coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

baempi

posted on Apr 16, 2007 - 11:46 PM

Whatever happened to "rabina ba yib3at"

I can't imagine St. Shenouda saying I am not going to allow anyone to duplicate my writings unless they pay me for the papyrus and ink.

Fr. Antonious distributed tapes regularly for free.

The monastery in California sends things regularly for free and the more they send for free, the more God provides them.

I can't imagine Pope Shenouda saying you can't hear my sermon unless you pay a ticket at the door to support the electricity for the cathedrals microphone and lights.

After all, are hymns a business or praise?

Money is the reason many hymns were lost. Cantors afraid to lose their jobs would not teach other people hymns in Egypt because if more people knew the hymns they may not need them. This ultimately led to a loss of vast quantities of hymns.

Remember, God Sends (rabina ba yib3at) to those who love him and whole heartedly do his work.

Joined: Mar 05, 2004 | Posts: 11

minaS

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 12:05 AM

Baempi,

Please read my previous posts and take note that this discussion is not about money or how cantors make their living; it is about respect and purity of service.

You do bring up a good phrase though,"Rabenna bieb'at." However, you use it in the wrong context. God will not send disrespect and disobedience, but rather will allow the hymns to be downloadable when circumstances allow.

All we can do is pray for the day when we can offer our streaming hymns as downloads. Until that day, we must, and it is necessary and right to do so, respect what is asked of us.

GBU,
MinaS

P.S. Let's try to stay on topic here. We are discussing the issue of downloadable hymns, not how much cantors get paid.

Joined: Jun 26, 2003 | Posts: 196

mzaki

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 12:27 AM

From mzaki:P=,=c aftwnf

I have shared this view here before:

The church ought to serve the members of the body freely, without prejudice or preference, and without expecting compensation. The members ought to support the church freely, out of commitment and, more importantly, love.

In my humble opinion, this Apostolic model of how the church should "do business" with her congregants is not overly-idealistic, and is still universally applicable. This supersedes any concept of "copyright" that may have been later introduced.

qen oume;myi aftwnf

P=,=c aftwnf

Yes, I am replying to my own post. Just some further explanation as to precisely what I meant.

Service:
Individuals offer service to the church freely, each according to his/her talent and ability --> Church disseminates the service freely, not in proportion to the degree in which individuals can afford the service --> Those who benefit from the services the church offers give to the church freely, not in proportion to the degree in which they were served --> The church supports the services (this includes covering costs and paying salaries) so that the individuals may continue offering service to the church. The cycle continues.

Business:
Individuals with marketable talent/ability/product offer it at a fee --> This item is offered for sale --> Those who want the service or product give money directly to the provider of this service/product.


As I see it, there are inherent differences between these two:

1. When offering service, the church plays a central role. The service is offered to the church. The church decides the manner in which the service is distributed. The church supports those who offer the service.

In the business model, the church has no part in the process, even if the product is "church-related."


2. Service is not sold, but distributed freely. As I am familiar with it the church assigns value to items only as "suggested donations." This is not an arbitrary difference from an absolute price-tag: the service is offered to all regardless of their ability to give back to the church. Additionally, those who are fortunate are free to donate more, those who less fortunate, less. The common denominator though, is that giving to the church is according to ability, and not according to what the church has given (ie, you are not paying for a service, you are donating to the church).

In business, monetary value is assigned to each product/service, and payment is required to obtain that product/service.


3. The servant is supported by the church.

The businessman strives to be self-sufficient, and even profit, and accepts money directly.


Business is business and service is service. I'm afraid the line separating the two is becoming increasingly less distinct (as I see it), and I'm even more afraid that Coptic hymns are slowly turning into a business.

Business, even business involving church-related product, is not wrong, but it is not service.

If we are offering services to the church, let us offer them freely. If we are benefiting from services (and even if we are not), let us support our churches freely and out of the abundance that we have been given.


