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tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 15, 2006 - 02:26 AM

i posted the article below . i was wondering what are your reactions to this recent event that will shape the end of the world .

tony .









Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Kuwait, Turkey and Pakistan have criticised Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks about Islam and urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer.


Ali Bardakoglu, head of the state-run religious affairs directorate in Turkey, said on Thursday that Pope Benedict XVI was "full of enmity and grudge" against Islam. He opposed the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November.

Bardakoglu also demanded that the pope immediately retract and issue an apology for his remarks about Islam and his criticism of the concept of Holy War.

The pontiff's remarks "reflect the hatred in his heart. It is a statement full of enmity and grudge", Bardakoglu told the NTV news channel on Thursday.

"It is a prejudiced and biased approach."

The controversy

During a six-day visit to his native Germany this week, the pope hit out at Islam and its concept of jihad or holy war, citing a 14th-century Christian emperor who said that Prophet Muhammad had brought the world "evil and inhuman" things.

"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," he said on Tuesday in an address at Regensburg University.

"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul"

Pope Benedict XVI


The Vatican press office said in a statement the pope had not intended to carry out an in-depth study of jihad (holy war) and Muslim thinking about it, "even less to offend the sensitivity of the Muslim faithful".

Federico Lombardi, the Vatican chief spokesman, said: "It is clear that the Holy Father's intention is to cultivate a position of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, and that clearly includes Islam."

He said a careful reading of the Pope's lecture would show that "what really matters to the Holy Father is a clear and radical rejection of religious motives for violence".


Bardakoglu, however, described them as unacceptable.

"[The pope's] approach is a spoilt and cocksure point of view that looks down on the other. At times, we also criticise the Christian world for its wrongs, but we never defame either Christ or the Bible or the holiness of Christianity."

In comments to the Anatolia news agency, Bardakoglu said the pope carried the same mindset as that "of the Crusades" which arose from the Church's view that Islam is the enemy.

Kuwait

In Kuwait, two high-ranking Islamist officials also called on Pope Benedict XVI to apologise for his remarks.

Haken al-Mutairi, secretary-general of the emirate's Umma (Islamic Nation) party, urged the pope to to apologise immediately "to the Muslim world for his calumnies against the Prophet Muhammad and Islam".

Al-Mutairi hit out at the pope's "unaccustomed and unprecedented" remarks, and linked the Catholic Church leader's comments to "new Western wars currently under way in the Muslim world in places such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon".


The pope criticised the growing
secularisation of Western society

The pope's statements amounted to "the pursuit of Crusades", he said.

"I call on all Arab and Islamic states to recall their ambassadors from the Vatican and expel those from the Vatican until the pope says he is sorry for the wrong done to the Prophet and to Islam, which preaches peace, tolerance, justice and equality," al-Mutairi said.

Sayed Baqer al-Mohri, head of the assembly of Shia ulemas, or theologians, in Kuwait, labelled the pope's comments "unrealistic and unjustified", and also called on him to apologise.

"His unjustified attack on Islam and the Prophet Muhammad clearly contradicts his call for dialogue between civilisations," Mohri said. "It opens the way to animosity between religions.

"We demand that the pope make a public apology" to help bring an end to animosity.

Pakistan

The pope was also criticised by Muslim scholars and religious leaders in Pakistan who urged him to play a positive role in bringing Islam and Christianity closer.

Khurshid Ahmed, head of the Institute of Policy Studies in Islamabad, said: "It is very unfortunate that a religious leader of his stature is issuing statements which can fan religious disharmony.

"The Pope is a respected personality not only for Christians but for Muslims also. He should not lower his stature by giving Bush-like statements"

Hafiz Hussain Ahmed,
a leader of the Pakistani Jammiat Ulema-e-Islam party

"The Pope's attitude is very different from his predecessor. Instead of bringing Islam and Christianity closer, he is straining relations between the two religions," Ahmed said.

"In the present political atmosphere such views can be exploited by those who are trying to malign Muslims and Islam.

"We expect the Pope to play a positive role in promoting relations between religions and civilisations.

"The Pope's views about the role of Sharia [Islamic law] and jihad are at variance with Muslim beliefs."

Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, a leader of the Jammiat Ulema-e-Islam party and an MP, urged the Pope not to take inspiration from George Bush, the US president.

He said: "The Pope is a respected personality not only for Christians but for Muslims also. He should not lower his stature by giving Bush-like statements."

Shahid Shamsi, spokesman for the Jamaat-i-Islami party, said:"The Pope's statement was an attempt to jeopardise a remarkable unity displayed by Christians and Muslims against recent Israeli aggression in Lebanon."

