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tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:01 PM

im just gonna give u the story and u give me the feedback ,,,,

theres this guy / deacon in my church who i was once friends with .. then we became enemies .. i mean there is no way I CAN BE FRIENDS with this guy again ican get deeper into the details of the fight we had upon request but for now lets leave it at that .. BASICALLY . i hate the guy ... now .... theres a slight problem .. now i can ignore the guy and get on with my life .. but hes a deacon .. and im a deacon .. and sometimes we serve in the alter and when ever we serve i get SOOOO uncomfortable , i cant concentrate on god or anything else .. im sure its the devil .. but i really hate this kid .. and im always leaving the alter when ever i see him inside there because I FEEL ITS WRONG TO BE IN A HOLY PLACE WHEN U HATE THE GUY SITTING NEXT TO U .. I CANT BE MAD AT SOMEONE WHEN THE BODY OF GOD IS RIGHT THERE .. SO WHEN EVER HES SERVING .. I ALWAYS STAND OUTSIDE AND SING THE HYMNS .. BUT ITS GETTING ANNYOING BECUASE I MISS SERVING INSIDE .. ... I KNWO THATS GODS LITTLE WAY OF SAYING .. FORGIVE HIM .. BUT I CANT .. IVE BEEN HURT .. AND ITS SOMETHING THAT WONT GO AWAY .. ..
SO THATS MY DILEMMA .. I CAN GO TO ANOTHER CHURCH .BUT THATS NOT MY STYLE ... I AM LOYAL .. ..

SO I STICK IT OUT .. YOU GUYS MY THINK IM THE IGNORANT ONE but u guys dont know the details so i know i will look bad on this thread but its okay ... so anyways .. gimme some adivice ...if u have any .. and guys be real for a sec .. im sick of your attempt to look pure on this site .. so anyways ... i belive the phrase is " holla back "

eternally

tony habibi

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tinab

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:14 PM

I believe Our Lord Jesus Christ put it best ...

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?"
Mt. 5:43-46



pray for me,

CB

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“… ‘WHEN I PASSED YOU BY AGAIN AND LOOKED UPON YOU, INDEED YOUR TIME WAS THE TIME OF LOVE; SO I SPREAD MY WING OVER YOU AND COVERED YOUR NAKEDNESS. YES, I SWORE AN OATH TO YOU AND ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH YOU AND YOU BECAME MINE,’ SAYS THE LORD GOD.”
- Ezekiel 16:8 -

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tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:21 PM

thank you tina that was greatly appreciated .............................. but thats so hard to do that ( forgive) for 2 reasons ... i am human , and 2nd , i have hated this guy for a long time and im not apologizing .. it cuts both ways ..its troubling .. ...but its my reality .

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PaulS

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:21 PM

Tony,

You have to realize that, when you enter the Holy Altar, which is the "holy of holies," the most holy place in the church, the devil is going to increase his efforts to make you fall into sin.

He is going to make your hate for this person stronger and stronger until you are sinning in the Holy Altar, which is exactly what he wants.

You can't give in to him. As Tina noted above, fight hate with love. In doing so, you will be a soldier of Christ who fights against the devil when he tries these things.

GBU,
ps

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tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:24 PM

thanks man, but paul ... i have a question ... can the devil enter the holy alter ? since we were on the topic and all

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tinab

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 08:45 PM

Tony,
Of course it's easier said than done, as are many other things we struggle against.

As Paul said, the devil will take the opputunity of your prescence in the "Holy of Holies" to put your struggle into over drive.

Have you ever tried using the Jesus Prayer? Why don't you try it the next time you feel the angerness towards your friend become unbearable? It's so simple and yet so effective, you'll find that calling out to Our Lord Jesus Christ and asking Him to have mercy on you unbelievably comforting and as long as it comes from your heart, there will be no room for anger there, I think your will also find the Rhythmic repitition of it spiritually soothing.

This is an article that was recently posted on here, give it a read when you have a chance.

The Jesus Prayer by Fr. Lev Gillet

Let me leave you with this, an excerpt from my favorite author, from my favorite book.