I'm sorry to steer the discussion even further off its original path.

qen oume;myi aftwnf

_________________
mina.

Joined: Apr 09, 2003 | Posts: 210
Location: Troy, MI

abahoor

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 12:29 AM

From minaS:Baempi,

Please read my previous posts and take note that this discussion is not about money or how cantors make their living; it is about respect and purity of service.

ya habibi service is called service because it's free
and if it's about respect, those who kept these hymn from the public to start with are the ones who disrespected the hymns, there value, and their use in our church.

You do bring up a good phrase though,"Rabenna bieb'at." However, you use it in the wrong context. God will not send disrespect and disobedience, but rather will allow the hymns to be downloadable when circumstances allow.

he was talkign about Rabena sand money not respect. what does that have to do with disrespect and disobedience.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

minaS

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 12:35 AM

abahoor,

Let's get something straight: The other admins of this website and I are opposed to charging money for hymns. The hymns are streaming. They ARE free and that is the point everyone is missing here.

Once again, we can't offer them for download because that is what those who provide the recordings request. If they have sinned, let God judge them, not us.

As for this website... We have to respect the wishes of those who help in the service.

Be thankful that these recordings are freely available.

GBU,
MinaS

P.S. If you want to disucss cantors and organizations charging money for service, then please begin another thread as this thread is about downloadable hymns. If you do not know how, feel free to PM me.

Joined: Jun 26, 2003 | Posts: 196

abahoor

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 12:48 AM

From minaS:abahoor,

Let's get something straight: The other admins of this website and I are opposed to charging money for hymns. The hymns are streaming. They ARE free and that is the point everyone is missing here.

Once again, we can't offer them for download because that is what those who provide the recordings request. If they have sinned, let God judge them, not us.

As for this website... We have to respect the wishes of those who help in the service.

Be thankful that these recordings are freely available.

GBU,
MinaS

P.S. If you want to disucss cantors and organizations charging money for service, then please begin another thread as this thread is about downloadable hymns. If you do not know how, feel free to PM me.
LOL, i think we made it clear from previous posts that we're not talking about this websites or any websites. but we now are talking about general copyright for downloading. as for the part about money, that was brought up since it does have to do with stricting downloading.

one more thing, having files for playing only doesn't count as free file as you said. free file means you can download. anything that doesn't mean we have to go on your site on play from.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

baempi

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 05:18 AM

...............

Joined: Mar 05, 2004 | Posts: 11

PaulS

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 03:52 PM

Hello,

You have all made valid and well constructed points. We understand.

The major difference between us is that, while other sites will make the decisions for the cantors, essentially telling them they are not entitled to the support they requested, we here at this web site do no such thing.

We go by whatever they tell us, and in doing this, we believe we act in a Christian way. After all, what benefit is any service if you offend people along the way?

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Pharaoh

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 04:28 PM

Baempi said:

Whatever happened to "rabina ba yib3at"

I can't imagine St. Shenouda saying I am not going to allow anyone to duplicate my writings unless they pay me for the papyrus and ink.

Fr. Antonious distributed tapes regularly for free.

The monastery in California sends things regularly for free and the more they send for free, the more God provides them.

I can't imagine Pope Shenouda saying you can't hear my sermon unless you pay a ticket at the door to support the electricity for the cathedrals microphone and lights.

After all, are hymns a business or praise?

Money is the reason many hymns were lost. Cantors afraid to lose their jobs would not teach other people hymns in Egypt because if more people knew the hymns they may not need them. This ultimately led to a loss of vast quantities of hymns.

Remember, God Sends (rabina ba yib3at) to those who love him and whole heartedly do his work.

I understand this topic may warrant a new thread but I thought I would address it here anyway. Baempi, would you go to work for free? Would you take a pay cut of 50%, 25%, for no reason? In Egypt, cantors are paid for their services. It is their career and their livelihoods. This is their full time job. Outside of Egypt the mu'allim of the church is usually an individual with a full time job who happens to serve as well. This is totally different than what you will see in Egypt. Most cantors in Egypt are trained in institutes and hired by churches. It is perfectly acceptable for them to earn money from their vocation by charging for their recordings, teachings, or services at weddings. How else would they support their families and earn a living if they offered all of their services for free? If we forced them to do this we would lose many wonderful cantors who would be forced to work outside of the church. Imagine if the great cantors we all know did not devote their lives to hymns. Think of Mlms. Mikhail, Farag, Fahim, Sadek having to abandon their life work of learning and teaching hymns in order to earn a living elsewhere. We'd all pay the price.

