coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

JGirgis137

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:28 PM

Again..... Everyone is missing my point.When I refered to the "providers" I was NOT refering to the cantors themselves. It had been mentioned by Paul S that he receives recordings from people's collections. My point is that these "providers" of recordings by other cantors should NOT add the condition that they are providing the recordings for streaming only.

Again.... If you are DONATING a copy of a recording that you have you should do so freely. Adding conditions such as Paul S has repeatedly mentioned is selfish. You are advocating a taunting of sorts.

Again.... I think it is absolutely justifiable that cantors receive compensation for doing their job. If a cantor, the HCIS, or the HCOC spend the time and money to record a tape or CD then they should receive compensation.

Again.... I believe that it would be possible to provide a SERVICE to those who seek Coptic Hymns electronically and still provide compensation to the sources of the hymns. I am sure Muaalim Ibrahim would be overjoyed if the revenue of his recordings could be more substantial. Maybe then he wouldn't have to charge so much for his services at weddings as Paul S. has stated.

Again.... If you have taken offense to what I have said please belive that is not my intent. I apologize if I have done so.

A piece of advise.... If you are an admin of a site do not descibe the opinions of your visitors as "shameful".



John G.

Joined: Apr 06, 2003 | Posts: 7

abahoor

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:41 PM

so i guess there is no point of talking about this issue anymore since the muallems, 'the owners of the hymns' are that way. well i really don't blame the site or anyone else......except those who use hymns as there own...
am done replying to this post...........

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 331

Pharaoh

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:46 PM

abahoor stated:

and you're point..........
Yes, they take money but as a gift to support themselves. also this doesn't happend here in the US why because almost all priests of our church here are paid enough to live a good life. if in egypt a priest is wealthy enough, no one would give him money as everyone thinks.
the point in the money matter (which i might of started) is that they get all these money already as help from others, if that so, why should they control the hymns that are not theirs. if they do it to get more money than what they need, than it is done in vain...correct me if i am wrong.

It appears you are simply restating most of what I said.:

Yes, they take money but as a gift to support themselves.

I already made it clear in my previous posting that the compensation received is in order for priests to support themselves and their families.

also this doesn't happend here in the US

I believe I have stated this more than once in more than one post already.

if in egypt a priest is wealthy enough, no one would give him money as everyone thinks.

Precisely. I am not sure if you are attempting to refute what I have written or you are agreeing with what I wrote.

and you're point..........

I believe my point was already made very clearly. In case I failed to state it clearly I will do so now. In Egypt priests and cantors are pid for their services. It is a lifetime service and a vocation. It would be unreasonable to expect them to "donate" their services without compensation. Cantors earn money from the proceeds of their recordings in addition to the salary they are paid from their respective churches and it is unfair for us to advocate free distribution of their works against their wishes.


the point in the money matter (which i might of started) is that they get all these money already as help from others, if that so, why should they control the hymns that are not theirs.

Indeed the cantors did not compose the hymns but they learned them, performed them, and recorded them. In the case of HICS it is well known that those recordings took a great deal of time to record with many iterations in order to be absolutely sure that the hymn is correct.

This is no different than an artist charging for recordings of Western Christmas carols for instance. They did not compose these carols nor do they "own" the carols themselves but they have every right to benefit from the fruit of their work and that is performing and recording those carols.

Folks, it is clear from Paul's latest posting that he has done considerable due diligence and is respecting the wishes of each of the cantors/institutes. We should be thankful that these wonderful recordings are available in streaming format.

God Bless
[/i]

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

Pharaoh

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 05:46 PM

abahoor stated:

and you're point..........
Yes, they take money but as a gift to support themselves. also this doesn't happend here in the US why because almost all priests of our church here are paid enough to live a good life. if in egypt a priest is wealthy enough, no one would give him money as everyone thinks.
the point in the money matter (which i might of started) is that they get all these money already as help from others, if that so, why should they control the hymns that are not theirs. if they do it to get more money than what they need, than it is done in vain...correct me if i am wrong.

It appears you are simply restating most of what I said.:

Yes, they take money but as a gift to support themselves.