"There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which everyone in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people except Christians ever imagine that they are guilty themselves. ... and the virtue opposite to it, in Christian Morals, is Humility. ... it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-GOD state of mind. "

"The Great Sin", Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis



pray for me,

CB

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“… ‘WHEN I PASSED YOU BY AGAIN AND LOOKED UPON YOU, INDEED YOUR TIME WAS THE TIME OF LOVE; SO I SPREAD MY WING OVER YOU AND COVERED YOUR NAKEDNESS. YES, I SWORE AN OATH TO YOU AND ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH YOU AND YOU BECAME MINE,’ SAYS THE LORD GOD.”
- Ezekiel 16:8 -

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PaulS

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 09:06 PM

Tony,

In the Old Testament, we have a good example of misbehavior in the Holy Altar, or the Holy of Holies.

If you read 1 Samuel 2:12-3:21, you will see how an old priest of the altar, Eli, allowed his two sons to serve and administer the altar. Unfortunately, they were evil and reckless in their dealings there. You can read the entire story in the verses quoted above, but I want you to focus on this line:

"This sin of the young men [the two sons] was very great in the LORD's sight, for they were treating the LORD's offering with contempt." (1 Samuel 2:17)

And what did the Lord do in response? Read below:

"Therefore The Lord the God of Israel declares: 'I promised that your house and the house of your father should go in and out before Me for ever'; but now The Lord declares: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. Behold, the days are coming, when I will cut off your strength and the strength of your father's house, so that there will not be an old man in your house. Then in distress you will look with envious eye on all the prosperity which shall be bestowed upon Israel; and there shall not be an old man in your house for ever. The man of you whom I shall not cut off from My altar shall be spared to weep out his eyes and grieve his heart; and all the increase of your house shall die by the sword of men. And this which shall befall your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, shall be the sign to you: both of them shall die on the same day."

And that mortifying promise became true. Both of Eli's wicked sons died on the same day, and Eli himself died when he found out about his sons' deaths.

From this, we learn that evil may indeed happen when dealing with holy things. We also learn that God hates such behavior.

This is important for all of us to remember as we serve His holy Church.

GBU,
ps

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minasoliman

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 09:22 PM

My Servant's Prep teacher once taught us that when you have someone you really hate, it means you lost concentration on Christ.

A valuable lesson I learned is that you either have Christ or the person of interest on your mind. Remember St. Peter when he was walking towards Christ on the water? What happened? As he diverted his attention away from Christ's face and looked at the storms around him, he fell and drowned. Christ took hold of him and told him to concentrate on Him and not on the storms around him.

When a situation like this happens, it is understandable that we are human and that it is hard to forgive. But it's only hard if you don't look straight into Christ's face. Many times when I sin, I feel ashamed and try my best not looking at Christ's face, but He's everywhere in our house (pictures that is).

So Habibi, whenever there's personal storms in your life, just think of Christ, and He'll give you rest and even the capacity to forgive and forget.

To answer your other question, it is known that the devil is weak even upon entering the church. But the devil stands at the door of the church throwing temptations at you that could bother you all the way to the altar. Keep Christ on your eyes and mind always and these temptations will go away.

God bless you.

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carolb

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 09:52 PM

Tony,

I want you to know that you are not alone in having the devil try his tricks on you while you try to serve the Lord... There is a well-known story about a *priest* who was tempted with evil while he was praying the liturgy! It can happen to anyone, and it happens to everyone. Goes to show that the devil will not stop or relent - he tries to capture everyone.
But, the Lord made us stronger - He gave us dominion to trample over every power of the enemy.

About forgiving this guy... I know that can be really hard. It's not something you can do on your own; seek the guidance of your FOC and pray that God help you forgive this guy, even if this guy is in the wrong. Otherwise, you will let the devil win over you. Think of Christ and St. Stephen... although they did *nothing* wrong, they forgave their tormentors.

God be with you! We'll pray for you.
Great question!

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PaulS

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 09:52 PM

I also want to add a reminder that, during the Holy Liturgy, the priest, deacons, and congregation are performing a rite that commemorates the Last Supper.

In this manner, the Holy Liturgy is an act that recounts over and over again what happened on that blessed night: our Lord gave us His Body and Blood; He then led Himself to death as a lamb to the slaughter for our sins; and through these actions, He purified us. See, e.g., The Day of the Cross by Fr. Matthew the Poor and The Last Supper by Fr. Matthew the Poor (both excellent reads.)

Keeping that in mind, ask yourself this: Was the devil present at the Last Supper dinner? Of course; Judas was there some of the time. Was the devil present at the Crucifixion? Of course; look at how the thief on the left, the High Priest, the Jewish people, and the Roman soldiers mocked Christ while He was performing the act of saving all humankind.

