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MHNA

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 10:38 PM

Note from Carol: I renamed this thread to make it more clear as to what the content is about


i found this on the internet:

Another major difference of opinions between Sadat and Pope Shenouda III is the attitude of the latter regarding the normalization of the relations between Egypt and Israel and His Holiness' very prominent Arab nationalist zeal. In fact, there is currently (as of 2006) a papal decree issued by Pope Shenouda III that anathematizes any Copt who dares to visit the Christian holy places in Jerusalem and Israel.[5]

According to that decree, such Copts are automatically banned from receiving Holy Communion in the Coptic Orthodox Church, with no venue or mechanism being offered to them for repentance and lifting of this ban. Pope Shenouda III has repeatedly declared that Christians must only visit Jerusalem hand in hand with their Muslim brothers after the conflict with Israel is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.

Because of this highly unusual decision, many Copts, especially in the diaspora, have accused the Pope of mixing religion matters (ban on receiving Holy Communion if one visits Jerusalem for pilgrimage) with politics (the Arab-Israeli conflict), and consider this papal decree unjustified and unfounded since it has no ecclesiastical, canonical or dogmatic foundation. This ban also is affecting the credibility of the Pontiff's doctrinal decision making, if it is being impaired with political affinities and vis-a-vis his image as the Pope of Alexandria.

can some one please explain this to me
gbu

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PeterA

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 10:56 PM

he did not come to this decision lightly. i think we should accept what he says without questions. history teaches us that it is the preferable thing to do.
he took the council of many bishops and trusted spiritual fathers before he came to this dicision i can assure you.
sometimes things will seem irrational at times. however sometimes and only sometimes, extremes must be practiced for the good of all. in the future our children will thank us, because something horrible was prevented.

but lastly he took the guidance of his true father who is from above. the pope spends 3-4 days every week in the monastery praying and writting. believe me when i tell you this was not easy for him. but i think its the right decision atleast for now.

and i would venture to guess that there are reasons that we do not know as well.

romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations

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AntoniosHenry

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 10:57 PM

I read this before and I've heard of it multiple times, and I was distraught when I first read it. It does seem like we're mixing religion with politics, but I highly respect and admire His Holiness, so I would never dare to disobey (especially because He's our Pope), but it does make me wonder.

I know my reply doesn't offer any insight, but I just wanted to point out that I feel your confusion on this topic!

Joined: Aug 26, 2005 | Posts: 68

minasoliman

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 11:05 PM

While I disagree with PeterA saying that "history teaches us that it is the preferable" not to question, I agree a lot with AntoniosHenry, to obey and yet it does make me wonder.

The only other thing I can think of is that I love the Pope as I would love my own father, understanding that I would obey someone I love even though I know he may do some things that I disagree with, understanding that we are all not perfect human beings, even though we should strive to be.

God bless.

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AntoniosHenry

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 11:09 PM

Exactly Mina, and I'm sure he has great reasons that we're not aware of to make such an important decision.

Still haven't added any helpful insight..

Joined: Aug 26, 2005 | Posts: 68

Biboboy

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 11:15 PM

Christ is risen!

I think the article is mistaken. The seperation of Church and State according to Christianity means that the Church cannot be or become a government. It has nothing to do with Christians making responsible ethical and political decisions - on the contrary, we are supposed to think wisely and find the best means of LIVING as Christians.

If, as Christians, we see that the political conflict in the Middle East is unethical, then we shouldn't support the causes of the conflict. As Christians, also, we believe suspension or excommunication from Communion is a result of serious sins, until there is a true repentance. If someone thinks that it's alright to go to Jerusalem, we're consenting to the State of Israel's policies concerning the Palestinian lands. That is consenting to evil, which means that the person should be seperated from the Communion of the Church, until true repentance is found.

