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The Coptic Church and the Environment

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Biboboy

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 12:25 AM

Agape,

I have studied how other churches, such as the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches, are deeply involved in the environmental movement. It is, indeed, a concern for us Christians, since we learn from the saints that we should live in moderation (asceticism) and respect God's creation because it is good and takes part with us in praising and glorifying God (e.g. the Third Canticle in Tasbeha). The Eastern Orthodox have actually gone as far as calling it a "sin" to consciously continue to deteriorate the earth's resources and not caring for the environment.

Why aren't we, the members of the Coptic Orthodox Church (whether lay or ordained), involved in intiatives to caring for the environment? Why aren't the church servants spreading the awareness of our duty as Christians to be stewards of creation? And, why isn't anyone interested in making our parishes more eco-friendly (e.g. recycling all the paper cups and plates after an Agape meal, using energy-efficient CFL light-bulbs)?

What can be done to change our attitudes in church (and even our homes) to one that takes into consideration a Christian and ethical way of living on earth and caring for the environment?

And now that you read this post, how are YOU going to spread awareness of this issue and try to get the Coptic Church invovled?


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
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Iqbal

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 01:29 AM

You make a very important point, and it is one that my lecturer, HE Archbishop Stylianos, is in fact an ardent and passionate proponent of (he wrote an article on the issue entitled "The Sacredness of Creation" in Phronema).

Although it is one I haven't seen addressed by any Coptic clergy or theologian, it is one that has in fact been stressed by a very well known leader of "our Church": His Grace Paulos Mar Gregorios, the late Indian Orthodox Bishop. His Grace used the teachings of St Gregory of Nyssa as his guiding principle in developing his thoughts and arguments on the matter in his magnificent Cosmic Man.

Unfortunately, and, I believe, needless to say, the state of the Coptic Church's scholarship is quite impoverished, which is why, in my pursuit to better understand "our Church's" position on many issues, I have invested much money and time on literature produced by our sister Churches--the Syrians, Indians and Armenians, who prove to be much more capable; I think we need to learn a lesson or two from them.

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Biboboy

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 01:55 AM

Agape,

Yes, H.G. the later Paulos Gregorios has truly inspiring works, taking a lot from the theology of St. Gregory of Nyssa concerning nature and applying its implications to the present ecological crisis. I am actually using his book "The Human Presence: An Orthodox View of Nature" (published by the WCC) in my thesis.

While it is true, as you mentioned, Iqbal, that not much ecological theology has been worked out by the Coptic Orthodox Church, I think we can always use the resources that are available from other churches that address the issue. But the immediate issue that I'm concerned about is not the development of that kind of theology in our church, but the praxis that is required of us in our Church. I really find that no one actually cares about the issue in our church - in fact, there is no awareness of the issue as a "Christian" issue (most think it's politics and economics, but that's not the whole picture). Strangely, all kinds of social issues are addressed in our churches, talked about in youth meetings and Sunday Schools, and some people are active in missionary work and other kinds of service. But when it comes to the environment, which is the most pressing issue and actually concerns living out our Christian faith in truth, our Church is sadly mute and inactive.

I hope no one here reads what I wrote as a negative criticism the Church - I just want to awaken the people in the Church that is filled with the true faith and begin living and doing something as true Christians to resolve the environmental crisis.

After all, the environmental crisis is the product of human greed, of human abuse of intelligence and power, of lack of compassion towards other creatures and their habitats. As Christians, how on earth can we lay back and not care about this issue?


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

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Paisios

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 01:58 AM

Friends,
I want to refer your attention to a book I authored a few years ago entitled Peace with Nature: Orthodoxy and the Environment. This was and I believe is the only book writen by a Copt on this issue. I was blessed to have both HH Pope Shenouda III and HH the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I write introductions for the book. Your church bookstore may have it, if not please visit
http://www.stmarkcoccleveland.org/peacewithnature.html
or send me a message here and I'll get you a copy.
I write not to attract attention, but for you to know that our Coptic Orthodox Church is not behind the ball on this important issue.
Pray for me,
Bishoy M. Mikhail
Cleveland, Ohio

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Biboboy

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 02:10 AM

Agape,

Bishoy Mikhail, thank you very much for not just pointing out this resource, but for actually writing it too! I was not aware of its existence, and having it introduced by H.H. Pope Shenouda is a great sign of our Church moving ahead with the issue.

