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KidofKaras

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 12:45 AM

Do you guys think normal epsaltos deacons should wear the "butrashaell" or garment i should say?

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Andrew

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 12:55 AM

Well to be honest its nothing to do with what er think. If we are going to talk about our old friend 'common practice' then we know that deacons these days wear them from the ordaination of reader (some from psaltos!). I personally think this is a mistake on the bishops fault, he should before (during) the ordaination make it known that this rank means you don't wear one. However if we are to talk about the original 'tuqs' of the church then they are worn from subdeacon upwards, psaltos and reader should not wear them.

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Remnkemi

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 01:05 AM

Bishop David told us that the reasons readers wear badrashaell is because in the prayer of augnostas/readers it says, "Make them worthy to wear the shawl." This is not said in the ordination prayer for singers/psaltos.

It's a good point, but as drew said, the original tuqs says subdeacon should wear. I'm not sure if Bishop David's position is the official Synod's decision too.

George

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anbageorge

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 01:33 AM

I'm fairly certain that Chanters (Epsaltos) don't wear the stole, Readers (Oghnostos) wear it as a cross on their backs. I've seen this in the book for ordinations and that's what Anba David said when he visited our church too.

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Andrew

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 01:46 AM

yes but originally (which was my point) they were worn by subdeacons as a cross on their back and the other way by deacons and Archdeacons. This actually always seemed cofusing to me becuase we see pictures of Stephen the Archdeacon wearing it as original rite was for subdeacons. Even stranger is that I have seen more recent icons which have now changed St Stephen to be wearing it as we know associate with Deacons and Archdeacons.

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PaulS

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 03:17 AM

The way I was taught is:

1) Psaltos - no patrashel
2) Oghnostos - patrashel in shape of cross
3) Subdeacon - patrashel over left shoulder
4) Deacon - patrashel over right shoulder
5) Archdeacon - patrashel over right shoulder

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theophilos

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 05:50 AM

I think this goes way beyond how to wear a patrashel, and into a reform of the function of the deaconate as it stands in the Coptic church.

As a matter of fact, this goes beyond reforming the deaconate.

I think it's time that the Holy Synod (or subcommittees thereof) made decisions and ensured they are followed. It amazes me how many of the Holy Synod's decisions are flatly, deliberately ignored. Examples abound. I don't want to outright slander any particular church, but can do so upon request

My point is this: the Holy Synod is supposed to be the highest governing authority in the Church, not individual bishops, and more importantly, not local priests. A tuqs committee should decide on simple questions like patrashels, and then decisions should be issued via the Holy Synod, and *enforced*!! Why shouldn't they? What use are they if they reside unfulfilled on a piece of paper somewhere?

As for the deaconate, I think we should go back to the old models and delineate the functions along the ranks. This "kosa" that's going on right now disturbs me.

Of course I'll end up not wearing a patrashel, being a lowly psaltos, but that's OK. I would rather have order (a universally enforced order) over chaos.

theophilos

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Mechaiel

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 08:42 AM

The way I was taught was identical to what Paul mentioned above. I abide by it myself, an Oghnostos. Unfortunately, no one else in my church does (except my younger brother - Psaltos). The only people that I've seen stick to this order is the Syrian Orthodox Church in our town, who have a very similar system with the Patrashel.

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stevey820

posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 07:41 PM

Paul is right, thats the way you wear it. This is according to Bishop David, Bishop Antony, and Bishop Youseff. Also, in the big red ordination book, thats how the book has it illustrated to each rank.

Steve

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Mechaiel

posted on Apr 30, 2003 - 06:35 AM

Dear Steve,

I wish to know were one may obtain one of those 'big red ordination books' you describe. How did you get to see one? I don't mean to be rude, I'm genuinely interested in getting one. Whenever I attend a Deacon ordination, no-one seems to know what's going on (including myself).. (may be it's just because our church lacks knowledgeable and experienced deacons)..

I asked someone once how to get one of those books and all they said was, "Only bishops have those books, I doubt you can get one." Maybe you can help me out??

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PaulS

posted on Apr 30, 2003 - 06:54 AM

Mechael,

The ordination book is available from:

St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church
Los Angeles, CA

If you find their contact info in one of those church directories, I am sure you will be able to place an order, since they are the publishers.

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Mechaiel

posted on Apr 30, 2003 - 07:21 AM

Thanks, Paul. I'll try them.

