coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Cephas

posted on Sep 04, 2006 - 08:56 PM

¿ Iryny nem agapy>

I suppose it was only appropriate to start one in light of what I've seen going on in the copticheritage.org shoutbox. Some interesting issues had been raised, and I guess it is only appropriate to start a thread on it. If the admins feel this is unecessary, please feel free to take down this thread.

Now, onto the issue at hand. It seems that there are some people who feel that the shoutbox serves no purpose except to waste time and since 'idle time is the playground for the devil' (or some cliche along those lines) it would seem that the shoutbox could result in 'sin'.

Is that acutally the case though? If the shoutbox does waste time, then what of emails, msn (or any other chat client), phone calls or even getting together with friends? I find that the shoutbox is a quick and easy way to communicate with friends who you normally wouldn't have the chance to see. I mean, it has connected people from literally all over the world, and has brought Copts from all over together. This is kinda the same concept behind email, msn and the good ole telephone. Now, can the shoutbox become a stumbling block? Let me pose this question... what, if used in an inapproriate manner, wouldn't become a stumbling block?

If the shoutbox is such a time waster, then we should also get rid of email, msn and the telephone. We shouldn't get together with each other ever. In fact, we should all just lock ourselves in our rooms and spend the entire time in quiet contemplation. While we're at it, why don't we all just drop everything, go to a monestary or a convent, and just stay in a cell without seeing the face of another person again?

I think the answer to that is apparent: as humans, God has created us as social beings. In fact, God Himself is a Trinity. He is not one, but Three in One. And since we are created in His image, we also shouldn't shy away from being social. Everything that exists can be used for good or evil. We were created to worship and pray to God, but we were also created to interact with each other. And since many of us don't live down the street from each other, the internet has become a means of communicating with our friends from all around.

We are not all called for the monastic life. Not all of us a capable of cutting ourselves off from society as some of the Desert Fathers have done. And you know what? That doesn't matter. God doesn't require that of us. As long as we do make the effort to spend time alone with ourselves and God in quiet meditation and contemplation, that is fine.

Now, I'm sure there will be those of you who agree with me, and some who don't. I figure this would be a good place to have an honest, clean discussion about an important issue. So, on that note, I'm done with my ramblings and whoever wishes to take the floor, feel free.

Please pray for me.

_________________
Cevac ¨
<ere peniwt Abba Paule pimenrit `nte P=,=c

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
-- Philippians 4:13

"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"
-- Mark 9:24

"Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
-- Jeremiah 29:12-13

Joined: Aug 06, 2004 | Posts: 612
Location: St. Paul the Anchorite Coptic Orthodox Church, London, Ontario

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 12:08 AM

Thank You Caphes for starting this topic….

I have soooo much to say, hmm….where to start…

Caphes, there is only one major point which you made, which is that you believe that this social gathering (in the shoutout box) is not a waste of time, but rather it is a help for people who want communicate with each other.

I agree with you! ….but only to a certain degree.

I am definitely NOT the person who would support being antisocial BUT I believe that we need to take better care of the quality of our social time. (This is my main point….read it again to understand more clearly)

I believe that the main topic on our minds should be Christ (especially on a Christian website [ie: coptichymns.net and copticheritage.org]).

The shoutout box on copticheritage.org doesn’t reflect what I have come to think of as, “a focused Christian mind.” What I mean by, “a focused Christian mind” is that we need to lay our social talk on Christ. We should only think, talk, feel and live Christ. We shouldn’t trouble ourselves with cars, video games, cartoon shows, movies, etc… (such as the worldly things which are talked about in the shoutout box on copticheritage.org).

Do you know why people are always saying that the church of today is weak compared to the church of the past??? The answer is that the church of the past wasn’t concentrated on worldly things but only on Christ. Today we find the exact opposite happening. We find that in all of our social gatherings we can only seem to talk about everything else but Spiritual matters. We don’t seem to find interest in them. This is wrong…and very dangerous.