With that, I consider that we have the Church's blessings to begin working on initiatives (both at the individual level and at the parish level) to caring for the environment.


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

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+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

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Iqbal

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 02:13 AM

Dear Biboboy,

As is implicit in your response, the first step that needs to be understaken in pursuit of promoting a practical change is to encourage a theoretical appreciation of the significance of the issue and its intimacy to our calling as Orthodox Christians, particularly amongst the youth. Education is the key. The very creation of this thread is a great start.

Dear Paisios,

Your work seems quite impressive, and I am more than happy to have been proven wrong in my assessment that the Coptic Church has been completely silent on the matter.

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minasoliman

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 03:29 AM

Dear Iqbal and Biboboy,

It was actually because of Bishoy Mikhail that also opened me up to do something about the environment. In fact, we talked about his book ages ago here in the CMN forums:

http://coptichymns.net/index.php?name=P ... +orthodoxy

God bless.

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Publican

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 08:48 AM

Agape,

I highly recommend Bishoy's book, it is a wonderful read; just the fact that it is an amalgamation of labors in the Greek and Coptic Churches increases its value one hundred fold...I hope further collaborations in the future between our beloved churches will continue to flourish. I gave Bishoy’s book to my environmental ethics professor and he loved it.

God Bless

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Biboboy

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 01:35 PM

Agape,

Thanks for pointing out that link minasoliman.

Well, now that we have the theology part covered in the books mentioned, let's return to my original question: what are the practical things that can be done? Why isn't awareness being spread, and why isn't this theology put into practice both by the parishes as well as individual Christians in our homes?


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

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lowlyman

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posted on Jul 20, 2007 - 03:27 PM

Perhaps one can lead by example in this case. For example those of us in the United States are required by their towns to recycle. Another action we can take is not to invest in companies that pollute the environment. Or, we can write our congressman's on environmental issues. Perhaps more importantly, and especially those of us here in the United States, we should consume less. Finally, what about bringing up our children to value and protect the environment.

lowlyman
Thanks for the pointer on the book. I will queue it up.

From Biboboy:Agape,

Thanks for pointing out that link minasoliman.

Well, now that we have the theology part covered in the books mentioned, let's return to my original question: what are the practical things that can be done? Why isn't awareness being spread, and why isn't this theology put into practice both by the parishes as well as individual Christians in our homes?

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Biboboy

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posted on Jul 26, 2007 - 05:29 PM

Agape,

If anyone here uses Facebook and is interested, I created a new group called "Christian Orthodoxy and Ecology."

Join the group and invite others!

Here's the link: http://facebook.com/group.php?gid=4125710710&ref=mf


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

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+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Biboboy

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posted on Aug 11, 2007 - 01:52 PM

Agape,

I came across the following interview online, with theology Prof. Vigen Guroian. It's really interesting.

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/ ... ndex.shtml


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Biboboy

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posted on Oct 22, 2007 - 04:24 PM

Agape,

I came across two new online resources that may be useful. They're still under construction at this point, so bookmark them for future reference.

The Orthodox Fellowship of the Transfiguration:
http://www.orth-transfiguration.org/

(When this website is finished, it sections will include Announcements, Programs, a Library of Orthodox materials on care for God's creation, and a list of ways that you or your parish might participate in the challenge of a right relationship to the earth).

Religion, Science and the Environment:
http://www.rsesymposia.org/


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Biboboy

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posted on Oct 22, 2007 - 10:51 PM

Agape,

And here's another resource - a whole lecture! The link below is a downloadable link of a lecture on the [Orthodox] Church and the Environment by Rev. Dr. John Chryssavgis:

http://www.myocn.net/images/stories/pod ... aments.mp3

Another link with a streaming option is below:

http://www.myocn.net/index.php?option=c ... Itemid=207


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Biboboy

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posted on Apr 01, 2008 - 03:17 AM

Agape,

I came across an interview with Rev. Deacon John Chryssavgis online, posted on March 21, 2008:

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/illumined ... ogy_pc.mp3


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Apr 01, 2008 - 01:56 PM

Any "theology" about the environment is going to be highly inductive because the Bible simply doesn't speak directly to the issue.