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George

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 12:54 AM

That is interesting Paul because as far as I was aware it was:-

Psaltos:- No badrashil
Ognostos:- Badrashil in the shape of a cross
Sub-deacon:- Badrashil in the shape of a cross
Deacon:- Badrashil right shoulder
Arch Deacon:- Badrashil right shoulder

This is the first time I hear about the left shoulder for sub-deacons. The other thing is I have noticed that St. Stephen the arch-deacon and technically the patron of all us deacons is depicted wearing a badrashil on the shape of a cross in some of the icons.

Is anyone aware first of the meaning and any symbolism to wearing the badrashil in a particular way. I just hope that wearing the Badrashil did not come about as a result of some one finding that the post man delivered his badrashil too long so he thought of an clever way of putting it on. And no fashion statements please

Particularly any meaning to putting it on the left shoulder i would be interested after all it is our vestments...

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KidofKaras

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 01:03 AM

He was wearing it in the shape of the cross? I thought he was wering it butrashell over right shoulder? Also, who taught us to do the butrashell this way? Was it St. Stephen?

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The_Godfather

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 01:52 AM

I was actually checking out the deacon's website and under the Roles of deacons it talks about wearing the batrashil as well... only it's a little different then what some of you guys have been saying... if you want to check it out the link is:

http://www.suscopticdiocese.org/deacons/

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KidofKaras

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 02:50 AM

Yes its different, thanks Gofather, it is a good website. I guess everybody has different teachings.

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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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Peter

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 08:32 PM

From kidofkaras:He was wearing it in the shape of the cross? I thought he was wering it butrashell over right shoulder? Also, who taught us to do the butrashell this way? Was it St. Stephen?

Well, what I learned was the patreshel wore as a cross was called the "Stephanos" style and the on the shoulder style was called the "Malak Mikhael

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Andrew

posted on Jun 03, 2003 - 09:42 PM

malak Mikhail? never heard that one, lol. Don't know how that can be since firstly we do not know for sure the uniform of Archangels and secondly the icons with Archangel Michael wearing a stole is not a constant thing in our church unlike St.Stephen. Also while visitng the HICS Art department a few months ago I noticed that the newer icons of St.Stephen are painted with the stole going over one shoulder (as Deacons do now) and no longer as the original 'oghnostos' (reader) way. Don't know how right or wrong this is

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KidofKaras

posted on Jun 04, 2003 - 12:34 AM

From Peter:From kidofkaras:He was wearing it in the shape of the cross? I thought he was wering it butrashell over right shoulder? Also, who taught us to do the butrashell this way? Was it St. Stephen?

Well, what I learned was the patreshel wore as a cross was called the "Stephanos" style and the on the shoulder style was called the "Malak Mikhael
I will agree on the stephanos, because it means cross, but the one on the shoulder, I have never heard of this, why Archangel?
Wait Andrew HICS does icons? Huh, I didn't know this. When it comes to icons go to St. Demiana they are sooooooooooooo beautiful!

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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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Ramez Mikhail

posted on Jun 04, 2003 - 12:35 AM

`Ctevanoc means cross??

wat about Ctauroc?

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KidofKaras

posted on Jun 04, 2003 - 12:46 AM

ohhhhhhhhhh... yes I mixed myself up, I am very sorry Ramez ye it is Ctauroc...that is what I meant

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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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KidofKaras

posted on Jun 04, 2003 - 07:16 AM

Why don't we wear it in the shape of a Ctauroc or cross? We only use the method of putting it over the shoulder. Or is the Ctauroc-cross- the one we wear, as in the one that crosses across you stomach and 2 scarfs going down? It doesn't seem like much of a cross although it would be hard to do it in that shape!

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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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The_Godfather

posted on Jun 05, 2003 - 05:39 AM

kidofkaras,

i guess the back would look like a cross if you look at it at an angle

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Oct 15, 2003 - 07:20 AM

Anba Boula (of Tanta) ordained myself and many other deacons oghnostos here in Seattle, and he said that 'oghnostos' should have the stole over the left shoulder...which makes me think, "is it different some dioceses?" What's the difference between a Deacon and an Archdeacon?

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EgyTony

posted on Oct 15, 2003 - 07:41 AM

or u can do what 98% of deacons do in america and be "humble" and don't wear one at all not like every church has soooo many ranks its hard to keep track (unless ur in california and theres 2 archdeacons per church) might as well make it uniform everybody goes with the white tunia with the big coptic cross on the front (Isos Pi Ikhristos Epshiri Emevnouti,....Ios Theos is Greek so why put em on tonias?) kinda like HICS how everybody wears black to match, at least thats how i see it, ibrahim ayad goes with the color theme idea, all deacons wear black and a cross so does he...anyway just my thoughts, forgive me if theyre wrong


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