askign for one. I do get what you mean, but if God send you a "sign" without asking, then it is not a sign, but a blessing to help you out. But if you test Him for a sign, do you think He wil lactually send you one?
posted on May 17, 2004 - 05:03 PM
Judges 6:17-24 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in your sight, then show me a sign that you talk with me. Depart not from here, I pray you, until I come unto you, and bring forth my present, and set it before you. And he said, I will tarry until you come again. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the meat he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. And the angel of God said unto him, Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto you; fear not: you shall not die. Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Judges 6:36-40 And Gideon said unto God, If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside it, then shall I know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said. And it was so: for he rose up early the next day, and squeezed the fleece together, and wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. And Gideon said unto God, Let not your anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me test, I pray you, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.
Two occasions where Gideon asked or a sign...
If now I have found grace in your sight, then show me a sign that you talk with me.
And Gideon said unto God, If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside it, then shall I know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said
Your thoughts?
God bless you,
CS
posted on May 17, 2004 - 05:05 PM
To me,
A sign is a blessing that God gives you. It cannot be asked for for the reasons mentionned above. It is something that God sends you to bless you. And the word "sign" to define it is not good. It is a blessing, and not a sign. A sign would be something like the example of the driving to Totonto one. A sign in that example tells you where you are going. A blessing is something that God sends you when He sees you are pure in heart or when He wants you to do something for Him.
Any more questions need to be clarified?
Matt
posted on May 17, 2004 - 09:59 PM
Mathitis,
All I gotta say is that like i said earlier, i dont believe in askin for signs, but i believe that God sends them. I also believe that God can send you signs to not do somethings that you otherwise may be tempted into doin.....and these "signs" or whatever you wanna call them, help you build strength and they literally do guide you. And....I dont find all of these are just "blessings".....
I believe that its Gods replies to your prayers (for guidance....not askin for it, but sayin that you need help) and I believe his time to speak to us back is through our everyday incidents.
Some, like the innocent face of a child, are blessings--we see God through them and in all they do. But when it comes to incidents that keep/drive you away from temptation-i believe those are more than just blessings. Those are what i see as signs.
Another example of what I call a sign is like when my sister was hospitalized last year. My sister is my angel.....straight up shes jus my baby...so when she was in, and there was not so much hope, i started to lose mine.
Till God worked his wonders through the little things I started to notice, like the perfect timing of the doctors findin her illness.....(had it been later...well we wont go there..) and everythin....it just fit. So when i started to lose my hope, i looked back at what I call "signs" and lo and behold Verena had her hope and faith.....and gradually (after a while...) the perfect health of here sister.
Right now, with my little friend with the brain tumour, Mathitis, shes what keeps me up.(Please continue to pray for her...her name is Monica) Her face and everythin she does literally guides me. He works through her. I think it would be a huge underestimate if i just called that a blessin.
anyways ive digressed...lol. hope i made my point somewhat clearer? lol
To sum everythin up.....i think we may have totally different definitions of the word "sign" 
take care, keep smilin....pray for me please
-Verena
posted on May 17, 2004 - 10:02 PM
From Mathitis:
Gabby, explain to me how that is a sign? I do not see this as a sign, but more as a cry to God.
That's my point exactly. Signs are seen as completely different things. This "cry to God", what is the difference between asking him "Why have you forsaken me?" and "Give me a sign." The answer can only come in the form OF a sign.
All prayers that ask for guidance are signs; you now say not to ask for signs, for He will provide them. But if you do not ask for guidance, which is essentially the same thing, then you are basically rejecting God. Which do you think is more of a sin:
The request of guidance?
or
The shunning of guidance?
posted on May 18, 2004 - 01:26 AM
If you do not ask for guidance, you are rejecting God? Since when? You reject God by not opening the door for Him. If I was to pray and my prayer consisted of only "thanks for everything", is that rejecting God?
Gabby, that is such a weak argument. You pray to God and ask for His guidance, and then you read the Bible, and it is an ANSWER to your request of guidance. You speak to God, and God speaks back to you with His word which is found in the Holy Bible. Is that a sign? I beleive not. It is His answer to you, and not a sign.