The problem with inserting Christianity into the mix is that our religion is one of absolutes and the environmental question is a matter of where to draw the line. So, on its face, we're going to have a problem.

Not to say that the environmental issue isn't important, it's just not a matter for Christianity. Think of it as a socia-political issue and go from there.

In anticipation of a lot of dissenting responses, remember what I said - highly inductive. So, don't answer me with, "Hey! God created Earth and it's our responsibility to take care of it." First of all, that's no where in the Bible, second of all, where does that responsibility start and stop? And third of all, where are you getting all this from?

Note: deduction can be used. An example of deduction: 2+2 = 4 and 1+3 = 4, therefore I deduce that 2+2 = 1+3.

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Biboboy

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posted on Apr 01, 2008 - 04:05 PM

TruthSeeker, I'm not sure what's your point? Both deduction and induction are logical ways of understanding, and both could consist of valid arguments. Don't forget that all of science is inductive - it doesn't seem that anyone here using a computer would argue against the scientific method of induction?

Anyway, I suggest reading and listening to all the resources I provided here. There's plenty of information on the theology of the environment - whether from the biblical ethics (both in the OT and NT), liturgical and sacramental viewpoint, theological anthropology, or Orthodox eschatology.


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

Image
+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Apr 01, 2008 - 04:36 PM

Induction is only a valid logical tool if we're talking about a non-absolute subject. That is, you can use induction to support an opinion, but you cannot use induction to support a theological conclusion.

I.e. you can say that "In my opinion, because God created the Earth, it's our resonsibility to be environmentally friendly." I would respond with, "The conclusion that it's our responsibility to be environmentally friendly does not necessarily flow from that premise.

Since Christianity is a matter of Absolute Truth, not opinion, if you have to use induction to get to a conclusion, that's merely your opinion of Christianity, not what Christianity actually teaches.

That's why all theologically-related conclusions that are only supported by induction should be thrown out, because then Christianity becomes an opinions game, not an absolute certainty.

Deductively, the fact that God created the Earth has NOTHING to do with us being environmentally-friendly. The best anyone can do is say, "well, using too much light is gluttonous, so..." Well, then we're not talking about Christianity and the environment, we're talking about Christianity and gluttony.

All of the sources that have been put forth (except Bishoy's book) has been authored by Eastern Orthodox. I'm not compelled to read EO books. Why don't you summarize your findings here. I'm not going to read a book to get something you can summarize in 10 minutes.

P.S. Science doesn't prove anything, it just disproves. Saying science is inductive implies it concludes something inductively. No it doesn't.

To use the friendly Wikipedia:

"The most powerful statements in science are those with the widest applicability. Newton's Third Law — "for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction" — is a powerful statement because it applies to every action, anywhere, and at any time.

But it is not possible for scientists to have tested every incidence of an action, and found a reaction. How is it, then, that they can assert that the Third Law is in some sense true? They have, of course, tested many, many actions, and in each one have been able to find the corresponding reaction. But can we be sure that the next time we test the Third Law, it will be found to hold true?"

Let's not go on a tangent about science...

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Biboboy

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 02:28 AM

From Truth.Seeker:

I.e. you can say that "In my opinion, because God created the Earth, it's our resonsibility to be environmentally friendly." I would respond with, "The conclusion that it's our responsibility to be environmentally friendly does not necessarily flow from that premise.

Since Christianity is a matter of Absolute Truth, not opinion, if you have to use induction to get to a conclusion, that's merely your opinion of Christianity, not what Christianity actually teaches.