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

JGirgis137

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 07:35 PM

The admins continue to use the argument that the "providers" of the hymns ask that they not be distributed. This is absolutely selfish on the part of said "providers". The only Provider of the hymns is Our Lord Jesus Christ. This defense creates an even bigger problem than the original issue.

The admin of this site stated….

“… I will make sure this site is respectful and pure in its service...”

You have stated that it is disrespectful to offer the hymns you have received from “providers” for download. Unfortunately, by doing this you are violating the second part of the quoted sentence. Those who will not allow you to share the gifts, which they have received from Christ, are not giving in a manner that is “pure”. It is elitist and selfish.

Telling people who love hymns that they only have limited access to them is absurd. If it is about financially supporting those who recorded and produced the hymns so be it. I will gladly pay whatever amount they ask. But unfortunately for me I cannot go to Egypt and get the recordings myself. So does that mean that I don't deserve an opportunity to benefit from the same recordings that others benefit from??? Or should I rely on those who do provide this service to me whether it is free or not???

If that is not the case please let me know so I can book a ticket to Egypt!!!

If I were an admin I would tell the “providers” either you freely give or you don’t… no strings attached.

John G.

Joined: Apr 06, 2003 | Posts: 7

Pharaoh

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 07:53 PM

JGirgis137,

You want the providers of these recordings to "freely give"? Do you understand that they make a living off of their recordings and their appointments as cantors in their respective churches? You want them to freely give at the expense of their familes' well being so we can have mp3s of their recordings?

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

abahoor

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 09:20 PM

From Pharaoh:JGirgis137,

You want the providers of these recordings to "freely give"? Do you understand that they make a living off of their recordings and their appointments as cantors in their respective churches? You want them to freely give at the expense of their familes' well being so we can have mp3s of their recordings?

God Bless

i think we already gone over this 'money' thing. we all know that they are already living and get money from their churchs. also they have tapes and cds out to which they do get money of. not everyone would download as you think but they would rather buy the cd or the tape.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

PaulS

posted on Apr 17, 2007 - 11:32 PM

JGirgis137,

Your point is essentially that cantors and churches in Egypt should forego all of the proceeds of their services (including the cost of the tapes, the studio rental, the printing of labels, and the distribution costs) simply because you love hymns and Jesus Christ is the true provider of all good things.

Do you think that is a strong argument?

We have to remember: it's not like these churches are looking to make profits. They are only trying to support their services to the poor, to the orphans, to the congregation, etc., etc.

If you all knew how difficult it was in Egypt for a normal young man and woman to get married, for example, you would willingly donate much more of your earnings to churches in Egypt rather than begrudge them these small proceeds and argue that you should get the fruits of their labor for free. I think this is quite shameful, actually.

This site will remain the way it is until the cantors and churches give me permission to freely distribute their works. If you can't live with that, go to Egypt and plead your case with them directly. I will not disrespect them simply because I don't think they deserve these proceeds.

We have been quite fair in adding as much content as possible into our free section, such as the live service archives from our church, which have many wonderful hymns for everyone to learn and download freely.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

geomekhaiel

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 12:19 AM

Has anyone ever tried to contact Ibrahim Ayad about this subject? How about a phone call? Let's try not to discuss the problem but let's take direct action to solve it.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1711
Location: Saint George COC

minaS

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 01:11 AM

George,

How do you think we know what the wishes of cantors are? Do you really think we are guessing?

These are hypothetical questions, by the way, because the answers are obvious.

GBU,
MinaS

Joined: Jun 26, 2003 | Posts: 196

abahoor

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 01:25 AM

From geomekhaiel:Has anyone ever tried to contact Ibrahim Ayad about this subject? How about a phone call? Let's try not to discuss the problem but let's take direct action to solve it.