So in short, H.H. Pope Shenouda isn't doing anything "political." He's making a religious opinion on political matters so that we could live as better Christians and are to be worthy of partaking of the Holy Mysteries.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
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minasoliman

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 11:40 PM

Dear Biboboy,

I don't think it's that easy to just dismiss someone who does one action of going to Israel as being the indirect cause of harm on Palestinian people. On the flip side, one can say that supporting the Palestinian cause indirectly supports the suicide bombing of the Palestinians as "freedom fighters." Or that our money being paid to oil and gas indirectly supports terrorists.

Eventually, our own mere existence can cause atrocities, and therefore, perhaps we should just boycott ourselves.

What evil is there in actually going to the Holy Land to visit the burial site of Christ? In that case, we should excommunicate our Armenian, Syrian, and Indian Orthodox brothers and sisters, and perhaps we shouldn't seek communion with the EO's who go to receive the blessings of the Holy Fire.

I can't wait until I hold hands with "my Muslim brother" to fly to Jerusalem just so I can make a simple pilgrimage. Until then, HH has a son's respect to obey him. No more, no less.

God bless.

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1748

kastor999

posted on Apr 09, 2007 - 11:52 PM

everyone here has great things to say but HHP Shenouda did not normalize relations over politics, but rather over a grave injustice on the part of the isreali gov't which till this day refuses to abide by the isreali supreme court's decision to return deir el sultan and hand it over to the coptic church. they have isisted on stalling and the ethiopians continue to posess property which for centuries belonged to us....its a long story.....anyway do not believe every rhetoric op/ed piece you read on the internet,they mostly got it wrong,and besides HH has always guided the church with wisdom by the grace of GOD

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asinner

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 12:33 AM

for some reason i do not agree with the pope on this matter. I do not agree that the people who are anathimized for life with no repentance.. wjo is a human to take away repentace from someone. On what biblical basis does he do this. i have biblical reasons why not.. am i misunderstandig?explanation needed

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Mathitis

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 01:18 AM

I highly doubt the Pope said such a thing. You go visit the Holy Lands, and you can't take communion? That seems illogical and absurd.

The Pope is in no position to tell you that you can't take communion just because you decided to visit such holy places. He can tell you to not take communion ofr other reasons, but not this.

And let's be honest, with the way things are going and people hardening their heads even more, this Arab-Israeli conflict won't end anytime soon. They did have a cease-fire that lasted a few weeks, until Hamas decided to blow themselves again in Israeli terriroty. Good luck seeking peace. It'll never happen.

If the Pope actually said such a thing, I'd have to respectfully disagree with his decision as it is based on nothing whatsoever.

God Bless.

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Biboboy

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 02:54 AM

Christ is risen,

Mathitis, I'm afraid you've been misinformed. H.H. Pope Shenouda did ban going to Jerusalem, and he also recently reminded everyone of the ban (because some people went there in disobedience of the Pope, and he insists on disciplining them). You can hear it for yourself in this link from copticpope.org:

http://www.copticpope.org/downloads/audio/kods_trip.zip

asinner, people are not anathematized for going to Jerusalem - they're excommunicated. There's a difference (anathema is to be cursed, which is worse than excommunication). Anyone can repent and return into communion with the Church, but there must also be a process of discipline to learn from the mistake and not return to it again, and also to partake of Holy Communion worthily. If you actually read some of the old rules Christians observed, you'll find that people were told not take communion for weeks, or months, or even years, depending on their sin. Communion must be taken with extreme respect: St. Paul himself warned the Corinthians that those who do not discern the Lord's Body and partake of communion worthily are going to die in condemnation. Everyone must be sufficiently prepared to receive communion. So yes, the Pope (and any priest) has the authority of not allowing anyone to partake of communion if that person sins.

minasoliman: I am walking on the earth that Christ our Lord walked on, breathing the air that our Lord breathed, and I am being sustained through him - it is in him that we live, and move, and have our being. It's nonesense, in my opinion, for people to just want to go on pilgrimage to Jerusalem to walk in the footsteps of Christ. To me, that's not just a silly idea, but it's also bad theology. People are just so obsessed with pilgrimages to the so-called "holy land," as if the rest of the world, and even the whole cosmos, isn't holy.