We shouldn’t live as lukewarm Christians. We need to be extraordinary! I don’t want Christ to look at me and say, “George is lukewarm…he never gives time to think about me.” I want God to say, “George is an amazing Christian! I love George! George is always focused on me. George never goes a second without thinking about Me.” And you should all want God to be able to say the same things about you.

Bottom line: The shoutout box shows really how weak we are as Christians in that all we can focus on is worldly things. We need to be extraordinary in our faith. Don’t waste your time in idle talk…

Also, don’t get he feeling that God wants you to lock yourselves in your rooms and complete all the time…or even better, go to the monastery and become monks (or nuns). But rather, be social! Talk to one another! Make friends! BUT, always keep the focus of your talks and social lives on Christ….And God will reward you.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Biboboy

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 12:39 AM

Agape,

First, I would like to request that if you see a problem with anything that an admin can address, I ask that you talk to the admin directly, rather than have a public forum on it.

Second, I don't see anything wrong with the shoutbox as a shoutbox. It serves the purpose of communicating with one another, which is a very Christian thing to do and is what makes us Christians (and not to mention, humans!).

If there's extreme misuse of the shoutbox, I always take action as soon as I notice it. But if there are any casual conversations, I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as people are having a good conversation with Christian respect to one another, there's nothing wrong with that.

Being a Christian does not mean that one must always speak about spiritual things. In fact, St. Paul the Apostle, who usually speaks about spiritual things, once wrote to St. Timothy the Bishop about caring for his health, which isn't a spiritual topic, and is preserved in the Bible! You can talk about work, school, TV, and life in general and still be a Christian. We are living in the world, and are expected to act and talk as people living in the world, provided that we don't become "of" the world.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 01:11 AM

Bishoy,

Aside from all your pointless talk about addressing these problems with an admin you did make one point which I agree with….but only to a certain degree. Your point was that it is ok to have casual talk every once in a while (because it is human).

Allow me to quote myself:

I believe that the main topic on our minds should be Christ (especially on a Christian website [ie: coptichymns.net and copticheritage.org]).

The key word in that sentence is, “main.” What does this word mean? I am not trying to say that the, “only” topic on our minds should be Christ, but it should be the main. ….Personally, I feel as though Christ should be the only topic on our minds…but others cannot handle that….I also struggle with it…

I believe that it is ok to ask about people’s health, work, school but at a moderate degree. I think that in the shoutout box there is completely nothing spiritual…and that needs improvement.

We should all examine this…

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Biboboy

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 01:18 AM

Agape,

Well, instead of criticizing the shoutbox and the people who use it (which isn't a spiritual topic), how about you avoid the hypocrisy by beginning a spiritual topic in the shoutbox?

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

Katherine

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 02:18 AM

I promised myself I would not get involved in this, but I just couldn't help putting in my two cents. I should warn you, it is almost completely irrelevant to the shoutbox, so admins, feel free to delete:

George, I understand your point that we should always be focused on Christ and I agree. However, I think you are being a tad illogical and extreme. If the only non-Christ centred discussions we were to have with others are "to ask about people’s health, work, and school but at a moderate degree" then nobody on this earth would ever laugh.

I have only lived on this planet for 16 years, but what I've learned in this short time is that the happiest people with the deepest friendships and the strongest relationships are those with the ability to laugh. They are the people who do nothing but joke around all day about completely random issues (unless of course they are discussing a serious topic like Christ or personal problems).

"Okay Katherine.....what's your point?" is probably what everybody is thinking right now. Well, my point is that without laughter and without those silly discussions about chocolate milk and writing plays about the Mafia, and how much better Mississauga is over Kitchener and those Waterlosers, these deep relationships that God wants us to have with each other won't realistically exist. Even the most uptight of people, relax and act silly when they develop friendships.