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maria_2005

posted on Sep 15, 2006 - 04:12 AM

† Aghapy,

I’m not sure if Pope Benedict XVI was in his state of mind when he spoke this publicly! Honestly, people of authority should watch what they talk about, because at the end they are not the ones who get affected by their staggering remarks. It is evident that Islam and Christianity will never be in harmony, because that would be contradicting everything we believe in. It is a known fact that us Christians don’t approve of Islam, therefore there is no point to display it publicly, knowing that it will bring more hate and wars to the world.

Not very wise of Pope Benedict XVI to make these remarks, may God forgive him, and have mercy on His children. Let us hope this issue doesn’t cause more violence and damage to our world, cause there is enough corruption as it is.

Please pray for the salt,
God bless,

Maria †

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exGreek

posted on Sep 15, 2006 - 10:56 AM

Just like Rome to go from one extreme to the next: Pope John Paul II with his pluralism...and now Pope Benedict XVI with his animosity. When will the Church take the middle road of agreeing to disagree?

Also: as I've said time and time again, Islam has no concept of a "binding tradition" by which their Holy Book is to be interpreted. Therefore, if Muslims use any verse as a justification for violence it is because they, of their own free will, interpreted the verse as such. The rest of the Islamic world is free either to regard such verses as figurative or to regard more peaceful Surah's as abrogating the former.

Sadly, when the end times come and Christians are persecuted it will be 80% our own fault for our unnecessitated belligerence.

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mgeorge

posted on Sep 15, 2006 - 11:28 AM

Hello everyone,
Tony, I would like to point out that this article lacks the actual context of the pope's remark. It is 95% about others point of view, but I see that the pope's portion doesn't clarify the circumstance of what he said. Although His Holiness Pope Benedict made certain remark, we must be quite careful not to judge anyone nor generalize; otherwise we will be spreading the spirit of hatred among ourselves. This is not to say that I agree or even tolerate with what el-mojahideen do, but what happened to good old (actually not old either) "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" Mat 5:43

As for Maria’s excellent post, I would like to point out one thing (with all due respect and I mean it) let's just be a little more careful with our wording, especially on a public forum. I am not trying to offend you, that's totally not my intention, yet let's also respect the Pope and not label His Holiness as "unwise" or anything of this sort the same way we would revere any of our Bishops, yes we may not agree with them, but we wouldn't say that they made the wrong choice, at least not on a public forum. After all God has appointed Pope Benedict to take care of the largest body of Christianity in today's world. Again I present you with deep apology if I offended you, but believe me I loved your post and I am not here to start a controversy either.

God Bless

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<i>"Till we all come in the <u>unity of the faith</u>, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, <b>unto a perfect man</b>, unto the measure of the stature of <u>the fulness of Christ</u>" (Ephesians 4:13)</i> <b>AMEN.</b>

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Biboboy

posted on Sep 16, 2006 - 03:44 AM

Agape,

This is non-sense! People in the Islamic world are taking less than 2% of the whole point of the speech and treat it as the 100%. Pope Benedict was talking about Faith and Reason in the context of the life in University, since he visited the university he used to study in. He wasn't attacking Islam. He was using a story to make an entirely different point about using human reason to arrive to God, which is something no Muslim would agree with anyway.

I'm not sure what this whole reaction is about. There's just too much anger that people are just ready to burst without being intelligently aware of what is being said.

Click on the link below for the whole speech to this message. You can read it for yourself and see how the reaction is just pointless.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... 6_pope.pdf

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
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CopticSoldier

posted on Sep 16, 2006 - 04:03 AM

I would also love it if the leaders who have spoken out against the pope would have their surmons checked for anti-Christian comments. I find it hard to believe that they would be free from the criticisms they're levelling at Pope Benedict.

CS

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carolb

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 12:25 PM

The sheer irony of the whole thing is that Muslim leaders and scholars were deeply offended that Pope Benedict insinuated Muslims are violent and spread their faith by the sword. Well, look at what has happened in the last week; despite the Pontiff's personal apology, most Muslim groups are saying that is not enough to quell the fire of their anger (including the prominent Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt). Churches in Palestine are being bombed; a nun was killed in Somalia; Muslims everywhere are burning the pope in effigy; and al Quaeda has released a statement promising to slit the throats of "those who worship the Cross". They do themselves a disservice by reacting with violence, but I suppose the obviousness of that point has escaped them.

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emiles

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 02:35 PM

Below is an article mentioning HH Pope Shenounda's reactions to Pope Benedict's statements. Although he appears to qualify it by saying he did not hear the exact words.