I even dare to say this: those who live, and move, and have their being in Christ where-ever they may be are HOLIER than those obsessed with pilgrimages to find holiness.

I don't call it the "Holy Land" - I call it Jerusalem. The earth that my Lord was incarnate in, that is the Holy Land.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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tonyhabibi

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 03:49 AM

biboboy , I dont agree 100 % on a couple of your last statements .....
how can u deny the potential impact that could take place when a christian literally walks on the road jesus walked on , and goes into the tomb jesus was buried in , and or sees the sight where jesus was crucified , IT is a journey that i would be estatic to take . however , it is not a journey in which i place my spiritual dependency on . nor is it a big issue with me .

Do i agree with our pope ? .... Im not in a position to disagree with him , because our pope is favored by our god , and i feel he is making descions , along with the council of his brothers who are all god fearing , and wise spiritual fathers .

Still , in all honesty , .... I feel every christian , has a desire , or a fond curiosity to visit the holy land . the land where the saints / prophets walked , preached etc .... there is a feeling one gets .... perhaps i cant describe this feeling .....but hopefully someday i will .

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petergergis

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 05:13 AM

+
Pikhristos Aftonf...

about the original post that began this discussion... Wikipedia is the least reliable source for any information. Being that your excerpt (i google searched it) was from wikipedia, it is really a waste of time to even discuss it.

your brother,
+peter

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mikeforjesus

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 06:06 AM

If those who went are banned from communion they will lose the help against spiritual wars communion God gives..
If someone is banned from Communion God better give them strength not to fall some other way right? like bible reading

Is the ban really for life and not for just some years? I thought communion was needed for salvation?

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Origenos

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 09:00 AM

At that time Sadat signed the Peace treaty with Israel at Camp David. Regardless of the content of the treaty and Sadat's motives, all the other middle eastern countries and their people were opposing this move.
If the Pope hadn't taken such a move, a big majority of copts would have travelled to Jerusalem to get the blessings of the holy places.
As a consequence, Copts in Egypt and those who reside in the rest of the Arab countries would have been considered as traitors since they would be the only ones who visit Israel. Thus they would be put in danger.
The Pope decision which brought a lot of tensions and troubles with Sadat was very wise and its primary motive was to protect his flock.
The Pope expressed his eagerness to visit these places but he puts his people safety as a priority.
Without a ban, lots of copts would go there.
Also the excommunication - which is not forever - is for disobeying the Patriarch.

Pikhristos Aftonf

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minasoliman

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 02:06 PM

Dear Biboboy,

I agree that it is not a necessary issue for me to go to Jerusalem. I'm not saying that I'm not "putting on Christ," neither am I saying that this is the Haj. But like you might get a blessing from a certain monastery, or even if not a blessing, but rather looking at an archaelogical perspective, to have a historical interest to visit someplace is something I desire as well (I get goosebumps everytime I visit the pyramids for instance, or that "Zahi Hawass" effect on walking where my fathers and mothers have walked). For Holy sights, it's both really, standing on history while receiving that blessing, albeit not necessary.

And since it's not necessary, I don't find myself necessarily disobeying HH either.

God bless.

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1748

minasoliman

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 02:09 PM

From Origenos:At that time Sadat signed the Peace treaty with Israel at Camp David. Regardless of the content of the treaty and Sadat's motives, all the other middle eastern countries and their people were opposing this move.
If the Pope hadn't taken such a move, a big majority of copts would have travelled to Jerusalem to get the blessings of the holy places.
As a consequence, Copts in Egypt and those who reside in the rest of the Arab countries would have been considered as traitors since they would be the only ones who visit Israel. Thus they would be put in danger.
The Pope decision which brought a lot of tensions and troubles with Sadat was very wise and its primary motive was to protect his flock.
The Pope expressed his eagerness to visit these places but he puts his people safety as a priority.
Without a ban, lots of copts would go there.
Also the excommunication - which is not forever - is for disobeying the Patriarch.