If people were to not laugh about useless subjects, they will not be social with each other and thus will live a lonely and unfullfilled life. God wants us to be able to enjoy our time with each other, and He wants us to have friends, and to have deep relationships, and to be happy. This happiness is ultimately found in Christ, but it can also be found in bonding with other members of Christ's church. People bond with others and have the positive friendships they have through joking and laughing and talking about things other than the mundane responsibilities of their lives like attending school and paying the bills.

Even though acting silly may not be seen as focusing on Christ, Christ is still within these conversations that you see as wasteful. Where else could we get the love for one another as we laugh and joke but from Christ's love for us?

I apologize for the above not making any sense. Blame in on my back-to-school blues, and pray for me as I am applying to university this year!

Cheers and God Bless,

Katherine

PS: George, this wasn't meant to sound insulting, bold, or hostile in any way. If I do come off that way, please forgive me.

PPS: Admins, feel free to delete my ramblings. I will not be offended.

Joined: Apr 27, 2006 | Posts: 54
Location: Virgin Mary and St. Athanasius, Mississauga

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 03:13 AM

Katherine,

Let me share with you my commentary on your opinion:

You stated one main point which was that it is okay to have chit chats with people even though it is not focused around Christ because Christ wants us to have friendships and by chatting about pointless subjects we can build friendships. I agree….but only to a very minuet degree….let me explain…

I think that friendships need to start finding their foundation in God and not in worldly issues. I think that in Christ you will be able to laugh, cry, smile, have joy etc… People sometimes get the idea that when you are always focused on Christ (which is what I am trying to prove we should all always do) then you become this dull being having no character in you at all. I feel that it is the exact opposite. The most interesting people that I meet are the ones that can’t stop speaking about God because they are just sooooo filled. Why can’t we be this filled? ...this is a self meditation question…

Here’s a question… Have you ever been to the monastery? Do the monks ever speak about the worldly issues? Or, are they always focused on God? Do they ever speak about, “chocolate milk and writing plays about the Mafia, and how much better Mississauga is over Kitchener and those Waterlosers…?” …..I think that my point is obvious…the monks are always focused on Christ and we should be too….

Now, I understand that we are not all as a high spirited as monks, but we should always try our bust to mimic them, for they are the most pleasing to God…

By the way, there are a lot of things that you can talk about and still have God as the main topic in your discussion.

Bottom line: A person who is spiritually filled will always find ways to make tons of friends, laugh, cry, joke, etc… and still be completely focused in Christ.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Cephas

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 03:41 AM

¿ Iryny nem agapy>

George,

I have a problem with this statement right here:

From geomekhaiel:
Here’s a question… Have you ever been to the monastery? Do the monks ever speak about the worldly issues? Or, are they always focused on God? Do they ever speak about, “chocolate milk and writing plays about the Mafia, and how much better Mississauga is over Kitchener and those Waterlosers…?” …..I think that my point is obvious…the monks are always focused on Christ and we should be too….

First off, how can you compare us to the monks? That doesn't make even the slightest sense. Monks are men who have been called to serve God in a very special and unique way. They have left the world, and no longer live in it. Thus, they dedicate their lives to prayer, fasting and contemplation. We, on the other hand, have not left the world, but are very much involved in it. As such, for us to ignore what goes on around us is foolish. Living in the world requires that we deal with 'worldly' issues.

I believe Bishoy said it best when he posted the following:

From Biboboy:You can talk about work, school, TV, and life in general and still be a Christian. We are living in the world, and are expected to act and talk as people living in the world, provided that we don't become "of" the world.
The only way a person can dedicate 100% of their time to Christ is if they choose the monastic life, and not everyone is called to it. But that is okay, because Christ doesn't require us to all become monks or nuns. Again, moderation is the key. There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about TV shows, movies, music or anything else, so long as it does not consume us and take all our time. A balance must be struck.