So, if the devil was present at the actual events we commemorate in the Holy Liturgy, could he not do his evil work at the commemoration?

He works very hard to make us stumble. It is only God's grace and protection that keep us going.

GBU,
ps

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cyriliv

posted on Sep 24, 2004 - 11:02 PM

I totally understand why you can be so pissed off, however the situation is obviously not good for either party (and going to another church won't work- you'ld be avoiding the problem instead of fixing it). Anyways, your situation and choice of words reminded me of some verses by St. Paul:

17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12: 17-21

I also remember in Unseen Warfare, the author says the best way to fight a sin is to perform the virtue that is the opposite to that sin. So in your case show a little love to your enemy and the hate that is growing within you should begin to leave. I'm not telling you to go wash his feet on Sunday, but small acts of kindness can lead to true Godly love (i.e. feed him, get him some water...). Just my two pents; hope it helps.

iryny nem agapy
kurilloc

ps. Pray about it; bring in your best weapon against the devil: Jesus Christ and His saints.

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chuck2

posted on Sep 25, 2004 - 03:01 PM

hey tony i think that this guy feels the same way about you but i think that he would of forgiven you. why dont you try to talk with this person and try to work things out. im sure if he is a deacon he would be in the same position as you are. remember in the movie passion of the christ when peter denied christ three times but then forgave him and said to his desciples " and tell peter too" he forgave him and i think that if you do the same and forgive this guy you and him might be closer friends some day. good luck .

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illcopt

posted on Sep 25, 2004 - 03:44 PM

hey tony, everyone on this page is right . do you mind telling what the reasons are? i hope they arent little things because you are a deacon and you should know better. the other kid is wrong for what he did if it was wrong and he should of apologized . but if you cant be outside stay inside the alter but on the other side of him and if that doesnt work you should atleast try something be his friend but dont talk to him or something . has this kid ever talked to you ? tell him you dont want to be friends but just hellos and by by's.
i hope everything works out for you .

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pavly

posted on Sep 25, 2004 - 07:34 PM

Hello Tony,
The fathers of the desert say that you should not let the sun go down while you are still angry about someone, meaning you should try to pacify the same day. Now, since we're not monks and we tend to not forgive the same day and the problems grow like snowballs, I would tell you take the first step. Forget about what he did to you and take some of the blame on you.
Isn't this what Christ himself did by taking all our sins, and forgiving even those who were spitting on him and hitting him even though he was innocent?!?
Being in the same situation as you in the past, I can say that the other person, if you do go to him and tell him you're sorry, whether you were the faulty or the innocent, will maybe forget about the problems and forgive you as well.
If not, then you did your job as a Christian.
Pavly

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Mathitis

posted on Sep 25, 2004 - 11:09 PM

Hate is not a feeling of God. Hate is actually a mistake, it's a freak of nature. You should get rid of this feeling, and struggle to get rid of it. If somebody did you harm, go and ask him to forgive you and, as Pavly said, even if you are not the faulty one.

If you love those who love you, what benefit do you get? It's like taking salt water and dumping it into the sea; nothing happens. But if you love those who hate you, you get a benefit. It's like taking water, and dumping it on a hot piece of metal, the hot piece of metal cools down with the help of the water, and that what loving your enemies will do; it will change them.

God bless you Tony,
Matt

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cyriliv

posted on Sep 26, 2004 - 01:59 AM

A friend sent me this web site that discusses how one should prepare oneself to partake of the Holy Mysteries, that is communion. I took the following piece out for all to benefit from:

Holy Communion is a work of love, out of love, out of great love, God, in the second person of the Trinity, communed with his creation, that is, He came to earth, became incarnate and "dwelt among men." Out of great love He gave Himself as a sacrifice for us. Out of great love He poured out His precious blood. And out of great love He offered His body and His blood to be consumed by the faithful in the mystery of Holy Communion. "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive with Christ" (Eph. 2:4.5). Through Holy Communion we are made alive.

Out of great love He communed with us, became one with us. And we should out of love become one with Him, to commune of His Body and His Blood. Our approach to Holy Communion depends on the love we have for Christ. Whoever strongly loves Christ, whoever above every other love has his love for Christ, he it is who longs to converse with the beloved Jesus in prayer, to diligently hear the voice of his Beloved in the study of Holy Scripture will frequently unite with his Beloved in Holy Communion. Divine eros, fervent love for Christ, urges one toward frequent Holy Communion. If the love grows cold, then the longing for Holy Communion diminishes, and the receiving of Holy Communion becomes mechanical and, thus, unto judgment and condemnation.