George Mekhaiel

well we all know the answer. he does mind to putting his stuff for downloading.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

geomekhaiel

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 03:38 AM

Hmm...

That was not a clear fact to me. I find that the fact that cantors have issues with putting up their hymns for download a big problem. I've obviously stated this in the past....and many others have too.

Problems with that:

1. They are doing a service; it should be free. Plus, the church provides for their living well enough.

Example:

I kind of makes me think about a priest who sells the sacraments. He would sell communion, confession, unction to the sick, baptism, matrimony, chistmation. These things are not his to sell, they have been passed down to him through his position. He should do them as a free service; and the church provides for his living.... BUT, the church provides for his living not because of their service to them but because of their love to God who gave them a priest who dedicates his life to service for them.

Likewise, cantors are not the inventors/writers of the hymns. Therefore, they should not have any property over them. They should not have the ability to copywrite hymns they are not the ones who composed them.

I am also very church that if the person who composed the hymns would not want anyone to sell their service to God....that is just, well,...wrong!

2. If they (cantors) really care about spreading hymnology then they shouldn't mind if their recordings, of the hymns they didn't compose, are being put online for downloading. If anything they should be happy about it and encourage it.

Example:

This kind of reminds me of the works of the fathers of the church who labor greatly at writing many awesome books. Most of these books are online for download. They do not mind that (most of them...there probably some who do).

There is a big difference, which I already addressed, about a writer of a book and a cantor. The writer of the book labored to compose a book from his own ability. A cantor doesn't have to labor like that. All a cantor has to do is just learn the hymn and record to pass it down. It is his job and the church provides for his living not because of what he does but because of the consecration of his life to God and because he has a need.

3. By selling hymns what is ultimately being done is that the profit goes to the cantor who recorded the hymn (but, surprisingly, didn't write). This is plainly wrong. Any level headed person who has an ounce of common sense can see that.

Example:

ummmm... That is sort of like Abouna Tadros Malaty writing an amazing book on...umm.. church history! And I have the job of a scribe, who has to copy the book. It takes me a couple of days...maybe a week to type up the book that abouna tadros wrote with his sweat and blood.

I end up putting my name on the book and selling the book and the money goes to me. I don't want people to download my book but I prefer that they buy my book.

Does that seem fair? (Noooo! )

4. It is unpractical that cantors believe that hymns will be passed down on CD or tape 10, 20 or 30 years from now. It just will not happen. Everything will become digital and passed down through the internet.

...no need for an example....

5. (the spiritual point). Christ doesn't care about hymnology, but he cares about the important things in spiritual life. Why do we fight about this issue so much? I personally see problems coming from not offering all hymns for download but let's not make problems from problems. Then we have allowed to sins to happen...not just one.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1711
Location: Saint George COC

shaq

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 04:14 AM

can someone explain why the HICS, and the other moalemeen audios are not available for download? im not asking for it to be for download, i just want to know why. I understand why Mlm Ibrahims isnt because he did ask for it not to be. Thanks

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 04:24 AM

George,

Not sure if u understand what I am about to say already, so forgive me If i am preaching to the choir.

Your points make sense, to me at least. Maybe not so much with the case of choirs like the HCOC where money is needed to simply sustain the service (the costs of recording...etc). I am not sure if Cantors in Egypt like Mlms. Farag, Faheem...etc actually spent money in order to record, or whether they used a studio or simply a tape recorder, but we do know for sure that choirs like HCOC and the like do spend money and that spending requires some sort of compensation for the service to continue.

At any rate, here is my point: Regardless of whether it is right or wrong for a cantor or any deacon to charge money for their recordings, people like Paul and anyone who similarly manages a hymns website can do nothing but obey their wishes. As Christians we are not asked to violently force others to abide by what we deem to be correct and right in the sight of God. Maybe Paul himself thinks its unfair to not offer hymns for free, but even if that were true, Paul or any other webmaster is still helpless and as a Christian brother to all these cantors should not do anything but obey in humility.