God bless,

emiles

Pope’s comments on Islam as against Christ’s teachings’
(AP)

16 September 2006



CAIRO—In the first reaction from a top Christian leader, the head of Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church said in remarks published Saturday that Pope Benedict XVI’s comments on Islam were “against the teachings of Christ.”


Coptic Pope Shenouda III told the pro-government Al Ahram newspaper that he didn’t hear the pope’s exact words, but that “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ.”

“Christianity and Christ’s teachings instruct us not to hurt others, either in their convictions or their ideas, or any of their symbols—religious symbols,” Shenouda was quoted as saying.

Egypt’s Copts, whose liturgy follows Eastern Orthodox Christian traditions rather than the Vatican, account for an estimated 10 percent of Egypt’s 73 million people.

Discontent between the Coptic and Catholic churches began with an East-West rift in Christianity as early as the 5th century, over the rising influence of the papacy. The split was sealed in 1054 with an exchange of anathemas—essentially spiritual repudiations—between the Vatican and the patriarch of Constantinople, now Istanbul, Turkey, and still the spiritual center of Orthodoxy.

Shenouda refused to meet with the late Pope John Paul II when he last visited Egypt.

The Coptic leader’s remarks also reflected fears that Benedict’s comments could spark violence amid already fragile Muslim-Christian relations in Egypt.

Egypt’s roughly seven million Christians generally live in peace with the Muslim majority, but violence flares occasionally, particularly in small southern communities. Many Copts have complained of discrimination.

Benedict made his remarks on Islam in a speech in which he quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

“The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war,” the pope said.

“He said, I quote, ’Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,”’ he quoted the emperor as saying.

Clearly aware of the delicacy of the issue, Benedict added, “I quote,” twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as “brusque,” while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

The comments provoked anger across the Arab and Muslim world. Pakistan’s parliament passed a resolution condemning the comments and radical Islamists held small rallies around the country, while Turkey’s top Muslim cleric asked Benedict to apologize.

On Thursday, the Vatican said the pope had not intended to offend Muslim sensibilities with the remarks.

“It certainly wasn’t the intention of the pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers,” Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, who accompanied the pontiff on the Germany trip, said in a statement after Benedict returned to Rome.

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stevey820

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 03:03 PM

I agree with Carol 100%. They were offended that Pope Benedict said that islam was violent, and yet here they are showing their true colors with bombings and killings of innocent christians. I heard on the news radio today that they plan on killing the west, and the only option to be saved is to convert, if not, you are killed. Read this small paragraph below, a statement from a islamic group.

"The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."



There is a fine line between insulting a group, and merely stating facts. I think what Pope Benedict did was state facts. They are a violent group, and in their own holy book, they are told to "Kill the infadels." Islam is a violent and hateful religion, and I am not insulting them, but rather stating a fact.

Here in the NY area, we recently commemorated the events of 9/11, and no one knows the horror that Al Qaida, a muslim fundamentalist group has caused. I listned to family members read off the names of their loved ones and break down into tears, and here Al Qaida is planning another attack. Violence and hatred is all they know.

May God have mercy on us and on them, and I urge us all to pray for the peace of the world, and for our beloved brothers and sisters in Egypt. Also, may God shine his light upon these Islamic leaders and guide their cold hearts into the right path

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exGreek

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 04:53 PM

Bosh! ...never happened. All these stories are contrived non-sense or they were actors paid by our Zionist government to infuriate the West at Muslims even more by seeing them portrayed as belligerent anger-mongers.

....chill: I'm kidding (mostly).

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Biboboy

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 06:49 PM

Agape,

emiles, in the news article it said: "Shenouda refused to meet with the late Pope John Paul II when he last visited Egypt."

On the contrary, H.H. Pope Shenouda did meet (and hug!) the late Pope John Paul II when he visited Egypt in 2000.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 751

Remnkemi

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 07:38 PM

There is something we need to clarify here.

Carol, Steve and others mentioned the violent acts. But no one has distinguised or clearly demarcated that these acts are being done by fundamental groups, not moderate Muslims. Pope Shenouda correctly defended Islam and moderate Muslims.

I don't think Pope Benedicts comments clearly identified this.

Now granted, the riots that followed Pope Benedict's comments are probably not from moderate Muslims. And if moderate Muslims raised their voices against fundamental terrorist attacks, there would be no question about the Pope's comments.

And I personally don't understand how they can take comments about violence and jihad as an attack on Mohammad and Islam. If Islam and Mohammad preach peace, then the Pope's comments can only be directed against those who use violence intermingled with Islamic fundamentalism. First they need to identify who the true Muslim is, ie, one who doesn't use violence. Then any comments made on the true Muslim can be an attack on Mohammad. But since they haven't done the first step. There is no logical reason to think, Pope Benedicts comments attacked Mohammad.