But that is not the only premise. We also know from the Bible a lot of other premises:

1- that God willed to create the world by his word, and that his divine wisdom is revealed in creation. It was not created by a lesser god (Plato's argument), nor by an evil god (Gnostics' argument), nor was it the product of chance (Epicureans, Richard Dawkins..), nor is it a god on its own (paganism); therefore creation is God's will. Today, we forget that we have two books of divine revelation (the Book of Scripture, and the Book of Nature), are are irresponsibly tearing the pages of the divine wisdom revealed through creation.

2- that we were created to be stewards of creation. Today, we're being destroyers, not stewards.

3- that the Sabbath rest and Jubilee were made for the land's rest. Today, we're over-producing.

4- that God has a covenant with creation since Noah's age. Today, we think God belongs to us only.

5- that God is revealed in creation - hence the manifestations of God in creation, and ultimately the Incarnation of God. Today, we forget that we priests of creation.

6- that God wills to save the groaning creation, which will resurrect and be transfigured, as we will resurrect and be glorified. Today, we treat the environment as a means for profit in the economy, and forget that creation, according to the Bible, is rather a part of the economy of salvation.

All of the sources that have been put forth (except Bishoy's book) has been authored by Eastern Orthodox. I'm not compelled to read EO books. Why don't you summarize your findings here.

What difference does it make? The environmental crisis affects all human beings, and all of us are expected to respond in some way or the other. Our responses as Christians to this crisis is beyond denominational boundaries - just like, for example, we won't say that we don't believe in charity because the EO and Catholics wrote about the global issues of poverty. We all, as Christians, agree that poverty is a problem that causes suffering, that the prophets and Christ preached social justice, and we all need to do something about it through God's guidance. The same applies to the environment - it's a crisis beyond denominational issues, and it's a crisis that can be responded to in an ecumenical effort (and that's being done already, such as efforts by the World Council of Churches).


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

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+ To Protect and Preserve +

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 03:28 AM

All of the EO books I've read (about 30 or 40) use different premises than ours but come to the same conclusions with the exception of Christology. So, their logic is almost always off. For example, most of them think the "rock" in Matthew 16:18 is actually referring to Peter, while our Church and 80% of Church Fathers don't think so. If the dumbest person on Earth says 2 + 2 = 4, I'll awknowledge that he's right. This is not what I'm talking about when I say I'm not compelled to read EO books. They just don't make sense most of the time.

1) Why are you talking to me about plato? Why don't you add that Christ is our Savior to the mix? How about 2 + 2 = 4 as well? (Yes, those are completely random to what we are talking about, and that's the point). Book of Nature? WHAT are you talking about? Where did you hear about this book? And yes, I know it's metaphorical. But to somehow put something out of the blue on the same plane as the Holy Bible is beyond my comprehension.

2) Where in the Bible does it say we were created to be stewards of creation? In Genesis it says we will rule over everything, it doesn't say we have to "take care of it."

3) For all we know, the "land sabbath" happening once every seven years was about God implementing good planting techniques. Our technologies today take care of that.

4) God said He will never again destroy the Earth and everything living on it. That has nothing to do with what humans can do on Earth.

5) The Word's incarnation was Him becoming human. Again, nothing to do with protecting the environment.

6) Not once did I find Christ or St. Paul in the New Testament say that the Earth is going to resurrect at the end of times. Again, what are you talking about?

Nothing you have cited leads to your conclusions. That's why I pointed out the logical fallacy of induction before I got responses, because I knew that's the only thing that'll be used.

I want to help the environment as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean it's a Christian matter to help the environment. If protecting the environment is a Christian matter, then a person who throws a piece of gum onto the ground is committing a sin. I think we have enough sins to worry about, let's not add non-Biblical sins on top of them.

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AMoussa01

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 04:46 AM

What on earth do you mean by "non-Biblical sins?" There is no such a thing. Either its a sin or its not a sin.

GB
Tony


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Biboboy

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 04:52 AM

Agape,

If you're not satisfied with the 2 EO sources I gave above, both from Deacon Chryssavgis, then you should at least consider the works of Bishoy Mikhail, H.G. the departed Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios (Indian Orthodox), and Prof. Vigen Guroian (Armenian). All three are OO. At any rate, if you look at their works, they don't have the same approach as you do towards the EO, but instead they collaborate together to work on Christian approaches and solutions to the environmental problem at hand.