I already made it clear in my previous posting that the compensation received is in order for priests to support themselves and their families.

also this doesn't happend here in the US

I believe I have stated this more than once in more than one post already.

if in egypt a priest is wealthy enough, no one would give him money as everyone thinks.

Precisely. I am not sure if you are attempting to refute what I have written or you are agreeing with what I wrote.

and you're point..........

I believe my point was already made very clearly. In case I failed to state it clearly I will do so now. In Egypt priests and cantors are pid for their services. It is a lifetime service and a vocation. It would be unreasonable to expect them to "donate" their services without compensation. Cantors earn money from the proceeds of their recordings in addition to the salary they are paid from their respective churches and it is unfair for us to advocate free distribution of their works against their wishes.


the point in the money matter (which i might of started) is that they get all these money already as help from others, if that so, why should they control the hymns that are not theirs.

Indeed the cantors did not compose the hymns but they learned them, performed them, and recorded them. In the case of HICS it is well known that those recordings took a great deal of time to record with many iterations in order to be absolutely sure that the hymn is correct.

This is no different than an artist charging for recordings of Western Christmas carols for instance. They did not compose these carols nor do they "own" the carols themselves but they have every right to benefit from the fruit of their work and that is performing and recording those carols.

Folks, it is clear from Paul's latest posting that he has done considerable due diligence and is respecting the wishes of each of the cantors/institutes. We should be thankful that these wonderful recordings are available in streaming format.

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

Biboboy

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 06:05 PM

Christ is risen,

I'm quite sorrowful with some of the posts here. There have been many accusations of selfishness and pride towards the servants of the church, and I believe that was very inappropriate. As Christians, we know that we should not judge others, especially when we do not and cannot know anything about their intentions, their lives, or the means by which they accomplish their service to the church. So I hope we refrain from calling the cantors and the churches that put such conditions on the hymns material on this network as selfish and proud. The fact is, they are not selfish. They have provided us with a great amount of hymns that were inaccessible 10 years ago. The work of providing hymns on the internet was unimaginable. Once upon a time, the only access was through cassette tapes and CDs. Let us be thankful that today we can access them on the internet anywhere in the world.

It seems to me that the selfishness is coming from the demands in this thread. Instead of thanking God for providing the service and the servants and allowing many people over the world to listen and learn the hymns of the church, I see further demands. Hymns are not consumer products that you could demand - they're not like shampoo, mangos, or a computer. You can go to the grocery store and demand them to get mangos in winter, but you cannot demand hymns in the same way. There's a big difference between growing mangos in winter and church hymns. We cannot put a burdensome demand on the servants and the churches because we are one church, and we work together in love with all the servants. So I ask that you think about your demands and carefully reflect whether such demands are selfish on your part, before judging others.

Also, I've read that the only reason why some people want to download the hymns is because they could learn them in their cars, etc. I'm sorry, but that is disrespectful not just to the servants' wishes who provided the hymns, but is disrespectful to the hymns themselves. Learning hymns should be given their time and their respect - it can't be "on the go." Just like you should take some time to read the Bible at home or in church, you should also respect the hymns of the church and learn them either in church or at home.

On a brigher note, as Albair mentioned concerning the HCOC productions: we would LOVE to provide the hymns free, but we also have to be realistic. We live in the world, and everything in the world costs money. But notice also that it doesn't mean that we have to limit every service to something that costs money: for instance, the HCOC Classes are available for both downloading and streaming. No one's paying for it, so it's provided for free, and it's an example of how we love to share what we learn in our classes with everyone else.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

mzaki

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 09:16 PM

Christ is risen!

I'd like everyone to take a close look at this situation calmly and objectively...

Not one person here, regardless of his stance regarding the selling of church services (I've made my opinion in that regard quite clear), wants to 1) be overtly disrespectful to the wishes of others, or 2) "take money from the pocket of others."

What people do want is a reasonable way to have more "portable" access to hymns (ie, to not have to be tied to a computer with an internet connection in order to listen to some of these recordings). Living in America, there is not a reasonable way to get these recordings from their original sources. We have, all of us, at some point resorted to some other means, whether it be downloading hymns from the internet, copying others' recordings, or buying these recordings from someone who was "unauthorized to sell them" (ie, not on Paul's list in his previous post). (BTW, I think it goes without saying that I do not consider travel to Egypt a reasonable means to this end).

