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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 03:04 PM

Alright, got another question.

Now, for those who know the answer, this may seem like an incredibly stupid question, but here goes nothin'!

According to GB pronunciation, the word Abba should be pronounced how?

The reason why I ask is because that's the only word I've seen having 2 Betas in a row. So, I'm just curious to know if that effects the pronunciation.

Thanks again guys!

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Michael Fam

Saint Marina Coptic Orthodox Church

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Misteka

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 03:09 PM

Remenkimi once told me that technically, it should be "Abva" since a veta before another consonant is always pronounced "b". Remenkimi, please confirm...

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 03:17 PM

Avva is correct...

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Guest

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 04:23 PM

I don't know, sorry

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egydave

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 06:40 PM

i think that it depends on the person u ask, some people qere taught the coptic language differen than others. i think it is avva, but its like soke people say that its veta not beta, but it still depends. my thoughts
dave

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 06:48 PM

Hey Mike,

Veta can be said as "v" or "b"... in nouns like Bethlahem, it is pronouced with a "b" ....the same rule applies to Abba, it is a noun, so it "Abba" and NOT "Avva."

George Mekhaiel

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Location: Saint George COC

egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 06:59 PM

George, are you sure about that? I think Abba is used as an adjective, not a proper noun.

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 10:04 PM

After talking with Albier, the correct way of saying it is abba is pronounced ava meaning anba, and appa is pronounced apa meaning father. So the correct way is AVVA. Hope this helps....

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 10:10 PM

i'm pretty sure....the only way i could be wrong is if i'm mixing he veta rule with the delta rule (and i've been known to do that while teaching coptic class) so...haha

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Guest

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 10:49 PM

As I told Misteka before, technically speaking, if you want to follow GB rules to the "t", it is ABVA. According to many GB sources, B is pronounced "V" if the letter after it is A or E or I or H or O or Ou ....(the vowels). It is pronounced "B" if the letter after it is a consonant or empty.

So Twbh is pronounced Tobh NOT Tovh. By;leem is pronounced Veth le eem. Beca is pronounced Vesa. Abba is pronounced Abva.

Soon people realized words that they are familiar with do not follow the rule, such as Wesa, Avva, Tovh, etc. So a pseudo-rule entered that says if it is a name the letter is B, such as Bethleem. Another rule showed up that says if it is at the end of a word, it is b, like ethowab. I can't say with any certaintity if these rules appear later than the original rule. All I know is most people do not even know these latter rules. Since it is not universally accepted, it probably originated afterward. But then again, the nature of GB allows for fast corruption of grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation.

I hope you all realized that this whole topic once again shows the inconsistancies and confusion of GB. Let's just learn OB and live in peeace.

George

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Guest

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 10:59 PM

ninomoc tyrou `nte `vlac `mberi ( ]jinws `mberi ) hanswft ne

abba _ apa

nimonoc `nte `vlac `mberi au;amiwou qajen se tebi `nrompi qen ni`ehoou `nte apa kurilloc pimah `ftou

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 11:06 PM

Yeah, when i read coptic i never think of rules, it kinda just sounds right, and is the way that u've always pronouced it....don't think too much!

George Mekhaiel

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Location: Saint George COC

Guest

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 11:31 PM

Yes, thanx for pointing out the rules george, the Tovh is pronounced Tob since the h is silent, and if it follows a vowel it is pronoucned V like Vethlem, and it is right that if it comes at the end of the word it is a B not V. N for the delta rules it is pronounced zd however if it is a noun it is pronounced only d. And once more it is Avva since this is how the word is made up of the consenants and vowels....... hope this adds to what george said.....

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 12, 2005 - 11:34 PM

Yes, thanx for pointing out the rules george, the Tovh is pronounced Tob since the h is silent, and if it follows a vowel it is pronoucned V like Vethlem, and it is right that if it comes at the end of the word it is a B not V. N for the delta rules it is pronounced zd however if it is a noun it is pronounced only d. And once more it is Avva since this is how the word is made up of the consenants and vowels....... hope this adds to what george said.....

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 12:14 AM

I heard somewhere that if the Beta is in a proper noun then it keeps the 'b' sound. Like Basilious or something...

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 02:12 AM

Yes, this applys too names, such has Barbara it is a B, but as for a noun as a city or place such as Bethlem it is a V not B.

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 03:03 AM

That makes absolutely no sense; they're both proper nouns. Why would the name of a city differ from the name of a person? Like St. Paul, Minnesota and the name Paul. What's the difference?

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Misteka

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 07:33 AM

To clarify:

According to the pseudo rules, it is pronounced "B" if it's a city or proper noun. So it's Bethleem, not Vethleem, and Basilios, not Vasilious. "Paul" is not a valid example because it's pi, not veta, ya nas.

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 05:52 PM

Hey egyptianhomeboy, its just that you have to understand the rules thats what im trying to say, I can't really explain it because its hard.... lets jus leave it at that!!

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 06:26 PM

What i was trying to say, was Misteka is right all nouns are pronounced wtih a B, so a name such as Barbara or city or place as Bethlem is a B not a V....... and as for the Tovh just to point it out again... since the H is silent it is pronounced Tob.... and once again to conclude:) it is AVA and not aba or abva.... hope this helps all of you......

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copt_ramses21

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 09:08 PM

peace b with all

im still a student in the Coptic language so dont tak my word 4 it. however ive been taught that it is "ava" when the veeta is followed by a vowel. It is pronounced "b" when followed by a consonant or is used as a proper name. I agree with the people who say "ava" because it is not a proper name. andrew-toronto

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 09:59 PM

ABasanti,
I apologize if I misunderstood you, man.

Misteka,
Don't be mistekan (), I was using the St. Paul analogy for use in english to prove my point. St. Paul, MN and Paul are both proper nouns and names at the same time.

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ABasanti

posted on Oct 13, 2005 - 10:08 PM

Its okay.... as long as we understand it now and we can teach others the correct way of saying these words and enhance the hymns to the right pronunciation.....GB........

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Guest

posted on Oct 14, 2005 - 01:52 PM

Isn't the word a Syriac one to begin with? (meaning Father)

If so, the B/V is one letter, and it changes depending on some factors. It can be Aba or Ava -- just depends.

Are there any other Syriac cognates in Coptic?

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Remnkemi

posted on Oct 14, 2005 - 03:37 PM

All this confusion over one letter because of GB rules.

Let's just stick to AWWA.....OB RULES!!!!!

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