And those who demand apologies should realize apologies, like respect, is two ways. If they want an apology for his comments, we should get an apology for 9/11, not to mention mass religious genocide in New Zealand, Serbia, Africa, and foremost Egypt.

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Remnkemi

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 07:39 PM

From Biboboy:On the contrary, H.H. Pope Shenouda did meet (and hug!) the late Pope John Paul II when he visited Egypt in 2000.
Just goes to show you can never believe the media.

George

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exGreek

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 07:40 PM

New Zealand?...Am I missing something? What happened there?

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exGreek

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 07:42 PM

From Remnkemi:From Biboboy:On the contrary, H.H. Pope Shenouda did meet (and hug!) the late Pope John Paul II when he visited Egypt in 2000.
Just goes to show you can never believe the media.

George

Especially the Zionist, KKKapitalist, anti-muslim media of the U.S. (what's even more laughable is people who have the nerve of calling it the "liberal" media)

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Remnkemi

posted on Sep 18, 2006 - 09:04 PM

Sorry exGreek, I meant Indonesia. There is a very large Muslim community and government. And there has been religious wars in the past.

George

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alexg313

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 02:09 AM

When I think of fundamentalist "Christians", I think of those individuals that go around bombing abortion clinics, or the protestant and catholic gangs of "Christians" that routinely attack each other in Ireland. What makes them FUNDAMENTALISTS is the fact that they strayed away from the teachings of Christianity, and the ones tagging them as fundamentalists are the real Christians themselves who completely oppose what they are doing and expel them from their churches, as has been done.

Those of you that are talking about "fundamentalism" in Islam are either very disjointed from reality or have very little knowledge of Islam. Fundamentalist Islam is the true form of Islam. The moderate Muslims you speak of (if they exist) are the ones that are straying away from their teachings, its those "moderates" (those that dont kill the infidels) that should be called fundamentalists.

Did "the prophet" (peace be upon him, of course) really teach peace, acceptance, justice and equality as was claimed by every high ranking cleric in the last few days? Or did he go around with his band wagon of criminals cutting off the heads of men, women and children who wouldn't convert to his new teachings? How do you suppose Egypt, an entirely Coptic nation, became a muslim country? Did the Copts of the time suddenly realize that Christ wasn't the true God, and that Allah was the right choice? We're here today because one way or another our fore fathers escaped the sword of Islam. The least we could do is be honest with ourselves, breathe in some common sense and realize that Islam and peace have nothing in common.

Should we love our enemies? Yes. Should we pray for them? Yes. But do we really need to applaud them while they terrorize the whole world or stand by their side while they kill our brothers and sisters anywhere they can? I never read that anywhere in the Bible, maybe I missed sunday school that week.

The fact that our church underwent enormous persecution throughout the centuries, whether it was under Rome or Islam, was no doubt a huge blessing for us, it gave us our saints, our martyrs and it actually increased the faithful. But that doesn't excuse their actions.

George, I usually like your posts and I like you personally of course, but i have a problem with some of the things you mentioned, so i'm gonna quote you a bit.

"Now granted, the riots that followed Pope Benedict's comments are probably not from moderate Muslims."

There were rioters by the tens of thousands all over the world... if those are not the moderate muslims, then where are those sneaky sneaky moderate muslims? The high ranking clerics were part of those protesters and rioters... are you calling them fundamentalists as well?

"And if moderate Muslims raised their voices against fundamental terrorist attacks, there would be no question about the Pope's comments."

George, I'm not sure i understand you here. You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the contrary, if the "moderates" HAD raised their voices against fundamentalists THEN they would have the right to question the Pope's comments. Not that the Pope's comments deserved this sort of reaction in the first place (refer to bishoy's post).

"I personally don't understand how they can take comments about violence and jihad as an attack on Mohammad and Islam."

The same way we would be offended if someone attacked the teachings of Christianity.

"If Islam and Mohammad preach peace, then the Pope's comments can only be directed against those who use violence intermingled with Islamic fundamentalism."

If i had a magic carpet, I wouldn't need to commute everyday. Unfortunately, i dont have a magic carpet and good old Mo never preached peace. Actually, that's a lie, he preached tolerance while he was weak, so as to not get his butt kicked around. Once he became more powerful tolerance was no longer necessary.

First they need to identify who the true Muslim is, ie, one who doesn't use violence. Then any comments made on the true Muslim can be an attack on Mohammad.

If the true muslim doesn't use violence them Mohammed is not a true muslim. You can do all the regrouping you want, you can put the non-violent muslims in one group and call them "true muslims" and you can put the rest, the majority, in another group and call them "cute little butterflies"... When ppl talk against Islam, they are talking about the teachings of Islam, it doesn't matter what you call that teaching. And the teacher falls in the same group as those who follow his teaching.

And those who demand apologies should realize apologies, like respect, is two ways. If they want an apology for his comments, we should get an apology for 9/11, not to mention mass religious genocide in {indonesia}, Serbia, Africa, and foremost Egypt.

Well said. But the reason we never got an apology is because they still teach that stuff today. When a "Christian" attacks a hospital, every Christian group makes an effort to say they completely disagree with what was done. Over the last few days, EVERY middle eastern country & islamic group has talked against the pope and asked for an apology. But I dont remember hearing a SINGLE high ranking islamic cleric publicly denounce 9/11 - I saw plenty of cheering in the streets of the middle east though.

It's unbelievable! The ranks of Islam are filled with blabbing hypocrites. I really have a hard time swallowing their hypocrisy. And what makes it worse is when some of you defend Islam as a whole. I dont hate muslims, i dont wish them any harm... We're told to LOVE them, to PRAY for them, to do good for them... we're not required to clean up their mess or to make their wrongs seem right.

And for the record, our pope is very restricted in what he can say. When girls are kidnapped and raped, or when churches are attacked and he doesn't say anything, its not because he agrees with it, and its not because his heart lacks emotions - when things like that happens it incredibly saddens him and emotionally drains him - but his duty, his job is to minimize clashes within the country, and always speaking out isn't the best idea. We on the other hand, dont have that limitation. Some ppl seem to be unaware of that.

To end on a good note, I take comfort in knowing that our God is just and incapable of being fooled by anything or anyone. In the end, those that threatened or were violent will have their reward and those that lived peacefully or were persecuted will have their rewards.

Joined: Nov 27, 2003 | Posts: 45

alexg313

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 02:20 AM

From exGreek:
Especially the Zionist, KKKapitalist, anti-muslim media of the U.S. (what's even more laughable is people who have the nerve of calling it the "liberal" media)

So, its the third time you make a comment like that and i'm not sure if you're serious or not. Who said you have to watch the "liberal" media? Nowadays you have access to all medias, so pick the one you like.

In any case, in the last few days, say you watch Al-Jazeera, have they been showing the muslim countries and communities as peaceful ppl or violent? Maybe it wont show you the full extent of their violence, but even Al-Jazeera can't hide the fact that muslims are generally not peaceful. If you dont believe me, turn on Al-Jazeera.

Your comments are also quite biased. The western media is just as harsh on America as it is on muslims. Just dont turn to Fox. Also, i dont remember hearing much about muslims before 9/11. If you watch Al-Jazeera, you'll find out that even moderate aka. non practicing muslims are sick of muslim behaviour.

But chances are, you dont watch/read Al-Jazeera, and so you dont realize that they bash the west more than western, liberal media bashes them.

Joined: Nov 27, 2003 | Posts: 45

shaq

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 04:24 AM

i may be the only one to say this, but i somewhat disagree about what pope Benedict said... its true and all but i dont think its very wise to speak that way in his rank and position...these comments should be said by others and written in books, not by heirarchy like HH... we have to remember we are dealing with hard headed group of people who do not understand logical reasoning... if you cant reach their minds, u have to reach their hearts, their emotions and feelings.

also, alex is right about us speaking up, the christians in Egypt depend on us to speak up because they cant and it makes a huge difference when we do... but all they can do is love the muslims... i was there this past summer and to be honest, the only thing we can do and should do is just show them love despite all the hatred they have, there is really no other way live with them except through love, and that will eventually make a difference... i think God likes it when we realize we are totally helpless so we can rely on Him ...

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Remnkemi

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 04:39 AM

Well I'm glad I got a discussion started. And I'll start out by saying I definitely disagree with you Alex. But that's ok.

The heart of the debate here is "Does Islam teach violence or love?" Once this is answered, we can tell who the real Muslim is.

However, this is not an easy thing to answer. Why? Because it depends who you ask and what answer do you philosophically agree with.

I think there are 4 types of people who would answer this question differently. I am definitely not including Muslims. If you ask a Muslim, any Muslim, they will say Islam does not teach violence. But they are biased to begin with.

So here are the 4 types.
1. Ex-Muslims.
2. Non-Muslim religious scholars.
3. Those who suffer from Muslim attacks; ie, those who can practically give an opinion.
4. Theologians who examine the religion, independent of politics.

Let's start with #1, Ex-Muslims.
Faith Freedom ex-Muslims have no problem telling you the hypocrisy of Islam and the Quaran. They will give you a list "proving" Islam is a religion of violence. Thier list of hypocratic Quaran passage is actually quite famous. But there are 2 problems with their answer. First, they are just as many verses that show Islam is not a religion of violence. I'll get to that in a minute. Second, if you take the Quaran out of context and point only to verses that prove Islam preaches violence, then you face the same hypocrisy with Judaism and Christianity. Is the Jewish God of Deut 6:4, who preaches love, the same God of Deut 19:1 who destroyed many nations to give their lands to the Jewis people? Obviously, the answer is yes and there are many commentaries and responses to this contradiction as well as others. My point is, if you take verses out of context to rationalize a biased belief against Islam, you face the same delimma in Christianity and Judaism. This is why we shouldn't really listen to groups like Faith Freedom.

#2 Non-Muslim religious scholars.
Karen Armstrong wrote 9 books on Islamic jiyahd before 9/11. She is a visiting professor at Harvard. Her view is that Islam does not preach violence.

Here's a nice quote:
Only a small portion of the Muslim world are what we would call fundamentalists and only a tiny proportion take part in acts of terror....MUSLIMS HAVE GOT TO MAKE A HUGE EFFORT NOW TO ENUNCIATE MORE CLEARLY ... THE PEACEFUL, PLURALISTIC ELEMENTS OF THEIR FAITH." Isn't that exactly what I said.

How about Professor Juan Cole who addresses some of those contradictions of Faith Freedom and concludes that Islam does in fact preach peace to Christians and Jews.

Both scholars concluded that there are political reasons, not religious ones, that creates the Osama Bin Ladins and the fundamental jiyhad ideology.

3. Practical Muslim attacks
I have heard many times before, "Unless you see what is happening to Christians in Egypt, you can't possible believe Islam preaches peace." This can be called the realist theory. Ron Dreher articulates this theory very well. In essence he says, Islam may or may not theologically preach violence but practically those who suffer from Muslim persecutions don't have the luxury of speaking theory and theology. They need to survive and they know what Muslims can do. That is why every American Arab Christian he interviewed was afraid to publically accuse Islam because of what their Muslim neighbors can do to them. I think this is the argument that most Copts believe in.

While the argument is convincing, it is nonetheless an opinion of Islam, not a fact. You only need to look at Pope Shenouda to see if this argument holds merit. Alex, you said "And for the record, our pope is very restricted in what he can say...his job is to minimize clashes within the country." But if you think about it. Pope Shenouda himself suffered from Muslim oppression in 1981 when he was under house arrest by President Sadat (among other sufferings). According to this theory, once he got out, he could have said "I suffered from Muslims. I am not talking theory. Islam oppressed me and I am not able to speak against Islam for fear of what will happen to me or the Coptic church." But he never did. In fact, over the years, he has publically shown love for all Muslims: sheikhs, government officials, President Mubarak, or any local Muslim. Pope Shenouda falls under #4 and he is backed up by #2.

#4 The theologian/those who speak theory
If you approach Islam in a scholastic philosophy, you will see that at the heart of Islamic theology they do not advocate jiyad and fundamentalism. Pope Shenouda and others who defend Islam, do so because the truth is Islam preaches love and so does Christianity. From a scholastic point of view, that is the truth.

Finally, Alex you made lots of statements about Islam, Mohammad and the spread of Islam. For example, "Did "the prophet" ... go around with his band wagon of criminals cutting off the heads of men, women and children who wouldn't convert to his new teachings?" Do you have any proof or historical references? Do you have any reliable document to validate this? No. In fact the opposite is true. Read Rev Patrick's "Traditional Egyptian Christianity -History of the Coptic Orthodox Church". In the beginning, Copts lived in peace with early Muslims. It is only until later oppression, under the Fatimds, Ottoman, Ayyubid and later dynasties that Copts were oppressed more and more. The same with the Crusades. Salah al din returned Copts to Jerusalem and gave us Dayr al Sultan in Jerusalem. Does this sound like the actions of a religion that wanted to convert or kill? Not at all. The very fact that anti-Islamic claims are made without any proof or reference is exactly what started the riots.

I hope you do not get offended at me. I hope the discussion can continue. And sorry for the long post.

George

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BoonDockSaint

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 05:59 AM

Shalom,

I am new to this forum, and I am a New member of the Coptic Church. I come from a mixed-religious family of Jewish and Catholic (Mostly Secular) heritage.

I wanted to reply to this thread, because we must accept an important factor. The Catholic Pope, although not right in the way he chose his dialog, he did apologize. Instead of not accepting his apology, like many muslim leaders have chosen to do, they say it's not good enough. Yeshua tells us that if someone asks forgivesness, we should give it.

Killing nuns, burning churches in Palestine is not a good way to prove how peaceful your faith is. Intimidation and violence is not in the vocabulary of the Christian faith, along with disrescpecting others. Nothing excuses violence because of disrespectful words.

Shalom, Bryan

Joined: Sep 19, 2006 | Posts: 5

exGreek

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 07:25 AM

From alexg313:So, its the third time you make a comment like that and i'm not sure if you're serious or not..

I was injecting a little humour into the proverbial Shakespearean melodrama of our discussions. But now that you ask, Yes I am quite serious.

From alexg313:Who said you have to watch the "liberal" media? Nowadays you have access to all medias, so pick the one you like.

I never said you had to watch the "liberal media" (whatever THAT is). I was saying it doesn't exist. Period. And you are quite wrong, ya ustez, that we have access to "all" media. In AmeriKKKa, we only have access to such that are funded by corporations. And as such, said media can only portray the world situation in a way that is palatable to corporate interests. Given this situation, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a "liberal" media by strict definition (as corporations tend to hate the poor and down-trodden).

From alexg313:In any case, in the last few days, say you watch Al-Jazeera, have they been showing the muslim countries and communities as peaceful ppl or violent? Maybe it wont show you the full extent of their violence, but even Al-Jazeera can't hide the fact that muslims are generally not peaceful. If you dont believe me, turn on Al-Jazeera.

Here's another interesting point. How do we know al-jazeera even exists? How do we know it's not a concoction...a mere phantom created by the Western powers-that-be. Perhaps al-jazeera itself is a medium set up by the American military-industrial-propaganda complex, created with the sole purpose of spreading disinformation about Muslims so as to get the American public to back our government up in an invasion whose real purpose is to exploit oil?

From alexg313:Your comments are also quite biased. The western media is just as harsh on America as it is on muslims. Just dont turn to Fox. Also, i dont remember hearing much about muslims before 9/11. If you watch Al-Jazeera, you'll find out that even moderate aka. non practicing muslims are sick of muslim behaviour.

I watch or have watched as you call it "all" forms of media (although in reality it is simply a choice between a. far-right and b. even-more-far-to-the-right). And in none of my 29 years of perusing said media have I ever encountered any anti-American slants. As I have said, the people funding these media have a material interest in the whitewashing of America's profile, so it would be quite impossible for such anti-American bias. In fact, if the media were really liberal or anti-American, much less than be disconcerting, this should actually be praised! To think that rich billionaires could be so philanthropic and humane!

From alexg313:But chances are, you dont watch/read Al-Jazeera, and so you dont realize that they bash the west more than western, liberal media bashes them.

At any rate, even if the Islamic Jihad-fundamentalist complex does exist, it's all the same to me. No difference, really, between that and the hillbilly theocratic xenophobic mentality that exists in our own country, symbolized perfectly in the person of good ole Dubya. Personally, I think we should just destroy each other and let freethinking secular Europe rule out of the ashes, since they seem to be the only ones who really have it together.

I will add one more thing, though. I've said in another post that Islam has no concept of a binding tradition by which their el-Qur'an el-Kareem is to be interpreted. Thus, if a muslim uses violence by verses which supposedly endorse it, he's just as much (but no more or no less) a follower of the Qur'an as someone who looks at those same verses as being figurative or abrogated by more peaceful verses.

War in Christ, David.

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emiles

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 12:13 PM

Greetings,

Biboboy thank you for clarifying the article I posted regarding HH Pope Shenouda III and Pope John Paul II.

God bless,

emiles

Joined: Aug 07, 2004 | Posts: 65

Biboboy

posted on Sep 19, 2006 - 08:50 PM

From alexg313:When I think of fundamentalist "Christians", I think of those individuals that go around bombing abortion clinics, or the protestant and catholic gangs of "Christians" that routinely attack each other in Ireland. What makes them FUNDAMENTALISTS is the fact that they strayed away from the teachings of Christianity, and the ones tagging them as fundamentalists are the real Christians themselves who completely oppose what they are doing and expel them from their churches, as has been done.

Actually, fundametalist Christians are people, mainly Protestants, who take the Holy Bible in the literal sense only. The first clash with fundamentalists arose with the theory of evolution and the debate with what they believed was a literal 7 day creation.

Those of you that are talking about "fundamentalism" in Islam are either very disjointed from reality or have very little knowledge of Islam. Fundamentalist Islam is the true form of Islam.