I think it should be excessively clear that nobody here wants the hymns to be free out of selfishness, as it has been suggested.

With this understanding, can we move the discussion forward in the direction of a solution? John, in his first post, proposed a great solution where hymns would be available for download at a fee; this money being sent to those who sell these hymns in Egypt. For whatever reason, that idea was met with resistance, so here's another idea: how about someone with connections in Egypt start importing these recordings from the bookstores in Egypt and start a website where the actual cassettes can be sold in America?

Making these hymns more widely available while at the same time complying with the wishes of those who distribute them is far from impossible. Let's each try to come to an understanding of the position of the other, find an amenable compromise, and work from there.

Truly, He is risen!

Joined: Apr 09, 2003 | Posts: 210
Location: Troy, MI

shaq

posted on Apr 18, 2007 - 09:47 PM

I dont care whether the hymns on here are just streamed or available for download, I would just like some sense in the reasoning.

I am completely failing to make any sense of what some of you are saying.

How are you respecting the wishes of the cantors if they are dead and have never voiced any decision concerning the distribution of their recordings?

And who is benefitting from not downloading some of the reposed cantors recordings? They arent getting any money for it whether people download them or not. In fact, many of these hymns arent even sold in regular churches. The only ones I know of are the 2 cds that the moharraq monastery prepared for mlm tawfik, the cd for mlm farag, and the 3 sets of instructional hymns that the old cathedral in cairo sells for mlm faheem.

I dont think anyone can claim the HICS wants money for their recordings. They dont even sell them. They are free to be copied by people and churches sell them for Non-Profit. Only if someone tries to make a profit of the recordings than that would be wrong.

No arguement until now holds against this.

The only thing that makes sense is if the people who gave the recordings requested it not to be available for download. This is understandable by the site. But I dont believe one should blame it all on copyrights.

Also, the site managers may just say we dont feel like putting them out for download. Thats understandable as well.

But I dont like how people are saying its respectng copyrights or the wish of the dead cantors when that is clearly not the case.

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

PaulS

posted on Apr 19, 2007 - 02:31 AM

Hello,

I am completely failing to make any sense of what some of you are saying.

How are you respecting the wishes of the cantors if they are dead and have never voiced any decision concerning the distribution of their recordings?

Did you read my post above? As far as I know, Mu'allim Ibrahim Ayaad is not dead. He has voiced his opinion quite clearly. As for the rest, the decision lies with those who made the tapes themselves; they have every right to sell the tapes they spent money to produce.

I dont think anyone can claim the HICS wants money for their recordings. They dont even sell them. They are free to be copied by people and churches sell them for Non-Profit. Only if someone tries to make a profit of the recordings than that would be wrong.

That is absolutely false and incorrect. Who told you any of this? Who on earth told you they weren't for sale? There is a dedicated HICS Bookstore in the Cathedral in which all of the tapes are sold. There is a price list outlining all of the works available, how many tapes in each, and their respective prices.

Moreover, the HICS has an actual leader who was appointed by Dr. Ragheb Moftah. His name is Dr. Micheal Badie. As the person in charge, he has every right to dictate how the collections will be distributed. You may have a problem with his authority. If that is your position, it's fine, but I personally don't have a problem respecting his wishes.


GBU,
Paul

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

shaq

posted on Apr 19, 2007 - 03:27 AM

Hey Paul, thanks for your quick reply!

I obviously was not speaking Mlm Ibrahim Paul since I know he is not dead lol I am speaking about the ones who have already passed away. I know the whole situation with him. As for the HICS, please forgive my ignorance as I was previously misinformed and I stand corrected.


But what about the other recordings? That is my question? who owns their copyrights?

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

pavly

posted on Apr 19, 2007 - 03:29 AM

I think some of this discussion is arising from the fact that the "providers" use the reason of the copyright, and that's where some disagree...why would anyone decide to copyright his rendering of the hymn?? because we think it belongs to the Church and not to the individual rendering the hymn.