You should read the book "Sayings of the desert fathers", and study what their sayings show, and none of them were given a sign, but blessings. In St. Anthony's case, he asked God how to keep the evil thoughts away from him, and God sent an angel showing Anthony how to make baskets. Is that a sign or an answer to St.Athony's prayer? It is an answer to St. Anthony's prayer.
Pray for me,
Matt
posted on May 18, 2004 - 02:10 AM
From -Gabriel-:
That's my point exactly. Signs are seen as completely different things. This "cry to God", what is the difference between asking him "Why have you forsaken me?" and "Give me a sign." The answer can only come in the form OF a sign.
Gabby, you're right in a way.They both ARE the same,to an extent.Either way,whether you ask God"Why have you forsaken me" or "Give me a sign",IT IS WRONG.Who are we to question the Lord.first of all?And second of all,GOD NEVER FORSAKES ANYONE.Jesus Christ Himself said it,you're right....but think furhter than that....do you honestly think that the Son Of God,Jesus Christ,our Lord was forsaken by His own FATHER?!Jesus,while dying on the cross,did not need a SIGN of His Father's presence.
Look, the original issue was whether or not asking for a sign is wrong. Well it is. You ask God for many things but not of proof of His presence; that is insulting and in fact an ABOMINATION!
Verena, I am not replying to you, because I know you do not agree in asking signs, but you beleive that God sends signs. Well, He doesn't. He sends blessings and miracles, and your friend (whom I am prayign for), is a living miracle and is a blessing upon your life(which God has sent) for taking the burden of keeping her happy and taking care of her and always being there for her. The Lord will never forget this, Verena, because He even said that "What you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me".
God bless you all,
Matt
posted on May 18, 2004 - 02:15 AM
Matt....you said:
He sends blessings and miracles, and your friend (whom I am prayign for), is a living miracle and is a blessing upon your life(which God has sent) for taking the burden of keeping her happy and taking care of her and always being there for her. The Lord will never forget this, Verena, because He even said that "What you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto me".
Woah...you almost got my eyes teared up there..
i appreciate that Mathitis....thanks for your support...im sure she'd appreciate it too...
take care, keep smilin
-Verena
posted on May 18, 2004 - 04:13 AM
Hi Matt,
You do realise that this is a terminological discussion! I apologise for the translation of the verses I used before but they are unformatted so you'll have to look these up yourself because they are a meeting point where can all relate:
Judges 6:17-24 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in your sight, then show me a sign that you talk with me. Depart not from here, I pray you, until I come unto you, and bring forth my present, and set it before you. And he said, I will tarry until you come again. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the meat he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it. And the angel of God said unto him, Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto you; fear not: you shall not die. Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Judges 6:36-40 And Gideon said unto God, If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said, Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside it, then shall I know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said. And it was so: for he rose up early the next day, and squeezed the fleece together, and wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. And Gideon said unto God, Let not your anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me test, I pray you, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.
In both of these veres Gideon asked for signs and in one case explicitly asked for a test and God granted it. Perhaps you could answer this as the words test and sign were used by gideon when he wanted to know God's will.
Also ironically you differentiate between signs and guidance. You shouldn't forget that guidance is a sign in itself that God is working in us, isn't that the greatest sign of His love and compassion that He works in us for our slavation? You say a sign is a special blessing but these things are clearly blessings too maybe not wonderful and huge visions but more modest signs that God loves us and is helping us and wants to save us. Its these little things that strengthen and build faith. These are proofs (signs) of God's love not existance as we ask as believers.
IMHO this is what everyone here was getting at.
Its not so much that people are saying that asking for miracles and visions is okay, its not but we view every form of communication that God has with us as signs of a more modest nature of how much He loves us. We're not violating your statement that we're tempting God and asking for proof of His existance in unbelief because we already have belief and want it strengthened further.
I'm also not attacking your idea that signs are special blessings but we really ought to treat every little thing God gives us as being a blessing, even if not as grand. To the people here a sign is a communication from God which offers some kind of guidance or comfort in hard times, not the idea your thinking of asking for miracles or testing God.