Thats basically the point that Paul, MinaS and the others are making. We all know that cantors do not like to offer their hymns for free, and therefore the only Christian way for US to act is to obey and respect their wishes.

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1782

Kalax

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:55 AM

†
what are we doing? If i have a blessing in my life, what am i doing with it?

Hymns are a blessing. Hymns are a means to an end(Kingdom of God and unity with Him)

Remember and never loose this spirit. While hymns may be our aim...the objective is to one day meet God and dine in His heavenly banquet-to be accepted by Him.

What the Cantors in Egypt have recorded, the Church (us) receives as a service. Note, we should not attempt to discover the motives of these cantors-many things are possible...

We speak of profit! Well, what profit is it to me when i discuss matters belonging to someone else and his accountability before God?

A little (but important) side step:

1)In most of the sources, it's not a complete Copyright senario in the legal sense...it's a matter of respect for the labourer.

2)Another important reminder...In the past and even now, our Church and/or previous cantors never used or applied copyright ideas. I noticed some of the points are mixed up by simply, forgetting these minor details.


Let's just "Sing it, Live it and Love it", as the HCOC gladly affirms, again and again.

It is b/c of God's love in Christ that we dedicate our lives to praising Him with purity of heart. Just be thankful and always remember that it's not about us or others but all of God and for God..so, we may live in God.

This should be and is the essence of hymnology...if truly experenced and understood.

forgiveness.

_________________
Alex(Kalax)
1 Thess.5:17

"For this is God's command, that you owe nothing to anyone but the pledge of love, which God has commanded by Christ".(Rom. 13:8)

HCOC Member


HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT

Joined: Jul 12, 2003 | Posts: 213
Location: Mississauga,On, Canada

shaq

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 01:37 PM

so everything on the coptichymns website was given with the request to not be put for download? or was this the decision reached by the admins of the site?

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

Fady.Kozman

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 02:02 PM

NOT to trivialise anyone else's opinion,

just sharing a thoughtful message, what are the purpose of hymns in our church?

Answer: simply to get us closer to God, only a means to a way, in its own way, its very effective if used wisely..

Look my brothers and sisters how this thread has progressed! we turned against each other, we started talking about money which with God is never an issue! He is the maker of all things, He sustains all.. Dont call it naievety, its blind faith in God .

Look at how this has progressed, we fight each other for merely trying to force our opinion and prove each other wrong, hehe, while really, not thinking far enough...
PaulS, wisely made clear his position, i respect that beyond mere words description,so is arguing with each other over trivial issue (streaming vs downloading) will solve anything? you tell me , lol, none of us is the webmaster lol, be thankful that the hymns are available


sorry if i offended anyone, plz forgive me..

now, can we utilize those hymns to get us to heaven not to get us away from it?

_________________
Higher than the heavens above are you, And you are much purer
Than the radiance of the sun; You who have redeemed us From the curse which is upon us; The Lady of all people, In hymns, do we honor you.

From the great multitude of my sins, Ill am I in body, Ill am I also in my soul; I am fleeing to you, The one who is all‑blessed, The hope of all the hopeless, Please come bring help to me.

Joined: Jun 26, 2004 | Posts: 75
Location: Sydney Australia

Pharaoh

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 02:14 PM

Geomikhail said:

I kind of makes me think about a priest who sells the sacraments. He would sell communion, confession, unction to the sick, baptism, matrimony, chistmation. These things are not his to sell, they have been passed down to him through his position.

In Egypt priests are paid for officiating weddings and for other services. They are typically paid by the groom for officiating the wedding. This idea seems foreign to many outside of Egypt but it is a fact inside Egypt.

Cantors have families and so do the fathers the priests. If you think the church salary alone is enough to support a family in Egypt you are sorely mistaken. As Paul mentioned the costs for a couple to get married in Egypt are often insurmountable for many. Consider the cost of an apartment in Cairo alone. A very modest one will probably cost at least 100,000 LE to purchase or 500 LE - 2000 LE/month to rent. Also, keep in mind mortgage mechanisms in Egypt are totally different than they are in the US and elsewhere with the balance usually due within a much shorter period of time (1-5 years). I won't state the salary of Cairo's priests but it is public information that has been printed in a previous edition of El-Keraza. Compare that to the figures I presented above for the cost of shelter alone.