Now, while I'm sure you mean well, I think it is important that we all should focus on ourselves before we attempt to address certain 'faults' we may see in others. Since I know you respond well to Bible verses, here are a couple to contemplate on:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." (Philippians 2:12)

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?" (Matthew 7:3,4)

"Peter, seeing him [the Beloved Disciple], said to Jesus, 'But Lord, what about this man?' Jesus said to him, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.'" (John 21:21,22).

Now you may wonder what the purpose of these three verses is. Well, it's simple, focus on yourself, work on your self, improve yourself and pray for the others.

Please pray for me.

_________________
Cevac ¨
<ere peniwt Abba Paule pimenrit `nte P=,=c

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
-- Philippians 4:13

"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"
-- Mark 9:24

"Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
-- Jeremiah 29:12-13

Joined: Aug 06, 2004 | Posts: 612
Location: St. Paul the Anchorite Coptic Orthodox Church, London, Ontario

HopelessCase113

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 04:24 AM

even though I don't really use it (hmm, maybe I will be start), i agree and see George's point clearly. I see we can use it as a means to encourage each other in our spiritual struggles and see, feel, and touch Our Lord through other Copts.

But about the monks, I personally love the monastery and the monks, I wish I could go more often. But His Holiness Pope Shenouda III said, If you cannot leave the world, leave it in its essence.

We are strangers and sojourners in this world anyway. We should be very concerned for our salvation. We are in war and we are sleeping sadly! How easy it is to become wounded in war while we are sleeping!

Sometimes the forums don't get as much attention or are more formal than the shoutbox...

Maybe in there we can ask others about things that we need help with, like our weaknesses, and ask about theology, or ask certain spiritually related questions.

I know I have went on about nothing, but I agree with George.

Forgive me if this post have no clear point or if anyone is offended by anything I said.

Pray for me

_________________
My joy is in Your praise, my splendor is in Your glory, O My Lord Jesus Christ, to You is due all glory.

Who am I, who is weaker than all who are on the earth, to speak of your honor, O Mary, the daughter of Joachim.

Holy Mighty, who by weakness showed forth what is greater than power.

Joined: Oct 11, 2004 | Posts: 227

tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 04:50 AM

u want to know whats really scary . is that members spend so much time on this site , that we actually argue about the it and its members . which makes me conclude ..That is the ultimate Waste of time .

. If a member is spiritual dependant on this site ... then i feel that member is wrong . i always looked at this site as a way of getting information about my religion , and also to seek advice from people around the world when my world around me has failed me .

I think Boy george is indeed a little boy . How do u expect us to pray 24/7 and think of christ 24/7 . its unrealistic .. sure thats great .. but lets remain real ... didnt St anthony get bored once from praying so much and stuff , so god made him sew palms and stuff to occupy his time .


After saying that .
To be completely honest within my soul . i myself am looking to wipe the internet and television completely away from my life .

Books r Great ..... Reading on a Dream .

Joined: Apr 09, 2004 | Posts: 1220
Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 05:13 AM

I agree with Cephas and Biboboy. The church and the Bible make a clear distinction between those who have chosen celibacy and consecration (i.e Monks and nuns) and the militant church living in this world. Not only are we not required to give up the world and physically remove ourselves from everything non-spiritual, but its a very dangerous attitude to breed guilt in people who did not adopt this type of life. Christianity loves and blesses both monks and husbands....nuns and wives, and its only a misinformed, naive perspective to think one is holier than the other or more elite or more worthy of emulation. Do not forget that our Synaxarium is full of stories about both monks and people in the world. Married people and celibates. Clergy and laity....

People with this attitude are those who either end up pursuing a life in monasticism while unprepared, resulting in failure.....or lead an unhappy marriage feeling guilty about their worldly affairs and wishing they were holy enough to pursue the more elite level of Christianity.

Thats what I believe.

George, I was playing ping pong for 3 hrs straight with a good churchy kid 2 weeks ago. I highly doubt he was thinking of God the entire time, and I highly doubt God was displeased by this innocent act of Chrisitan fellowship...makes u wonder.