Check out these verses:
Hebrews 12:5-8 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if you be without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you illegitimate children, and not sons.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God.
These verses of themselves do not prove the point unless you take this one also:
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Hence the modest day to day work of the Spirit in us for our salvation is the greatest proof (or as we like to think of it sign) of God's love:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
The Lord also meant for this to be a sign for our salvation:
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
The fact that the Spirit works in us and we submit to Him is a gift of God and a great sign of His work in us shows His love and care that gives us encouragment and a reason to keep believing in hard times. By the verse above we know that if we persevere and believe in hard times, God will always help us.
Now before you go and reply consider here that we are interested in proof of God's work as being signs note that no one before has been asking for them in the sense you've been getting at all we are saying is that it is okay to ask God to strengthen our faith:
Mark 9:23-25 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, You dumb and deaf spirit, I charge you, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
...It is a miracle, and the man who was possessed asked God to help him in his unbeleif, and because of that faith, Jesus blessed him and took care of the demon....
It is in this same spirit that everyone here is seeking an indication of God's love and a strengthening of faith not a test of God's existance. 
The way of life we lead is a proof and a consolation and a reason to keep our heads up:
2 Corinthians 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds by Christ.
Lets not forget that the fact that we have a struggling faith is also a proof in itself:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It is in the same mind as the man with the deamon possessed son that we're all praying with a small stuggling faith looking for help, not for signs as proof but as reassurance and thats what we recieve. These are the signs of the scripture the works of the Spirit which indicate clearly to us the love of God.
You may not call these things God does signs but they are proofs of His work and a reassurance that He loves us and thats what the issue here is not testing regarding His existance.
Also your idea of signs unlike what have been highlighted above are very deceptive as the Lord tells us:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
We are all Christians here, we are not tempting the Lord by asking for miracles (we know this is wrong) but for Him to come into our hearts to strengthen us and guide us. The dwelling of the Lord in us is a proof and sign of His love not existance, we did the action in faith we're not asking for proof just a further establishement of something that alredy exists.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
It might be a good idea if you PM me rather than reply here. This discussion was over a long time ago, it is on the basis of terminology not practice, we're thinking along the same lines and always have been. I'm happy to edit this post to tailor it so that there is a broader consensus but this thread should ideally be closed now if no one has any new questions.
God bless you,
CS
posted on May 18, 2004 - 05:20 PM
I am glad that we both agree that we cannot ask God for signs, since it will be an abomination on our part.
How God decides to guide us is not my business at all. It is His way and His will how He decides to answer our prayers. I've been going at this part the wrong way, and I realized my mistake and I am writing this now to apologize to anybody that I annoyed or angered. You are all my friends, and I do not want to make you all my enemies over something so innocent like this.
Please pray for me and forgive me if I angered any of you,
Matt
posted on May 19, 2004 - 01:42 AM
Hi Matt,
There was a point where we all agreed but chose to ignore that fact and continue arguing so here (re-posted) is my own little formulary of reunion!
1. God gives signs to build and encourage faith.
2. Prayer is an act of faith in the first place.
3. If I pray I try not to do so to put a restraint on God, I ask for help, not a sign. At no point has anyone on here stated that asking for signs is okay.
4. We can ask God for revelation (regarding who we should marry, etc) and He MAY do this in the form of a sign but ultimatly that is up to Him and it is our job to read whatever signals He may send in faith.
5. God uses signs to strengthen faith and without God communicating signs we will not know His will. I will differentiate here between signs as miracles or appearances of angels, etc and signs as in signals being a word from a priest or a parent given from God to you.
6. This is a result of God trying to guide us and without God being able to communicate in some way and without us being able to ask for that guidance (be it as a sign or otherwise) we'd be in a bit of a pathetic state wouldn't we?
7. I don't ask for signs because doing so promotes pride. That is one of the main issues because we make God obedient to us but if we ask for help in humility, He has ways of making His will known.
Do all the attendees of the council agree???
God bless,
CS
posted on May 19, 2004 - 02:27 AM
Hi Matt,
Faith/belief is also a gift from God and there are verses to support this, I can provide more if you wish later because I gotta shoot but every good we have is a gift:
John 11:11-15 These things said he: and after that he said unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleeps, he shall do well. However Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent you may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
God bless,
CS
posted on May 19, 2004 - 09:46 AM
Okay back...
This time rather than bible verese I'm gonna use a coupla quotes from Fr Matthew the poor.
Many are those who have stood bewildered, asking: Where are we? What is the purpose behind our journey? What were we doing coming this way in the first place? But these are questions of doubt, a cry of retreat. Many have turned back before reaching the end because they lived by sight. They asked for a sign for themselves, thus proving their lack of faith. Their wish being rejected, they gave up the trail and flung themselves with a vengence into the arms of a madding crowd. They plunged with all their might into the countless crazies of the world and have become obsessed with them. This they have done not because they see any real benefit in these activities, but because they want to escape the truth that confronted them. For fear siezed them when they were forced to face the fact that they had to walk by faith alone and not by sight.
I'm assuming this was what your getting at but you need to balance this with what he goes on to say:
However long our struggle may last, we should keep on going along the way of God, for we are certain that at the end of the trail lies the heavenly Jerusalem prepared for her bridegroom. But so long as the journey goes on, we should be satisfied with God's faithfulness to His promises, the secret encouragements that He gives us, and His voice speaking to us out of eternity.
Also you wanted stuff on faith, I haven't been able to find a good passage on what faith is but I have on what faith isn't.
Faith is not a feeling or emotion.
Neither is it an obscure blind call to mystery.
Nor is it forcing one's soul to feel the existance of God and the invisible world.
Nor is it deceiving the mind to convince it of salvation, justification, redemption, or the like.
Nor is it repressing the doubts clouding issues not easily acceptable to a materialistic mind.
Nor is it embezzling for oneself a personal property, whose secrets cannot be shared with everyone.
Nor is it a private opinion.
Nor is it a mental conviction resulting from analysis, deduction, or comparison.
Nor is it the fruit of scientific evidence.
It is not an intellectual decision at all! In fact fr. matthew goes on to say the only reason we call it a virtue and not a grace is because it involves the will and submitting it to God and no more than that. The virtue totally transcends all we know, think, percive and are. This makes it a gift that God grants more than anything else.
God bless,
CS
posted on Jul 24, 2007 - 09:48 AM
Are you sure you can not ask for a sign even if you need it really bad and are desperate?
Didn't Jesus do miracles to make people believe who had trouble believing? didn't He also show Thomas His wounds after the resurrection?
Haven't people come to faith by asking God to answer a prayer so they can believe?
If God will not give a sign for something like proof of His existence then what will make a person believe in His existence? do some people just have faith and some do not? does that not seem unfair to you and then isn't it true to feel very let down by God for not giving us the gift of faith?
How long should a person wait to get the gift of faith? 10 years if need be? is it right for a person who wants to believe and want peace to have to wait 10 years with even no assurance that he will have this gift after 10 years and with no promise as God promised to Abraham?
Do you think it is okay for a person to feel for 10 years that he is Gods enemy and will go to hell since he has no faith.. though he wants it everyday?
I had doubts and God so far has not left me that long to be in that condition.. he makes me believing again at times I think.. but I think I might have the struggle with doubt for a while.. I don't know how long..
I struggle with doubts sometimes.. and I hate it.. God have mercy on me and others who are desperate for faith
And God keep us in the true faith...
posted on Jul 25, 2007 - 05:29 AM
my observation ,
throughout the 4 gospels , we see examples of jesus doing huge impossible miracles , and all the 12 disciples witnessed it .... and still they had little faith ... even with jesus there and even after they seen huge miracles ....
so i think ,.. We should be cut some slack if were alittle low on the faith part ... were living in new times , and its hard to figure out whats a miracle and whats not ....
im not saying having little faith is good , im just saying , it shouldent be a suprise if one has little faith .
if the diciples saw all that and had little faith ..... then ...
_________________
( insert Cool Signature here , think original )
posted on Jul 25, 2007 - 04:25 PM
the Orthodox church is a miracle.
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