In the meantime, I would be totally free to record something and refuse that it be distributed for free and without control if I spent time learning it and recording it over and over until the recording is perfect.

And that is where Paul's and other's arguments are coming from: the authors themselves don't want to just give away what they worked for in order to record, because the "monetary profit" from these recording is what makes them live. Remember, this would be their only source of income. Imagine volunteering for your whole life (even if it's service for God) and not getting anything in return: would you do that, and say "God will provide?" Not everyone can do that...

Pavly

Joined: Feb 10, 2003 | Posts: 331
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada

shaq

posted on Apr 19, 2007 - 03:46 AM

ok, we all agree with what you are saying in terms of Mlm Ibrahim and in terms of the HICS. But what about the other reposed Moalemeen?

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

JGirgis137

posted on Apr 20, 2007 - 03:08 PM

From PaulS:
Moreover, the HICS has an actual leader who was appointed by Dr. Ragheb Moftah. His name is Dr. Micheal Badie. As the person in charge, he has every right to dictate how the collections will be distributed. You may have a problem with his authority. If that is your position, it's fine, but I personally don't have a problem respecting his wishes.


If Dr. Badie is in charge of the HICS recordings, then it was his decision not to allow downloading?

If it was his decision not to allow free downloading and he is responsible to protect and distribute the recordings then why hasn't the idea of selling the hymns recorded by the HICS electronically been presented to him??? Does he understand that this would not only be a great service to those of us who cannot go to Egypt and get them ourselves but also provide a great deal of revenue for his library???

It seems that this site is set on leaving things the way they are, which they have every right to do. If that is the case just say it and this string will end. Otherwise, present a feasible solution, wait for feedback and proceed with the concensus.

We are making this much more difficult than it needs to be.... We could have solved this problem by now.


John G.

Joined: Apr 06, 2003 | Posts: 7

PaulS

posted on Apr 20, 2007 - 04:19 PM

Hello,

If it was his decision not to allow free downloading and he is responsible to protect and distribute the recordings then why hasn't the idea of selling the hymns recorded by the HICS electronically been presented to him??? Does he understand that this would not only be a great service to those of us who cannot go to Egypt and get them ourselves but also provide a great deal of revenue for his library???

You're looking at the problem in only one way. It seems to me that you're focused on dissemination of the current recordings we have from the HICS. Dr. Badie seems to be looking at keeping the HICS alive so they can record more collections for our benefit. It's not like everything has been recorded; we have a long way to go.

Irrespective of which perspective is right, as I've said before, it's for me--one of hundreds of thousands of deacons in the Coptic Church--to decide. I only do what is right, and in this circumstance, listening to my elders and the owners of the recordings seems right to me.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

geomekhaiel

posted on Apr 20, 2007 - 07:18 PM

Hi again everyone,

The more that I think about this topic the more I realize how stupid it really is. There is no need of argument because recordings are not that hard to find.

I hope that everyone can open their eyes and see that coptichymns.net isn't the only source for listening to a hymn. There are tons of other sources online (many of which allow downloading). If people like Paul don't to give us what we are asking for for then there are other sites that do.

I love coptichymns.net...its my home page and everything... but there are other sites like tasbeha.org that allow downloading.

Also, tapes are not that hard to find either. If you go to a place like the monastery (or even a good church book store) you will find most of the recordings you need. ...it's not that hard.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1710
Location: Saint George COC

carolb

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 12:16 AM

From geomekhaiel:There is no need of argument because recordings are not that hard to find.

I hope that everyone can open their eyes and see that coptichymns.net isn't the only source for listening to a hymn. There are tons of other sources online (many of which allow downloading). If people like Paul don't to give us what we are asking for for then there are other sites that do.

Wow. I am not really sure where to begin, but it seems as if you have totally missed the mark here. Many people have clearly delineated the position of the cantors, and those holders of the collections of cantors' recordings, with respect to what it downloadable and what - by request - is not.