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1782

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 11:52 AM

I have to go to work for the next 12 hours...when i come home i'll reply to what you guys have said. You raise interesting points...but, i'm not convinced....

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Misteka

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 02:38 PM

You'll never be convinced, dear George. Because you don't think you could possibly be wrong. You're fully convinced of what you believe, do, preach, and expect others to do.

And you're also fully convinced if that others don't subscribe to the ideology and faith-life system you're promoting, they are totally wrong.

Joined: Oct 05, 2005 | Posts: 194
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

carolb

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 04:48 PM

Topic has been moved to the Copticheritage site support forum, as this matter is mostly relevant to that site.

Joined: Mar 25, 2004 | Posts: 402
Location: Southern California

Katherine

posted on Sep 05, 2006 - 05:32 PM

From geomekhaiel:
I think that friendships need to start finding their foundation in God and not in worldly issues.

But the friendships that we have with other Copts do have their foundation in God. People on this site have met each other through the common interest of having God in their lives.

From geomekhaiel:

Here’s a question… Have you ever been to the monastery? Do the monks ever speak about the worldly issues? Or, are they always focused on God? Do they ever speak about, “chocolate milk and writing plays about the Mafia, and how much better Mississauga is over Kitchener and those Waterlosers…?” …..I think that my point is obvious…the monks are always focused on Christ and we should be too….

Yes, I have been to a monastery actually . And you know what? The most surprising thing that I found at the monastery was that there was a basketball court . Did I ever see the monks playing basketball? No, but I do have my suspicions...

Anyways. Yes, I agree the monks were always focused on God. But you know what else the monks did? Abouna Moussa took pictures almost everyday, and the next day, we found the pictures printed out in Anba Karas' memorial room. Abouna Anastasi held a little birthday/goodbye party for 3 girls, and 2 of the guys who were leaving us. There was watermelon as cake (we were fasting) and presents. Abouna Antonios told us the story of when he and the other monks took a bishop to Disneyland! Do I doubt for one instance that they had stopped focusing on Christ? No, not at all! The monks constantly had their focus on Christ, but that doesn't mean that they don't talk about anything else.

From geomekhaiel:
A person who is spiritually filled will always find ways to make tons of friends, laugh, cry, joke, etc… and still be completely focused in Christ.

Well, in my opinion, the shoutbox on copticheritage.org is a perfect example of a way we can make tons of friends, laugh, cry, joke, etc... and still be completely focused in Christ.

God bless,

Katherine

Joined: Apr 27, 2006 | Posts: 54
Location: Virgin Mary and St. Athanasius, Mississauga

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 12:37 AM

Hi all,

It’s very difficult for me to make long replies to everyone separately (simply because I don’t have time…I’m a busy man lately…)… Therefore, I’ll just reply to everyone by making very simple points (if you feel like addressing any of them, then please do) :

1. Cephas, We should mimic the monks…I already stated that I don’t expect everyone to run off to the monastery…but we should copy them, for they copy Christ.

2. Cephas, we may live in the world but our spirits need to always be uplifted to heaven at all times (meaning that we should talk is though we are not of this world, think as though we are not if this world, and live as though we are not of this world…..because we truly aren’t of this world).

3. Caphas, concerning examining myself before assisting others: Well, I do examine myself. And I also find faults in myself, but I am trying hard to fix my faults…now, as I do that, I try to help my brothers and sisters…I’m really trying not to be a hypocrite here…

4. Tony, praying 24/7 and thinking of Christ 24/7 are much of the same thing…

5. Ramez, in theory monks/nuns maybe as spiritual as husbands/wives. But I have a hard time believing that’s how it is in reality…especially these days.

6. Misteka, you may have a point….BUT I’m not calling myself, “the all-knowledge full George” but rather, I’m just having a heated up debate on whether or not something is right or wrong.