1- I don't understand the first part of what you said. But concerning your question about the Book of Nature, the Church Fathers were clear about it. I have the direct quotes now, but I can provide you with the sources if you want them (at a later time):

St. Athanasius: "In the Book of Creation.. the creatures are like letters proclaiming in loud voices to their Divine Master and Creator the harmony and order of things."

St. Antony: "My book, O philosopher, is the nature of created things, and any time I want to read the words of God, the book is before me."

St. John Chrysostom: "One way of coming to knowledge of God is that which is provided by the whole creation; and another is that which is offered by conscience... Two teachers, then, are given you from the beginning: creation and conscience. Neither of them has voice to speak out; yet they teach us in silence."

St. Augustine: "Some people, in order to discover God, read books. But there is a great book: the very appearance of created things. Look above you! Look below you! Note it. Read it. God, whom you want to discover, never wrote that book with ink. Instead, He set before your eyes the things that He had made. Can you ask for a louder voice than that? Why, heaven and earth shout to you: 'God made me!'"

2- "The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it" (Genesis 2:15).

3- Good planting techniques? Read the law again - it's given for the sake of rest. If the Sabbath was made for man, then it's also true that the Sabbath was made to give rest to the toiling animals and land: "For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat. You shall do the same with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. For six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest, so that your ox and your donkey may have relief, and your home-born slave and the resident alien may be refreshed" (Ex. 23:10-12).

4- It means that creation is part of the covenant, and it can enter into relationship with God because of the covenant, just as humanity is in relationship to God through the covenant. Both humand and the whole of creation are in relationship with God.

5- "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16).

"For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross" (Col. 1:19-20).

"With all wisdom and insight he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph. 1:8-10).

And from St. Irenaeus (Adv. Her. V18:3), who sums it up nicely:
"For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God: and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He came to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself."

6- For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labour pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:19-23). [/b]


_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member

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+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

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lowlyman

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 12:21 PM

God bless you! Great quotes. Thank you.


From Biboboy:Agape,

If you're not satisfied with the 2 EO sources I gave above, both from Deacon Chryssavgis, then you should at least consider the works of Bishoy Mikhail, H.G. the departed Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios (Indian Orthodox), and Prof. Vigen Guroian (Armenian). All three are OO. At any rate, if you look at their works, they don't have the same approach as you do towards the EO, but instead they collaborate together to work on Christian approaches and solutions to the environmental problem at hand.

1- I don't understand the first part of what you said. But concerning your question about the Book of Nature, the Church Fathers were clear about it. I have the direct quotes now, but I can provide you with the sources if you want them (at a later time):

St. Athanasius: "In the Book of Creation.. the creatures are like letters proclaiming in loud voices to their Divine Master and Creator the harmony and order of things."

St. Antony: "My book, O philosopher, is the nature of created things, and any time I want to read the words of God, the book is before me."

St. John Chrysostom: "One way of coming to knowledge of God is that which is provided by the whole creation; and another is that which is offered by conscience... Two teachers, then, are given you from the beginning: creation and conscience. Neither of them has voice to speak out; yet they teach us in silence."

St. Augustine: "Some people, in order to discover God, read books. But there is a great book: the very appearance of created things. Look above you! Look below you! Note it. Read it. God, whom you want to discover, never wrote that book with ink. Instead, He set before your eyes the things that He had made. Can you ask for a louder voice than that? Why, heaven and earth shout to you: 'God made me!'"

2- "The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it" (Genesis 2:15).

3- Good planting techniques? Read the law again - it's given for the sake of rest. If the Sabbath was made for man, then it's also true that the Sabbath was made to give rest to the toiling animals and land: "For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat. You shall do the same with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. For six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest, so that your ox and your donkey may have relief, and your home-born slave and the resident alien may be refreshed" (Ex. 23:10-12).

4- It means that creation is part of the covenant, and it can enter into relationship with God because of the covenant, just as humanity is in relationship to God through the covenant. Both humand and the whole of creation are in relationship with God.

5- "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16).

"For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross" (Col. 1:19-20).

"With all wisdom and insight he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph. 1:8-10).

And from St. Irenaeus (Adv. Her. V18:3), who sums it up nicely:
"For the Creator of the world is truly the Word of God: and this is our Lord, who in the last times was made man, existing in this world, and who in an invisible manner contains all things created, and is inherent in the entire creation, since the Word of God governs and arranges all things; and therefore He came to His own in a visible manner, and was made flesh, and hung upon the tree, that He might sum up all things in Himself."

6- For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labour pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies" (Rom. 8:19-23). [/b]

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 12:46 PM

Bishoy,

How about this: since Nature is so precious, all of us are wrong to have built anything. Even better, let me go to the other extreme, since everything we do to nature is from nature itself, than everything is fine. Since God created all things, then everything is good. Carbon monoxide is just Carbon and Oxygen put together. Cars are made from metals taken from nature, etc.

With regards to your quotes. All the saints are pointing to the fact that God created everything. That's not news. To make your point you should use Romans I, where St. Paul says that we know that God exists by "the things that are made." That's what St. Augustine is getting at.

No environmental impact will "change that." Because WE are the most complex thing that He has made. So, as long as there are humans, the theological importance of seeing nature in "harmony" is not important.

There's not a separate "Book of Nature" apart from the Bible, the saints get everything they wrote from the Bible.

2. And the point is? If genesis 2 is about the preciousness of the environment, God wouldn't have destroyed it when He destroyed man in the flood. Simple.

3. Thank you for finding the verse for me. Why to let the land rest? "so that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat." Nothing to do with the environment.

4. Creation is not rational. If you're not rational you can't enter into a covenant. You can't enter into anything.

5. It's straight up heterodoxy to say that Christ came to save the environment. The "world" here is referring to Jews and Gentiles, not the planet Earth. The "all things" you're mentioning is talking about Earth AND Heaven, including, humans, angels, the 24 priests, the beasts, etc...They're not all human, so the Apostle couldn't just say, "gather all people." Read the verses in context.

6. In Romans 8, St. Paul is talking about humans and humans only, by "all of creation" he means Christians and non-Christians alike. Here:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

"that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." If your interpretation is correct, than apparently trees groan with birth pangs. Interesting.

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lowlyman

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posted on Apr 03, 2008 - 01:44 PM

Truth.Seeker

I don't know how you can make the arguments that you are making, no matter how logically correct/incorrect they are. For instance, how can you say the following in a Christian
From Truth.Seeker:Bishoy,

How about this: since Nature is so precious, all of us are wrong to have built anything. Even better, let me go to the other extreme, since everything we do to nature is from nature itself, than everything is fine. Since God created all things, then everything is good. Carbon monoxide is just Carbon and Oxygen put together. Cars are made from metals taken from nature, etc.

With regards to your quotes. All the saints are pointing to the fact that God created everything. That's not news. To make your point you should use Romans I, where St. Paul says that we know that God exists by "the things that are made." That's what St. Augustine is getting at.

No environmental impact will "change that." Because WE are the most complex thing that He has made. So, as long as there are humans, the theological importance of seeing nature in "harmony" is not important.

There's not a separate "Book of Nature" apart from the Bible, the saints get everything they wrote from the Bible.

2. And the point is? If genesis 2 is about the preciousness of the environment, God wouldn't have destroyed it when He destroyed man in the flood. Simple.

3. Thank you for finding the verse for me. Why to let the land rest? "so that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat." Nothing to do with the environment.

4. Creation is not rational. If you're not rational you can't enter into a covenant. You can't enter into anything.

5. It's straight up heterodoxy to say that Christ came to save the environment. The "world" here is referring to Jews and Gentiles, not the planet Earth. The "all things" you're mentioning is talking about Earth AND Heaven, including, humans, angels, the 24 priests, the beasts, etc...They're not all human, so the Apostle couldn't just say, "gather all people." Read the verses in context.

6. In Romans 8, St. Paul is talking about humans and humans only, by "all of creation" he means Christians and non-Christians alike. Here:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

"that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." If your interpretation is correct, than apparently trees groan with birth pangs. Interesting.

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