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

abahoor

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 03:19 PM

From Pharaoh:Geomikhail said:

I kind of makes me think about a priest who sells the sacraments. He would sell communion, confession, unction to the sick, baptism, matrimony, chistmation. These things are not his to sell, they have been passed down to him through his position.

In Egypt priests are paid for officiating weddings and for other services. They are typically paid by the groom for officiating the wedding. This idea seems foreign to many outside of Egypt but it is a fact inside Egypt.

Cantors have families and so do the fathers the priests. If you think the church salary alone is enough to support a family in Egypt you are sorely mistaken. As Paul mentioned the costs for a couple to get married in Egypt are often insurmountable for many. Consider the cost of an apartment in Cairo alone. A very modest one will probably cost at least 100,000 LE to purchase or 500 LE - 2000 LE/month to rent. Also, keep in mind mortgage mechanisms in Egypt are totally different than they are in the US and elsewhere with the balance usually due within a much shorter period of time (1-5 years). I won't state the salary of Cairo's priests but it is public information that has been printed in a previous edition of El-Keraza. Compare that to the figures I presented above for the cost of shelter alone.


and you're point..........
Yes, they take money but as a gift to support themselves. also this doesn't happend here in the US why because almost all priests of our church here are paid enough to live a good life. if in egypt a priest is wealthy enough, no one would give him money as everyone thinks.
the point in the money matter (which i might of started) is that they get all these money already as help from others, if that so, why should they control the hymns that are not theirs. if they do it to get more money than what they need, than it is done in vain...correct me if i am wrong.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

PaulS

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:20 PM

Hello,

First, I think MinaS and Ramez have stated our position quite clearly. We do not make any judgment concerning the propriety of charging for hymns or preventing their download. We only follow the wishes of the people we've dealt with in the past, and in doing thus, we try to act in a Christian way.

Second, to Shaq, I have been in contact with Dr. Micheal Badie, the head of the HICS. He does not want the recordings available for free download. He has stated that clearly to me in a person-to-person conversation.

I have spoken to Mu'allim Ibrahim Ayaad personally; he gave me the same response.

Concerning the Mu'allim Farag recordings, I was the one who carried the first CDs of Cantor Farag's collection from his church in Fagalla to the United States. I sold them through this web site back in 2001 or 2002. Although he has passed away, the servants who made the CDs at his church told me they do not want the CDs to be available for free download on the site. The church is the entity that actually made and produced the CD, so I respect its wishes.

With respect to Mu'allim Faheem's recordings, I have not spoken to anyone in his family. However, I did speak to the operators of the bookstore in the Old Cathedral. They were very clear in their wishes that we continue to sell his comprehensive collection, because this is one of their major areas of support. So, again, I respect the church that produced the tapes after the mu'allim passed away.

Moving to Mu'allim Habib Hanna El Mirahimi, this collection was given to me by a friend who received them from a friend who actually recorded all of the works. This friend gave them to me on the condition that they would not be made available for download. These are the orders of the friend who actually recorded them, so I respect those wishes.

With regard to Mu'allim Tewfik's recordings, I have spoken directly to the bookstore at El Muharraq Monastery. They were very clear that his works should be available through the bookstore and the Mahhad in Assiut. I respect these wishes.

Finally, concerning Mu'allim Mikhail's recordings, I spoke directly to the Library of Congress and Madam Laurence Moftah, who authorized me to post them for download. I respected their wishes, as well.

So, as you can see, we have tried to act with the utmost care and respect in this Christian service.

Regrettably, other sites don't bother to ask, or worse yet, they do ask, but do not care about the response from the mu'allim or church. I cannot see the wisdom in this. In the end, having a great site is not worth more than basic Christian respect and love. We at this web site try to maintain that in all circumstances.

God bless you,
Paul

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA