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exGreek

posted on Jan 11, 2007 - 04:47 PM

I was wondering if anyone had any leads on good, heavy books that refute the whole Da Vinci Code/Mary-Magdalene legend. There is a lot of "fluff" out there I know. But I am looking for something very scholarly and point-for-point. Any ideas?

Joined: Oct 28, 2004 | Posts: 1381
Location: Spring Lake, Michigan

copticorthodoxboy

posted on Jan 14, 2007 - 01:05 AM

David

Perhaps:

http://www.amazon.com/Da-Vinci-Hoax-Exp ... F8&s=books

I think I recall Fr. Mitch Pacwa S.J. (one of the few Jesuits I respect LOL) talking about this book (or the details contained within this book) on EWTN. I've not read it, since I haven't read the Da Vinci Code to begin with (nor seen the movie). On top of that, I've fallen into atheism and at this point I see no turning back to God, Christianity (or any organized religion for that matter), and/or a "moral life"; though I would say that my views on morals and ethics remain strongly based in Judeo-Christian teachings. Anyways, I hope all is well!

Ni de hao peng you,

Shawn

Joined: Sep 13, 2004 | Posts: 157
Location: Washington DC

Biboboy

posted on Jan 14, 2007 - 01:50 AM

Agape,

There's this book too: http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Fiction-Vin ... 20-0559246

Bart Ehrman's famed for his academic textbooks on the New Testament from a historical perspective - although I'm not sure what motivates him since he claims not be a Christian anymore. But this is a good book nonetheless, and I also have two audio clips from him on this topic that I could send to you (e.g. on msn) if you want.

On a side note, I've come up with my owh theory that there's no such thing as atheism. Or in other words, no one can prove to be an atheist - very much like no one can prove to be a non-human thining person. But that's too complicated for me to explain here in the 10 mins. I have to post.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

copticorthodoxboy

posted on Jan 14, 2007 - 12:33 PM

Biboboy

I'm open, when you have time and are willing, to discuss your theory (well, not discuss really, since I'm not too bright. I'm open to reading your theory). On another Orthodox website, I know of someone who would probably agree with your argument (in fact, I'm nearly 100% sure that he would, and because of this, he believes strongly in universal salvation. I'll admit, I have a hard time understanding half of what he's talking about, but it seems to be along the lines that to deny God for all eternity is impossible since it goes against human nature).
Perhaps you're right, I'm not an atheist. Maybe I'm a former (Orthodox) Christian extremely bitter towards God and organized religion (well, at least certainly the Abrahamic faiths). I'm probably more of an agnostic, where if there is a God, it doesn't effect me (other than, of course, when he sends his natural disasters).
Concerning Bart Ehrman defending Christianity, actually I would consider myself in the same boat. For a history class last semester, I wrote a 12 page paper on early Egyptian monasticism. I wrote it as objectively as possible, and I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the early monastics and ascetics of the Egyptian desert. Actually, while writing the paper, I almost felt that God loved me and actually wanted a relationship with me. However, that soon ended after I turned the paper in, and looked at history before and after Christ (though, I would say it is the action of the Christians, both East and West, laity and even worse clergy) that has brought me to my current position.

Shawn

Joined: Sep 13, 2004 | Posts: 157
Location: Washington DC

Biboboy

posted on Jan 14, 2007 - 01:36 PM

Agape,

I don't think Bart Ehrman is defending Christianity. He's defending history against the pseudo-history of Dan Brown's (fictional) book.

Shawn, I think the trouble you're having is the problem of idealism - or perfectionism. I've come across this situation many times in my own studies, especially in history. The problem I faced was that I expected, through learning Christian history, a Church that is perfect and triumphant. My, what great monastic history, what great literary works, what great preservers of civilization and salvation! But that's precicely the problem: we're expecting ideals, when in fact the church is in the world, and had to face the problems of the world, and very often people would fall and be dragged into the problems of the world. The lesson to learn from such history is not the perfect church, but the church that falls, learns, and rises again. Our ancestors had an awareness of this: they called the church on earth the struggling church, and the church of heaven the victorious church. To expect the struggling church to be the same as the victorious church on earth is to make a category mistake.

That's just my humble thoughts on what you brought up.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

copticorthodoxboy

posted on Jan 15, 2007 - 03:26 PM

Biboboy

I thank you for your input, but my current situation has little to do with the Orthodox church as an organization (come on, I was Catholic, I've delt with scandal). My current situation, and which we discussed rather briefly, has to do with the bipolar personality I see credited to God through the Old and New Testaments. At the same time, though I'll admit, I am also reluctant to place my spiritual direction under a synod of bishops living primarily in Egypt (though, I would say this also applies to any synod). Though I respect the traditions of the COC (as well as various other Orthodox churches), I'm an American of Western European decent; and sadly at times I feel like a thespian attending ethnic Orthodox churches.

Joined: Sep 13, 2004 | Posts: 157
Location: Washington DC

Biboboy

posted on Jan 15, 2007 - 04:40 PM

From copticorthodoxboy: My current situation, and which we discussed rather briefly, has to do with the bipolar personality I see credited to God through the Old and New Testaments..

This assumes that there is a monolethic view of the personality of God in the OT and a different - or even opposing - monolethic view in the NT.

This makes sense only if one is an evangelical fundamentalist. I disagree with such a naive understaning of the OT. The OT does not present a God with a monolethic personality throughout. It's a collection with more than forty experiences and interpretations of God acting in history - i.e. more than 40 viewpoints of the personality of God. Even within the Torah, you get 5 different perspectives from 5 different authors about the very same stories and subjects.

"Have you understood all this?" They answered, "Yes." And he said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like the master of a household who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old" (Matt. 13:51, 52).

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

exGreek

posted on Jan 16, 2007 - 03:13 PM

Shukran, e7babee! 7aqra'hum. (I hope I said that right). I'm kind of in copticorthodoxboy's boat, ceptin' it's 'alternative' forms of Christianity (i.e. gnosticism, far-left Anglicanism, etc.) that I'm struggling with rather than atheism.

Joined: Oct 28, 2004 | Posts: 1381
Location: Spring Lake, Michigan