irishpilgrim
posted on Sep 14, 2010 - 01:40 AM
tonyhabibi,
I hope you won’t be offended by this tardy attempt to join this important discussion. I have not been able to review this site for several months, so I am attempting to catch-up.
Pre-nuptual contracts are NOT ridiculous. They are the only means by which the husband, his children and the estate that he has worked for to provide for his family can be protected from a disloyal, dishonest, greedy, marriage vow breaking, typical Coptic feminist wife and her greedier lying divorce lawyer. The contract’s terms have nothing to do with loyalty, trust, love, happiness, companionship, or any other issue of the Coptic Marriage Liturgy, unless one of the parties (always the feminist wife in my experience over 14 years in the Coptic Church) decides that she no longer will live under their marriage vows. Very sadly, neither Pope Shenouda nor any bishop, priest, servant, nor mercenary official Coptic marriage counsellor will firmly, officially, publically state and preach any opposition to this feminist mocking of God’s gender and marriage commandments and the clear terms of the Sacramental Coptic Marriage Liturgy. Life within their marriage vows is of no concern to the marriage contract. It can be locked in the safety deposit box before the marriage and hopefully never be disturbed during the life of husband and wife. When one spouse dies, so does the Pre-Nup contract. Unless the feminist wife is planning to, or wants to preserve the right to, profit from breaking the marriage vows, there is no reasonable basis for refusing to negotiate and sign it.
Tony, you have honestly, maybe innocently, asked the most incisive pre-marital questions for teen and young adult Coptic men. Perhaps you have experienced the misery of young Coptic husbands and their children suffering with a disloyal, disobedient nagging/divorcing Coptic feminist wife. This is faith threatening misery of the highest order. Not only for the remaining life of the mature, faith formed father, but especially for the demonically traumatized development and remaining atrophied spiritual and social life of his pitiable children.
In the apostate feminist/atheistic, psycho-sociologic worshipping/ divorce nurturing milieu of the current (and seemingly future) Coptic Church, no Coptic man who intends to have children and to pursue any phase of the American dream for the benefit of his family and children should marry any Coptic woman, or woman from any other culture, who has been exposed to any degree of feminism, without the protection of an unbreakable pre-marital contract, that has been prepared and executed by a well known specially skilled and certified attorney, to protect his child custody and financial interests. I haven’t checked recently, but there should be many books available that describe the details that are required in a “water tight” premarital contract. Read the books for background, but only depend on a well known specialist attorney to draft and execute the documents. Don’t choose the attorney because he speaks Arabic. Get the most advanced terms because lawyers become wealthy by innovating new ways to break marriage contracts. The deception of security by marrying an educated woman from Egypt is not wise. Apparently the previous generation of educated Coptic feminists have infested all of the urban Coptic churches, the male and female monastaries (all of our current educated feminist/pseudoscience Coptic bishops were [mis]formed in Egyptian male monasteries. This could be an expected sign that the rampant demonic immorality in U.S. EO monasteries has also immigrated to these Egyptian monasteries. It would be ecumenical unity for these demons to migrate from the earlier, post feminism, Catholic seminaries which accomplished their international pediphile/ homosexual cardinals, bishops, priests and servants scandals.), the Egyptian schools and universities, and the general Egyptian (urban and rural) educated Coptic culture. It hasn’t taken long for the intense demonic feminism in some U.S. Coptic parishes to convert some minimally educated rural Egyptian Coptic women to become marriage/husband hating feminists. To an illiterate outsider, like me, it appears that demonic Egyptian feminism is largely a Coptic exclusive. Occassionaly I read or hear interviews or commentaries by Muslim (by birth or converted) women. They have always admiringly defended all of their traditional patriarchal Muslim beliefs and customs. I have never read nor heard any similar defense of traditional Orthodox Christian biblical patriarchal beliefs and customs by any Coptic patriarch, bishop, priest, male or female servant of the Coptic Church. Coptic men who have been divorced by Coptic feminists, intensely study and discuss these bible verses, among themselves, in detail. Their (demonic?) Coptic bishops, priests and mercenary Coptic psycho/sociologist counsellors refuse to discuss or consider God’s patriarchal maxims concerning marriage and family life with these emasculated fathers. The specific terms of the Sacramental Coptic Marriage Liturgy have not provided any protection for the husband, who has been divorced by his Coptic feminist wife, in any case that I am aware of. I don’t know of any Coptic husband caused divorce (such as Pope Shenouda and all Coptic clergy hypothesize), but I can imagine that the same hypocrites would stand on the Coptic Marriage Liturgy to defend their divorced, pitiable rejected sisters.
The first caution is to be extremely observant of every female associates’ feminist interests and tendencies. Their feminist curiosities and interests are supported by your bishop, priests, church servants, church and school classmates, teachers and workmates. I presume that you seek to obey and worship in the way that God has instructed us. God made women to be a helper for man that was similar to him. Gen. 2:18-23. After woman obstinately disobeyed God’s order, God clearly ordered that she was to be ruled by man. Gen. 3:16b. All forms and degrees of feminism defy and/or promote defiance of this and other of God’s patriarchal orders and laws. God’s biblical principles and your cautions and concerns will probably be ridiculed, or just ignored. A feminist is a person who is demonically addicted to, or experimenting with any degree of feminism. Unless you are clearly detached and professionally experienced, avoid her and her close friends like you would avoid a drug junky and his gang members. Don’t be deceived that you can convert or save her from this addiction to feminism. It is not worth the risk of your future family, innocent children and livelihood. Concentrate on techniques for identifying feminists. If they are on the prowl for a sucker husband, they will act very submissive and compliant. A technique that has worked for me is to criticize another “woman car driver.” Feminists have immediately angered and defended the unknown other woman, or generally criticized men drivers. Watch carefully, this is a crucial life and family saving matter. You are communicating with powerful demons. I have never won an argument with demonic thoughts. Don’t be seduced to try these arguments. Flee away.