Pikhristos Aftonf

So because we risk our lives as traitors, we can get excommunicated and sent to hell?

What's next? You insulted the President, so before you die in jail tomorrow, I excommunicate you because you're putting a lot of Copts in danger.

God bless.

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1748

Mathitis

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 04:05 PM

Bishoy, why did he apply this ban? It's ridiculous!

If I want to go, I can and will go, and it is not the church's nor is it the Pope's business. Wherever I go is none of their business. What I do on the trip may get them involved, but that's a whole other story. He will excommunicate me for goign to see the holy lands? Tell the Pope to excommunicate me for something that is worth an excommunication, not a trip to the holy land.

This issue doesn't even deserve an argument. This ban is too political of a move for our spiritually rich church. I've seen too much of this lately.

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catcouta

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 04:46 PM

Piekhrestos Aftonf!

I don't understand why some of you are making such a big deal out of this. I'm sure that H.H. Pope Shenouda does not make these decisions lightly nor is his purpose to have "control" over his flock. These decisions are not by him alone but agreed upon by the Holy Synod of the Church.

Although we may not understand the cause for this decision, I think some things are better left unspoken off, not to leave us in ignorance but for our protection.

And "3alla ebn el ta3a te7el 3alleh el baraka"!

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Origenos

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 05:11 PM

From minasoliman:
So because we risk our lives as traitors, we can get excommunicated and sent to hell?
What's next? You insulted the President, so before you die in jail tomorrow, I excommunicate you because you're putting a lot of Copts in danger.
God bless.

Well I don't see the link here...
The Pope did that for the safety of his flock..Since this is one of his duties...
Plus this decision does not affect our salvation in any way

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kastor999

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 05:32 PM

dear mathitis, i am so dissapointed and saddened by your attitude the issue is much more complex than an impingement upon your individual freedom ....it involves isreal's downplaying of the holy land that is egypt(christ did live there for 3 years and so did the patriarchs and the prophets) and its systematic treatment of degrading the palestinian christians in isreal including discriminations against coptic community in isreal as well as the destruction of bethlehem both as a city and as a tourist area and source of the local christian economy.it also involves isreal's destruction of christian shrines throughout isreal by creating false pretenses to construct jewish archealogical digs underneath old churches that critically undermines their foundations ....oh and did i mention beatings of coptic monks in the street by isreali soldiers????!!!!!....all this the pope knows too well and is trying to fight...not to mention the tragic issue of deir el sultan....do i understand you correctly that you would disobey the church,defy our pope and support the isreali tourism so that you can satisfy your individual and personal right to do go wherever you want because you can????

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tonyhabibi

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 07:27 PM

Before i say what i have to say .... answer me this Kastor999 ,

. what is the bigger threat to Christianity in Egypt ..... Islam ..... or Judiaism . ? Which group of followers has done more damage to coptic egyptains IN EGYPT ?
and you have the audacity to critisize and blame and condemn israeli Soldiers for that one incident with the monks in august 2005 ? ...you made it seem as if this is a reoccuring thing .
I am not defending israel per se , im just trying to expose a diffrent view .

I kind of understand where mat is comming from . Though i do not fully agree with mat .

The question comes down to this .Is the church responsible for keeping up with world events in this way , were it is to prevent its people from going certain places Because when god created the world he saw that what he created was very good ,how much so should we christians want to see the promised land that our god favored for his arrival into this world. . especially the places where our lord jesus christ , our god has walked on . This wouldent be an issue if the pope forbid copts to suadia arabia ...Saudia arabia is a horrible country , where the goverment tortures and beheads etc etc with no real trial . so why doesnt the pope deny our enterance into suadia arabia .... the KSA is against christian influence in their land , and god forbid a christian enters the city mecca why dont we see a band there . anyways perhaps suadia arabia is an extreme example .. but the holy land is diffrent , no disputing that . This is all about polotics . 100% . How can anyone question that ? , True , the pope most likely is lookinig out for our safety . but the question is now this .... are we being weak by being scared of potential islamic terrorism on copts due to other copts visiting holy land in israel .