There is no such thing as "fundamentalist" Islam. It's not correct to identify those people who take the Quran literally as fundamentalists (since the Quran is normally interpreted literally by clerics, except by Sufis). The correct terms are "extremist Islam" or "political Islam".

Did "the prophet" (peace be upon him, of course) really teach peace, acceptance, justice and equality as was claimed by every high ranking cleric in the last few days?

Yes he did.

Or did he go around with his band wagon of criminals cutting off the heads of men, women and children who wouldn't convert to his new teachings?

No he didn't.

I think Moses, Joshua, the Judges and the Israelites did worse - there was no option of conversion, either.

How do you suppose Egypt, an entirely Coptic nation, became a muslim country? Did the Copts of the time suddenly realize that Christ wasn't the true God, and that Allah was the right choice?

Actually, we welcomed the Muslim Arabs. They were saving us from being persecuted by Christians.


Should we love our enemies? Yes. Should we pray for them? Yes. But do we really need to applaud them while they terrorize the whole world or stand by their side while they kill our brothers and sisters anywhere they can? I never read that anywhere in the Bible, maybe I missed sunday school that week.

Not that the Pope's comments deserved this sort of reaction in the first place (refer to bishoy's post).

Exactly. It's time we moved on. What we need to do is dialogue in love with our neighbours of different faiths, not blame them for the mistakes of their ancestors. And that applies to both Christians and Muslims. If we're here just ridiculing their faith and culture, don't expect them to respect your faith and culture.

"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets" (Matt. 7:12).

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tonyhabibi

posted on Sep 20, 2006 - 01:31 AM

From Biboboy:

Did "the prophet" (peace be upon him, of course) really teach peace, acceptance, justice and equality as was claimed by every high ranking cleric in the last few days?

Yes he did.

Or did he go around with his band wagon of criminals cutting off the heads of men, women and children who wouldn't convert to his new teachings?

No he didn't.

I think Moses, Joshua, the Judges and the Israelites did worse - there was no option of conversion, either.






BIBOBOY .... I 100 % COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH YOU , AND I AM SHOCKED THAT YOU HAVE SAID WHAT U HAVE SAID . you OUT OF ALL PEOPLE SAID THAT MUHAMMED WAS A MAN WHO PREACHED PEACE EQUALITY JUSTICE ETC AND WAS A GOOD MAN ?

BESHOY .... FRIEND .... ARE YOU INSANE ?

LET US DEBATE .

first let me give u the only only instance where muhammed was on a path of rightousness .

WHEN muhammed was married to khadija ... khadijas uncles were monks ... this was before muhammed bagan his teachings which now form islam . .... before khadija died ... muhammed was on the right path .... muhammed was being taught by monks and all of that ... khadija was the big boss though in the relationship .... anyways ... after khadija died ... all went to hell basically .. mohammed began teaching things exactly the opposite of what the monks taught him ... and after khadija died .. this is when the falsehood of mouhammed took place .


biboboy ... i want to ask u a question ....
lets speak about muhammed himself ... i want u to prove to me that muhammed was a peaceful man full of equality and justice . the quran and the hadiths make muhammed look indeed like a animal .... if we disregard them ... i want u to prove to me that muhammed was just .


biboboy .. muhammed claimed to be the LAST MESSENGER AND PROPHET OF GOD .... A VERY STRONG TITLE TO CLAIM ... AGREE ? i will begin this debate with u , with my WEAKEST ARGUMENT . hopefully it holds merit .
did he marry ... yes .
how many wives biboboy . ? ... u know it was far more then his allowed four .
these are way more wives then our lord permitted even after jesus came . god didnt give adam 5 wives .... he gave adam one wife . lets not argue solomon , lets just stick to muhammed himself . keep in mind that this is 600 years after christ !
i have not yet begun to prove to u that muhammed was an animal ... but i can .
but i want u biboboy to prove to me that muhammed was a just man .... and give me your sources , and i garuntee you ... i can prove u wrong .

what is so extremely shocking biboboy .. is that u STUDIED RELIGON !!!!! ... U ALREADY KNOW THIS STUFF ... HOW CAN U DEFEND MUHAMMED ! ???

BY SOME STRANGE LUCK hopefully there was a typo , and u dont seriously think muhammed was a good guy .

please biboboy , say it aint so .

tony

P.s - do not make the mistake in thinking my main argument is the whole wives thing with mohammed ... the point i was trying to make is that how can a man who claims the be the last messenger from god , and the last prophet with the message from god say that a man is allowed 4 wives , and he himself married more.
the quran is full of contradictions in context .

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