7. Katherine, I disagree with you. Why?... Simply because if any Christian relationship is founded in Christ then the topic of discussion should be Christ. I feel that I cannot have a friend, in Christ, without continuously keeping God as the main topic of discussion.

8. Also Katherine, I have probably been to the monastery soooo many times more than you (seeing that I live under two hours of driving from the monastery)…I’ve been there about 5 times in the last month or so… I go to the monastery a lot and spend a few weeks at a time…most of the time. The reason I am telling you this is because I know each monk very well, and how each monks lives his life. And a constant factor that I find is that they are all always praying. …concerning the bball court, well that has its spiritual reasoning in it…. If you want an explanation then pm me…

George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 02:15 AM

From geomekhaiel:Hi all,

4. Tony, praying 24/7 and thinking of Christ 24/7 are much of the same thing…


George Mekhaiel

...
umm , duh .... how was saying that any sort of reply to me ?

hey george , on days that i feel like it .... i walk down the street listening and singing to abdel halim hafez .... instead of hymns ..... what is ur opinion on this ?

apparently ... u played ping pong for 3 hours str8 with your cousin . so ur not that deticated to serving god and meditating on god as u make ur self appear to be . 2 be quite honest , i feel ur quite contradictory . and well thats no suprise . Boy george ... im going to give u the answer that u like giving me so much ... Go ask ur FOC about this ... and see what he says . u should be ashamed of urself wasteing ur time fighting with your fellow copts on the internet when u could be praying right now and meditating on god ... sinner ! Leave him satan ! Ask ur foc of confession if argueing with copts online is a waste of time or not .... see what he says .... actually question your whole life ... it would be a bit contradictory ... becuase ur the type of person who likes to bamboozle the sane portion of the average brain who pays attention to u . becuase right now , as u read the words im typeing , im taking away seconds from u where u could be praying and focusing on god . so see , even u boy george could be sucked into the realm of wasteing time .. becuase the devil is so clever and is useing us against each other .. and benifitting from this convo ... what a waste of time to be having this convo ... isnt saying that ironic ? .. right now .. ur wasteing time ... stop reading what i have to say .... dont u have anything better to do ?


tony

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Location: IN THE back of your mind .navagating through your heart , resting in your soul .

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 02:42 AM

Tony and others,

The reason I spend three hours with my cousin is because I haven’t seen him for a few months from before that. And I wasn’t playing ping pong the entire time…I was watching him and my brother play most of the time.

Now, just to give you some insight… abouna antionious (from the monastery) taught me that while doing all things we should pray the Jesus Prayer. I’m not saying that I was praying the Jesus Prayer while playing ping pong….but this might be a good practice.

…I have never confessed to being perfect… I have my own struggles…. But I am trying to work at not wasting time.

Concerning wasting time in this thread: I disagree… Why?.. because we are focusing on an issue which deals directly with our own spirituality.

Tony, please stop making me look like the bad guy. I am not attempting to insult anyone. I am just making points to help all grow spiritually. Please consider the real spiritual danger in wasting time on unimportant issues. I work on this myself, and I just ask that we all give some focus to it.

Here is an example that may help you understand where I am coming from:

There is a guy who discovered that chocolate milk has some various in it that causes cancer. So, he goes and tells all his brothers and sisters to stop drinking chocolate milk. His brothers and sisters rebuke him just because they seem to like drinking chocolate milk and don’t want to stop. They don’t see anything wrong with drinking chocolate milk, so they refuse to drink it. They don’t seem to even want to look at all the work and research that their brother has done. Their brother is in some pain because he sees his brothers and sisters doing this bad habit and not wanting to stop even though he is explaining to them in every possible way that chocolate milk causes cancer. Later on these brothers and sisters get cancer, due to drinking chocolate milk, and have to suffer in their lives just because they decided to close their ears to the words of their caring brother. (This is a factual story…but it really depicts how I feel right now)…

How many can honestly say that they have truly examined this issue…even with a foc…?

George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Misteka

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 07:57 AM

Ya ibni, the thing is we're trying to tell you that there is no issue!

Joined: Oct 05, 2005 | Posts: 194
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 12:37 PM

hmm...

No, there definitely is an issue. The issue is that I see everyone wasting time and not being spiritually focused (and I must admit that I myself fall into this as well) and they don't seem to want to examine it. The other thing that real bothers me is that this is happening on a Christian Website which is supposed to be constantly promoting spiritual growth.

This issue is a very serious one and it makes me feel as though we are living in the time period of the church of Laodicea (which is a very troubling thing to feel). We have to stop being lukewarm and restore the fiery spirit of the early church. I don't see God as very pleased by our lack of focus...

George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

m_a_r_o

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 01:10 PM

Aghape...

Issue or no issue.. it seems as though everyone has a very strong stand on this "problem" and no one is willing to change...

George, all I can say is that you're trying to help... but the people you are helping don't need and never asked for help.. so it just seems like unnessecary critisim...

If you don't like the shoutbox don't use.. and if you find it useful go ahead, and you don't have to justify your actions...

I just hope that we stop wasting time on such a simple debate and focus more on the fellowship that we only "talk" about!

YSIC,

Maro

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Joined: Dec 18, 2005 | Posts: 141
Location: winTerpeg.. ManiSnowba

tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 05:12 PM

From geomekhaiel:

. The issue is that I see everyone wasting time and not being spiritually focused (and I must admit that I myself fall into this as well) and they don't seem to want to examine it.

George Mekhaiel


dude ... u see everyone wasteing time ??? .. u barely know any of us ... and anything that u do happen to know about us is only information that we reveal on the internet .. u have no idea whom on this site is close or far from god ..you will never ever be in a position to be questioning peoples spiritual life ... u should end it here ... and i seriously seriously think u need to rexamine ur life .... It's said u go to church alot and know alot of hymns ... this is good ... but i wonder if u actually understand the church / bible / the teachings of jesus christ / and the foundation of christianity ... or do u live by the letter of the law and u disregard the heart of the law .

Am i judgeing u ? ... No .. im questioning ur intentions the way a laywer would to a murderer .

and after saying that ... let me say this ... no matter how much u deny u were doing it ... ...

. YOU ARE IN NO POSITION WHATSOEVER TO BE JUDGEING ..and thats percisely what u were doing .. u were judgeing .... and the quote i took from your post proves that ....
.

Only true wisdom is knowing that YOU know nothing . ( socarates )

Peace .

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geomekhaiel

posted on Sep 06, 2006 - 11:42 PM

Maro,

I can see where your frustration is coming from, seeing that you are a big shoutout box user…

Just because they don’t need or didn’t ask for my help doesn’t mean that I should try to help… If you see a brother falling and he doesn’t ask for your help, don’t you still give it because you know the true danger of what your brother is doing?

That’s what I’m doing…

George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Ojala

posted on Sep 07, 2006 - 12:33 AM

George,

Please understand that I’m not trying to judge or accuse you of anything here…

I think you need to take a long, honest look at yourself. Not only you, but we all have to, beh sarr-aha.

I’ve noticed, from what I remember of your posts, that you frequently try to correct people. Brother, be careful when doing this. What position are you in? What presumptions do you make in doing this? You imply that a brother, or somebody, here is falling, and so you feel obliged to help. Habibi, who is falling that you feel needs to be rescued or helped by you? Or rather, who is not falling?

I’ll tell you one thing: we all need help. Not because of a shoutbox, but because of the many sins which are rooted in our own self-deception. If you truly want to play a role in somebody’s spiritual life, or to inspire repentance, do so in Christ’s way. Remember the proverb, “A gentle word turns away anger,” and it also turns a person away from their sin.