Now for preparation of the soul for Holy Communion, love for people is also absolutely necessary, which furthermore is the proof of one's love for God. The disciple of love, the evangelist John, in his first Epistle combines three loves: God's love for us, our love for God, and our love for others. We love Him because He first loved us. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: "that he who loves God must love his brother also" (1 John 4:19-21).

Christ in His Sermon on the Mount stresses that reconciliation or making up with the people with whom we do not have a good relationship must precede our offering and worship in the temple. "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift" (Math. 5:23-24). For this reason, also, in the beginning of the service of Holy Communion, as a basic presupposition for approaching Holy Communion, reconciliation and making up with others is stressed:

"As thou approachest, O mortal, to receive the Body of the Master,
Draw near with awe lest thou be seared; It is fire.
And when thou drinkest the Holy Blood unto Communion,
First reconcile with those who grieve thee,
Then with courage receive the Mystic Food."

The sacred Chrysostom also protests and says that no one having enemies and hating them can approach the sacred Table.

"Do you want to take Holy Communion? Don't feel hate and antipathy for anyone; have love for everyone. Unfortunately, there are Christians who, even when they are about to commune, do not seek forgiveness of others. This is how they think: "Why should I ask for forgiveness? And what if the other one took this as my weakness and wanted to misuse me? Then I would not be at fault. He would be at fault and he ought to ask me for forgiveness"...Oh, harshness, which is the daughter of egotism!...

So a basic presupposition for Holy Communion is love for others. It is a good idea prior to Holy Communion, from the evening before, to seek forgiveness from the people in our family or in our surroundings. And let children kiss the hands of their parents and ask for their forgiveness and their blessing.

This section on love and the rest of the article can be found at: http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/pari ... ration.cfm

Iryny nem Agapy
Kurilloc

ps. Please pray for me, some exams coming up.

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Mira5757

posted on Oct 07, 2004 - 02:35 PM

In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.
Tony,
I understand how you feel. I felt the same way but I am not a deacon. There is this girl who I feel very sick around. BUT...This is satanic and I am glad you realize that. You should force yourself to stand by him and be close to him, not run away. When you stand by him, recite to yourself, "The Lord is the strength of my heart. " Go out of your way to serve him and do nice things for him, you can recieve HUGE blessings in your life for your efforts in doing what is difficult rather than what is natural which is loving only those who love you but what profit is that to you? Loving your enemies is something no one can do without God's help. Ask for God's hand to help you and plant love in your heart for him and all people. This is really difficult but nothing is too hard for God. Truly surrender your heart of hurt and anger and God will fill your heart with love and joy towards all His children. Remember that the ONLY unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit...which means not forgiving your friend. That person has sinned against you but you also sinned against others, we can not expect God to forgive us until we forgive each other. May God strengthen you and fill your heart with love and joy. God bless you!
Love, Mira M.

Joined: Apr 23, 2003 | Posts: 38

Fortunatus

posted on Oct 07, 2004 - 07:18 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Hey Tony,

I was once in a situation where I was working directly under someone far far superior to me in the service. This person has much experience and is generally very loving. Things were going fine until situation X happened. Then I got really angry at him. I went to my Father of Confession, and I basically ranted at him, telling him that I think Uncle ____ is an absolute blah blah blah, and I just let it out. Abouna laughed.

He told me Love is the hardest virtue to get to, and virtually none has, because it is an all encompassing virtue (if you have it, you have all the previous ones)! So, he wasn't shocked that I felt that way, and it's not surprising that you still feel that way about this guy that wronged you. He did, however, ask me to take this as a lesson in humility (since I was and still am working with this person), and that to take it as a direct lesson from God to teach me particular things (relevant to me). So try opening up with your FOC and see what he says.

Also relevant:
Abouna Athanasius recently taught us the three different levels of calmness (since we're not talking about learning love overnight):

1. Not return evil for evil.
2. Not return evil for evil + not being upset.
3. Not return evil for evil + not being upset + praying for the person who offended you and for yourself.

See, #1 is where most of us are, where we might be absolutely furious inside, but manage not to become aggressive (either vocally or physically).

#2 is where you manage to keep that internal calm.

#3 is where you start to show love, praying for the dude that deserves a slug across the face.