Also . The number of Israeli individual / and goverment attacks on copts ( as small as the number truly truly is.) . does not compare to the HAvoc islam has brought upon copts . I'll repeat ..who is the bigger threat to Christianity in Egypt ..... Islam ..... or Judiaism .

Can u dispute that islam is not a threat ? .. in all honesty .. it is my opinion ... the pope made this church rule due to the potential violence muslims will carry out on copts .... and not what jews " might do " to copts .....
Lets be honest .... JEws dont scare the Christians .... if so , the buses of copts who recently visited the holy land would have never gone . Israeli goverment actually make it part of their tourism pride that christian holy sites are up and running in israel and preserved. If you dont beleive me , ask Mathitis what i recently sent him in the mail the other week , items from the holy land based for christians

I feel , in all respect , the popes decsion was a safety measure for copts living in egypt . nothing more nothing less .Safety from islam .


Kastor 999 , in the 21st century Islam has done more to destroy Christianity , then Judaism has . There is no comparision .

Last time i checked , when the muslim riots happened about 2 years ago .... The pope cried . And yet You blame israel ?


Saying all this ...... I am against israeli policy in the middle east . and i am against the occupation of palistinian lands . But israel has already been established and running , IT would be illogical for me to not recognize this nation , as there stupid arab leaders do .

Vanity .... all is vanity .

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kastor999

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 08:13 PM

surely tony you must be kidding...this has nothing to do with anti-jewish sentiment and saudia arabia has no place in this story have you not read my thread....and are you really that naive into thinking that christianity in isreal is not threatened? the arguments you make just DO NOT justify disobedience to our pope which,just in case you missed it,was the only point i was stressing

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kastor999

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 08:15 PM

and by the way i just don't care about the recognition of isreal as a nation

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tonyhabibi

posted on Apr 10, 2007 - 09:24 PM

kastor ,At most , u skimmed what i wrote . IF your going to be a part of this forum , you need to Analyze other posts before supplying your retort about those particular posts.

I really dont feel like repeating myself , but ill summerize in what i said in my inital post . Islam and its followers has done more to hurt christianity in the 20th- 21st century , then judaism and the jews . Therefore , who is the People we should beware from ? I say muslims . The reason i keep stressing that muslims hurt copts more then jews ever have in these modern times , is because kastor , you have repeated over 3 times how christian monks and deir el sultan were abused by israeli officals and soldier . Where as you make it seem like a reoccuring thing , when they are just individual instances . Yes the christian community is threatned in Israel .... but by whom ? ... THe muslims . And liek i said before Israel has made the christian holy sites a part of its tourism attraction , in their ministry of tourism . Christianity is a part of Israel.


what is the given reason for the Ban on Visit. Because of occupied lands ? BEcause of illegal occupation ? If thats a church doctrine to Deny enterance to illegally occupied lands , then maybe we should ban a visit to IRAQ , AFGHANISTAN , SHEEBA FARMS , GOLAN HIEGHTS . NORTH OF CYPRUS , PARTS OF JORDAN DUE TO THE WAR IN 67 .


I am not justifying disobiedence to our pope , i am merely saying what is the reason for this Church ban ? .... IT is political . Thats it . IT is not fear from israelis , it is fear from muslims . MUslims are a threat to copts .

R U denying this ?

HOw can u deny a muslim threat VS a Supposedly Jewish Threat .
There is no jewish threat . SHow me when a bunch of jews STormed into the church to kill christian copts . and burned bibles in the 20th century ?
---

After saying all that , i know my point will be missed once again .

you might not care about the recognition of israel , but apparently the main subject in this topic is the popes ban on pilgrimage to israel . therefore recoginizing israel is the key subject in this discussion , so what are you talking about ?

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