And if not for the commandments or God’s sake, then stay away from judging for your own sake. Resist the rationalization that you need to help; it is deception – unless you feel a deep and genuine wave of compassion which you acknowlegdge as coming from God. Otherwise, for your own sake, be careful; because, I promise you, whenever we judge others, we will either already be committing that sin while judging them, or we will soon commit that sin. I believe in this 100 percent, not a doubt in my mind.

So if you begin to judge someone, be prepared to find yourself in the same sin. God allows us to fall when we pass judgment to show us that we are also weak and are struggling with our own issues and sins. And that we are just as capable of falling into sin as the guy in front of us. I’m telling you, the one and only reason we are not drowing in every type of sin and disgraceful thing known to mankind is because of God’s kindness and mercy: He has kept us from doing it, whether by shielding us from having a particular weakness or by withholding the opportunity to commit the sin.

And, even more, those who we see are sinning, those who are in the depths of fornication or addiction, are stronger than those who are not, because God sees that they are able to get out of it and have the strength to do so (totally accompanied by his grace), and therefore, allows it; whereas those who are not struggling with those sins many times don’t only because God has shielded them like a mother her baby because He knows that He would lose them immediately; they are not strong enough to overcome the sin.

So, the minute you or I judge another with a condemning air for whatever sin – whether it is loose-living, fornication, and yes, even self-righteousness – know that we will soon be in the same boat as they. So, I’m just telling you that if you are judging someone (which you can discover if you look honestly at yourself), then you will commit that sin. And if someone judges you, George, throughout this thread, then they also will fall into the sin they perceive that you are in.

If you think I’ve totally missed the mark and have misunderstood you, then you can totally discard my post of course…

But it’s a real eye-opener when you come to accept this. And there are a ton of stories that prove it.

Joined: Oct 24, 2004 | Posts: 96

Mathitis

posted on Sep 07, 2006 - 01:10 AM

From geomekhaiel:Maro,

I can see where your frustration is coming from, seeing that you are a big shoutout box user…

Just because they don’t need or didn’t ask for my help doesn’t mean that I should try to help… If you see a brother falling and he doesn’t ask for your help, don’t you still give it because you know the true danger of what your brother is doing?

That’s what I’m doing…

George Mekhaiel

George,

This would not be considered as help. It is considered more as you forcing your beliefs into somebody, and that is a sin, much bigger than wasting time because then you are responsible for that other person's salvation. If they fail, you fail ten times as much.

Just to let you know, and don't be offended, but if the spirituality of the forums is lagging a bit, I blame it on you. Instead of doing anything about it, you decide to complain and expect somebody else to fix it for you. Life doesn't work like that.

Like I told you, and will repeat myself again, do not worry about the people who use the shoutbox. I met alot of them, and none of them I am worried about when it comes to spirituality and so on. They are fine. I am sure that they will be so fine that we will be playing football and drinking tons of chocolate milk in heaven .

Also, stop hardening your head and living off the whole "I'm right you're wrong" attitude. Clearly, you are the wrong one in this case, because you make an issue out of nothing, and cause alot of people to be angry at you for your rambo-style take on spirituality. That is not the way to go. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

This is a Chrisitan site, and with a shoutbox on a Christian site, people will be much nicer towards each other. Can that be spiritually beneficial? OF COURSE! They will learn to love others without ever meeting them! What does that do? Helps them love strangers. And when they go to other places, they wont feel as if they are strangers; They have already met great people through the site, got to know them a bit, and then meeting them face to face is much easier. Don't beleive me? Ask me or Tony or some of the other members.

This shoutbox has done nothing but really create more of a fellowship among fellow copts on this site, and distance doesn't feel like a factor at all. We are getting closer as a community, not only from the shoutbox or from the site, but from other blessings, and the two I mentionned are among these blessings.

George, I honestly feel that you are suffering spiritually, a bit more than your usual sufferings, yet you may be denying it or making yourself seem as you are in control. Either way, that is dangerous for you, and eventually for others. Please do not be angry at me or anything, I am just trying to make you aware of what's really happenning.

Matt

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