Except for a rare patriarchal protestant bible believer, or website, or a faithful divorced Coptic husband, you will have difficulty growing in an understanding of God’s patriarchal biblical gender and family codes. Like you, your contemporaries are reluctant to discuss this crucial faith issue which has been uncompromisingly tabooed, without explanation, by the highest officials of the Coptic Church. The major Orthodox Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom, are thoroughly patriarchal in all of their bible commentaries. You can read (with some difficulty) most of their commentaries on the patriarchal gender and family verses and codes at, for instance <http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html>, which discusses St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, 5:22, et seq. Read through all of the gender and family related verses and their commentaries. St. Augustine’s bible commentaries are also patriarchal, but are erratic and require caution, they may sometimes provide a wider (not deeper) insight.
To the contrary, I think that God approves of our righteousness intended desires and actions to provide spiritual and material stability and security for our family and community. In my pre-modern Catholic Church days we learned that frugality is a virtue that can help provide sustenance and comfort to more members of our family, community and neighbors. In light of these present realities I would be grateful and relieved by a marriage prospect who refused to accept my pre-nuptual contract - which should also provide terms that relieve her holy intentioned anxieties - and accept that God does not desire that we entrap ourselves in sacramental union with any potential rebellious, God hating, man hating feminist. The evil intended institutions of our money centric capitalistic/ legalistic nation, state, county and local governments and businesses, in support of a rebellious feminist wife can also be a real threat to our families’ well being that we should learn to strongly protect. Divorce is a huge international industry. It employs millions of highly paid lawyers, psychologists, psychiatrists, physicians, investigators, accountants, police, security firms, etc.; and ruins untold billions of dollars worth of family businesses. It wants your family’s contribution.
It is the pathetic state of our culture and churches that you are required to ponder alternatives to marriage for a secure God designed, lifelong patriarchal companionship. After having too intimately experienced the insanity and moral impoverishment of the demonic U.S. boyfriend/girlfrend, dating, necking, dancing, drinking, partying, petting, toking, hooking up, shacking, partnering, etc. abomination (all huge money making sins), wherein everyone becomes used merchandise to some, usually unknown, degree; it was a bright new world to me to learn the Satan hated Coptic custom of separation until blessed commitment/ marriage. This is the most perfect custom for maturation/ preparation for marriage that I can imagine. The self and others compromising/ destroying U.S. sex games are avoided consensually by the community, which relieves some of the individual burden and discipline. This is an invaluable custom which conflicts with your search for an alternative to marriage. Any alternative makes both you and your partner make yourselves into self-made disgusting, used, discarded inhuman trash and refuse.
I think it would be very ackward and uncomfortable to try to live and worship in any Coptic community with an unmarried female partner. For good reason you would not be welcomed nor be able to receive the sacraments. You would be a scandal and bad example to the rest of the community. You would be in constant discomfort of sin and this would increasingly compromise your general spiritual, emotional, and even physical strength. Your partner would experience similar stresses and the likelihood of “divorce” would probably be higher than if married. This does not alleviate the legal joint property issue of marriage. Over the years, if it lasts any time, you would accumulate his, hers and ours property, which if of any value, would lead to conflict upon separation. Living with male room mates seems a better alternative. Over time, this can also be uncomfortable.
The best option seems to be to wait until God finds you a nonfeminist patriarchal woman (they are very rare) who will welcome the mutual benefits of an adequate pre-nuptual contract. The Holy Bible is full of God’s condemnations/warnings of the pains caused by feminist-like women. Study pre-nuptual contract terms together so you can help others with the same U.S. cultural challenges.
Please also remember that, in a time of apparent difficulty, St. Paul responded to a letter from the Corinthians by stating that it was then better not to marry if you were able to exercise self-control. See, 1 Cor. 7:1-40.You should then check to see how St. Chrysostom thought about these thoughts of St. Paul.
Yes, God made woman to make man happy in the patriarchal way that God designed, created and ordered. Demonic, atheistic feminism defies God’s and man’s patriarchal orders and makes everyone, especially their own children, miserable.
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+Our Father, blessed are your Ways and Statutes. Those who love You know and obey them. Deliver Your orthodox families, children and people from the error, misery and confusion caused by unaware, disinterested, proud, fearful, rebellious or innovative patriarchs, bishops, priests, false teachers, influences and spirits who seek to ignore, change, compromise, and destroy the Holy patriarchal gender and family orders and laws that You have established for Your Orthodox Christian Churches and people from the beginning and forever and ever. For their salvation, admonish them with the wisdom, understanding and knowledge of Malachi 2:1-9, 13-17.+
Joined: Jan 26, 2009 | Posts: 21
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), but can somebody explain to me what a "prenup" is?