You, however, have advocated taking by force what is not permitted for us to take. Certainly, if you wish to go to other websites and download recordings that we know should not be downloaded, that is your prerogative. I remember His Holiness once gave a sermon on this very topic with respect to videos produced by churches. His Holiness likened usurping such media as stealing. I leave it to the conscious of people on this website to make the right decision.

As Paul said, however, we at coptichymns.net will respect the wishes of those who have provided the media on this site. It is not a matter of withholding the choicest of collections or being selfish. It is a matter of respect and of honesty.

God bless you,
carol

_________________
Administrator of Forums, Articles, Spiritual Songs, and the Book Exchange.

"And they continued steadfastly in the fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers... So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God." (Acts 2:42, 46)

Joined: Mar 25, 2004 | Posts: 402
Location: Southern California

geomekhaiel

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 02:10 AM

Carol,

I don't see any harm in downloading hymns, which is why I do it. I find that people who oppose downloading hymns are just uncool (I was looking for a better word but couldn't think of one). I see no harm in it...

I don't think any cantor should say that he would want his recordings not downloadable. I don't respect that. I find that Christ wouldn't that.

But the point of the point is what paul said, which is that it is not up to us to say if things should be downloadable on this site or not, it is up to him. I respect his wishes, because it is his site and he can choose to do with it as he likes. I may not agree with his choise, but it is his to make.

On the bright side of things, there are sooo many other sites from which you can download from. These sites are run by people who understand the value of being able to download hymns....which is something that I respect.

As I said before, coptichymns.net is only on site out of a multitude of sites.

George Mekhaiel

btw, I think I made many great points in my other replies...i suggest that if you didn't read those that you do.

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1710
Location: Saint George COC

shaq

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 02:23 AM

Once again, My answer has not been addressed, not clearly atleast.

As I said before, I totally respect Paul and whoever else helps run this site concerning their policy. I also do not wish to change the site from streaming to downloading hymns either. I just request a clear response to the same question I asked atleast 3 times before...

Whats the reason behind the DEAD Moalemeen recordings not being available for download. I dont mind them not being available for download, I would just like to know why. This is not including the very few sold by the church as a cd-rom, e.g. Mlm Farag's cd, Mlm Tewfik's 3 cds. The other have no copyright so whats the reason?...

Thanks and God bless

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 02:45 AM

Hi Shaq,

My heart goes out for u man hehe. Poor guy trying to get an answer for the past 3 pages to no avail. Here is what I think and it is probably not a complete picture by any standards. Sometimes, though the cantor himself may be deceased, there are family members such as children or brothers or a wife that hold the right for the distribution of his tapes. Even if there is no official copyright, it might even be a case of the family still reaping profit from these tapes to sustain them. I can see that happening, i dont know any specific stories though and I stand corrected if thats not the case with any of the cantors in question. (Paul..Carol...I know ur out there. Respond and correct me if I have erred )

George, beloved cousin.

Ya habibi, the whole point of this thread is that we should not be disrespectful to the wishes of our elders. The blessed pillars of hymnology who spent their whole lives learning and teaching and preserving hymns so that you and I today in 21st Century America can learn and benefit and pray. These guys for whatever reason choose not to let their hard work be distributed for free. Who cares why that is or whether its their right or not? They are older and we love them (u know u love that gholghotha from Mllm. tewfik..I know u too well lol). And if we really love them and are grateful for their hard work, cant we just respect them too? Wild I know!

So I also think ur missing the whole point when after 3 whole pages of discussing this, ur solution is to go somewhere else and download. Its not just a sin if Paul disobeys the cantors and offers things for downloads. its also a sin if anyone of us promotes stealing and grabs free meals of hymns from other websites to make copies and give people (I think people here have agreed that downloading for personal use is not necessarily hurting anyone....am i wrong anyone?)

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1782

shaq

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 04:20 AM

Thanks for responding Ramez! lol good assumption. I hope Paul can respond though.

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY

shaq

posted on Apr 21, 2007 - 04:22 AM

It seems somewhat similar to a church rather than family selling a muallem's tape/tapes such as the old cathedral in the azbakia selling Mlm Faheem's tasbeha and liturgy tapes.

Joined: Feb 07, 2003 | Posts: 337
Location: brooklyn,NY