All we can do is struggle to get over it, God looks upon that struggle and in due time He gives you the grace to move up a level. Talking to your FOC about it is the best, because he will pray about it too.

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MarkyMark

posted on Nov 06, 2004 - 04:05 PM

Although I am not a deacon this string is relevant to me because I sometimes struggle with the same thing with some of the Christians I work with down at the mission. There are two quotes that have helped me in the past deal with the same situation. 1. "A saint sees himself in the sins of others" (Cornieris). 2. We love our enemies the same way we love ourselves when we sin (CS Lewis). Knowing these things is one thing practicing them is another. Lately I have been simply praying for "deliverance" for a particular person who happens to piss me off. The Lord has revealed great wisdom in this practice. A. You spare your own self from judgement if and when you do the exact same thing. B. You'll spare a potential brother or sister in Christ from perdition. And C. If the person is a real jerk you'll heap coals unto their head. I hope this helps.

in Christ
MM

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timotheoc

posted on Nov 06, 2004 - 05:38 PM

hey marky,
i actually had the same thing about a week ago, i was critisized for a saying a couple of things, and i came out of the liturgy really bitter, but as was said before, i told my dad about it and he laughed and just told me 2 take it differently rather than being all ticked off,what im trying to say is dont let the devil get the better of u, i understand if u have someone u dont really like working with u to serve God, it gets hard to concentrate, but take this as a time to grow spritually, theres no limit to how spritually strong and smart you can be, the more practice you have the better you'll be, so God bless my friend and dont wry about it im sure ur a great deacon urself,
keep praying
Tim

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MarkyMark

posted on Nov 06, 2004 - 06:20 PM

hey tim.

i'm not a deacon yet (i'm still at the point of convincing myself to become orthodox, LOL). i was just browsing the site and saw this string and thought it was relevant to me. i'm just a lowly volunteer worker at a homeless mission. good point though. i'll have to remember that if and when i do become a deacon one day. how does that work by the way? i was told the priest just selects you out of the pack. is that true?

in Christ
mm

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mina84

posted on Nov 07, 2004 - 05:48 PM

um I am a deacon but im not pure as i wish i was. but i just want to say we say in the Lord's prayer ".... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.." and in the liturgy we always hear Greet one another with holy kiss. (also) ...that without falling into condemnation we may partake of Your Immortal and Heavenly gifts through Christ Jesus our Lord. for me i know there are people in church or wherever who may never forgive me. i tried to couple of times to reach to them or be kind to them, try to win them back. it didn't really happen but now i know i tried my part of reconciling so now the way is to be at peace with them as best as you can. Please don't let the evil one win this situation. i think this is one of his favorites. to cause tension angerness and grudges towards each other and be amused at his distruption of Christ's members. Pray to God. take care

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asinner

posted on Jan 13, 2005 - 08:40 PM

tony i know how u are feeling but u must understand 1 thing if u dont forgive then im sorry to say but why then should
God for give you Jesus was cursed at and he forgave peter(his best freind) denied him and he held a place for him in heaven i umnderstand the position your in and it is perfecty normal but the alter is very holy as yous said the body of christ is there and think of this if the lord appeared other than the way He appears now and tod you to forgive him would you say no ,i gfuesse not well the lord is now telling you forgive and forget the best way to answer this post is for give ill tell u this imagine you are in heaven right now and your freind was would u reject him that would be rejecting God remember what jesus said WHAT YOU DID TO THE LEAST OF MY BREATHEREN YOU DID UNTO ME you are hating God now itsa jus plain wrong
dats all i have to say ... i hope i helped you

irini nem ehmot
peace and grace

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elshammaa

posted on Jan 13, 2005 - 08:47 PM

Tony,
How are you man? I am prayin for you, but just wanted to see how the situation is? Has it gotten better?
In Christ,
Mike

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I_died

posted on Jan 13, 2005 - 08:51 PM

A friend once told me that the opposite of love was not hate but apathy. At least hate and love have this in common: they are passion and they are energy. In fact it could be said that hate is a sort of "bent" form of love (not that this makes hate any less a sin). Imagine what sort of glory Satan fell from! And in the opposite direction: look how St. Paul was transformed from a vicious persecutor of the Church into one of the most loving person who ever existed. Imagine if Hitler repented: he could have been a vessel of so much love that it would be un-imaginable.

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II Samuel 12:7, "Thou art the man!"

Joined: Jan 11, 2005 | Posts: 32
Location: St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan