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tonyhabibi

posted on Aug 26, 2007 - 05:55 PM

someone was teaching little kids that angels are jealous of humans for they have the ability to take communion ?

but i felt , that that sentence wasnt so true .... am i wrong ?
i dont think angels would be jealous the same way humans r jealous toward one another .

so whats the right thing ?

can angels sin ?

aND IF angels are indeed jealous of humans taking communion ... then would that make them fall under the sin of pride , because they would want to be bigger then their already established angelic rank in heaven .....

oh and r humans higher then angels .. in rank ?

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jojo34

posted on Aug 27, 2007 - 02:24 AM

Actually Tonyhabibi, I only know one part of this question. Sorry.
I was TAUGHT that God chooses angels who are sinless. so therefor angels are a higher rank than humans.

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tonyhabibi

posted on Aug 27, 2007 - 03:05 AM

i dont think thats so true .... wasnt the devil originally an angel ? .... he sinned by the sin of pride .

so apparently an angel can sin ???

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jojo34

posted on Aug 27, 2007 - 03:58 AM

yes he did, although that was in the old testement.
as i was told .

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statichuman2

posted on Aug 27, 2007 - 11:36 PM

The way i always was taught was that angels could sin, but after lucifer sinned, god took away the free will of angels, so they couldn't sin. As for them being jealous that's different. We say in the gregorian liturgy "this mystery which the angels desire to behold", so they're not really jealous, they just wish they could have it too.

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jydeacon

posted on Aug 28, 2007 - 12:29 AM

Just one correction here i'd like to make, God did not take their free wills away from them but they gave it up to God willingly, and this is another factor why Satan fell as well as the fact that he wanted to put his throne above Gods

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David_the_King

posted on Aug 28, 2007 - 12:37 AM

As it was stated, angels no longer have the ability to sin. God took their free will. They are now servers of God. So if there is no free will of angels, then there is no emotion i.e. pride, jealousy, anger, etc.

Humans are higher than angels because we are the children of God. God created humans in his own image and was incarnate and took human form. Angels are created to ultimately serve God, but to also serve humans. They are the servers of God, we are his children. Any parent loves his own children over his servant. Yes, they do wish to partake of communion, but they are in contact, physically, with God. They live in the heavens with our savior, we do not. So I wouldn't say that they are jealous of us. We humans have things that an angel cannot have, like free will and communion, and angels have something we do not have, which is the ability to see God and live in heaven with him.

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Remnkemi

posted on Aug 28, 2007 - 02:13 PM

Excuse me, but where does it say that angels have no free will? That's ridiculous. If that were true, why do we even bother asking for Archangel Michael's intercessions? If he automatically intercedes then we're asking for the obvious, aren't we? It's like asking water to satisfy our thirst or asking air to carry oxygen or asking fire to warm us and burn things. All these objects are things (or elements), not living beings. Elements don't have free will but every living being has a will. The only difference is how much their will is attuned to God's will and commandment. It's like a heirarchy. At the very top of the heirarchy is God Himself. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all have one will. They can not disagree with each other but they all have individual wills that are so infinitely attuned together, we can't understand it. We can only conclude that it is one will. Other living beings have varying degrees of attunement of their wills to God. Below them are exceptional humans, like the Virgin Mary, Below them are the heavenly creatures. Below them are humans in general, like John the Baptist, exceptional martyrs, saints and monks. Below them are other humans who follow God's will slightly and below them are humans who choose to deny God. Below them are animals (certain animals display high free will - like a chimpanzee who wants his mother's warmth over food). Below them are plants, bacteria, and other lower level living beings that pretty much live on survival instinct. But everyone has a free will. Otherwise, we can't be accountable for every action. If we are not accountable for our actions, then God's judgment is vain.

Now angels were judged when Lucifer rebelled against God. As a result, the remaining angels choose to be absolutely obedient to God. Does that mean any remaining angels can still rebel against God? I don't know. I think in theory they can. But I don't know what exactly happens in heaven or what God's plan is for angels. All I can say is that it makes no sense to say any living being has no free will. An angel can't be an angel without free will, neither can a human be human without free wil. Their existence ceases and becomes something else, something God did not want.

George

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Cephas

posted on Aug 28, 2007 - 03:02 PM

+ Iryny nem `hmot>

From Remnkemi:Excuse me, but where does it say that angels have no free will?

What... you mean you didn't get the memo?

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David_the_King

posted on Aug 28, 2007 - 07:17 PM

George what you said is what I meant to say, I just did not know how to state it like that. I did not mean they do NOT have free will, but like you said, they are more in tune with God's will, which is where I was trying to go. Yes, it is obvious they have free will, but not in the way that Lucifer had it. Sorry for the confusion.

Angels are higher than humans in a more spiritual rank, like it says in the hiten and commemoration of the saints. Angels are after St. Mary, but they ultimately are there for the aid of humans. That is also what I meant about them being lower than humans. They serve us, we do not serve them.

P.S. lol Cephas that was actually pretty funny. we got the memo..maybe we needa forward it to george lol

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Biboboy

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 12:25 AM

Agape,

As noted by Remenkimi, the heavenly and invisible creatures are rational creatures, so they have free will. Because of the fall of Satan and his angels, they've learnt a lesson and avoid it through their own free will. So in terms of sin, the heavenly creatures avoid sin and are always doing the will of God. They are not jealous of us, but work with us to help us, in order to fulfill God's will.

Now, humans are greater than the heavenly creatures for two reasons:

1) The heavenly creatures are invisibile, rational creatures only. Then there is the material and visible creation, which is the universe and all life as we see around us. (This is what we say in the Creed about the Father who created "all things visible and invisible). Humans, on the other hand, consist of both the visible and invisible creations - our body and our soul. The original purpose of the human is to unite the visible and the invisible. In this sense, we are greater than the heavenly creatures.

In the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:

"The Creator-Word determining to exhibit this [unity of Mind and Sense], and to produce a single living being out of both — the visible and the invisible creations, I mean — fashions Man; and taking a body from already existing matter, and placing in it a Breath taken from Himself which the Word knew to be an intelligent soul and the Image of God, as a sort of second world. He placed him, great in littleness on the earth; a new Angel, a mingled worshipper, fully initiated into the visible creation, but only partially into the intellectual; King of all upon earth, but subject to the King above; earthly and heavenly; temporal and yet immortal; visible and yet intellectual; half-way between greatness and lowliness; in one person combining spirit and flesh… (Oration 38:11).

2) God was incarnate and took our human nature to unite us with him, and by uniting us with him, he has united the whole of creation (visible and invisible) with him. In this way, we are greater than the heavenly creatures because God chose to fulfill the dispensation in the flesh, that is, through our nature. Also, he gave us his holy body and his precious blood, which are able to see and partake of, but the heavenly creatures do not. We actually say this in the hymn "Piwik," which is chanted during communion in the Annual days:

Around You stand,
The cherubim,
And the seraphim,
They cannot look at You.

But daily we behold You,
Upon the altar,
And partake of Your Body,
And Your precious Blood.

_________________
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"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
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David_the_King

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 01:54 AM

Well said Bebo. I love you.

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statichuman2

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 04:06 PM

From Biboboy:Agape,

As noted by Remenkimi, the heavenly and invisible creatures are rational creatures, so they have free will. Because of the fall of Satan and his angels, they've learnt a lesson and avoid it through their own free will. So in terms of sin, the heavenly creatures avoid sin and are always doing the will of God. They are not jealous of us, but work with us to help us, in order to fulfill God's will.

Now, humans are greater than the heavenly creatures for two reasons:

1) The heavenly creatures are invisibile, rational creatures only. Then there is the material and visible creation, which is the universe and all life as we see around us. (This is what we say in the Creed about the Father who created "all things visible and invisible). Humans, on the other hand, consist of both the visible and invisible creations - our body and our soul. The original purpose of the human is to unite the visible and the invisible. In this sense, we are greater than the heavenly creatures.

In the words of St. Gregory the Theologian:

"The Creator-Word determining to exhibit this [unity of Mind and Sense], and to produce a single living being out of both — the visible and the invisible creations, I mean — fashions Man; and taking a body from already existing matter, and placing in it a Breath taken from Himself which the Word knew to be an intelligent soul and the Image of God, as a sort of second world. He placed him, great in littleness on the earth; a new Angel, a mingled worshipper, fully initiated into the visible creation, but only partially into the intellectual; King of all upon earth, but subject to the King above; earthly and heavenly; temporal and yet immortal; visible and yet intellectual; half-way between greatness and lowliness; in one person combining spirit and flesh… (Oration 38:11).

2) God was incarnate and took our human nature to unite us with him, and by uniting us with him, he has united the whole of creation (visible and invisible) with him. In this way, we are greater than the heavenly creatures because God chose to fulfill the dispensation in the flesh, that is, through our nature. Also, he gave us his holy body and his precious blood, which are able to see and partake of, but the heavenly creatures do not. We actually say this in the hymn "Piwik," which is chanted during communion in the Annual days:

Around You stand,
The cherubim,
And the seraphim,
They cannot look at You.

But daily we behold You,
Upon the altar,
And partake of Your Body,
And Your precious Blood.



Humans are not greater than angels, nor do they have a free will. I don't know how to prove that, but i'm sure of it. It's just one of those times when your 100% sure your right.

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minasoliman

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 04:35 PM

Do you realize the waste of post that you just gave? If Biboboy was wrong, at least he stands more credible than you by offering writings from the Holy fathers. What do you offer? "I can't prove it, but I KNOW I'm right." Do you honestly think you can make a strong case by claiming your infallibility to the claim?

Are you even serious?

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statichuman2

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 04:51 PM

Why would we ask for the intercessions of an angel, if we
are higher than him? It doesn't make sense. And even in the Liturg,matins,or tasbeha when we ask for the intercessions and prayers of the angels and saints, we always list them from the order of their rank. First is St. Mary, always, then it's always the angels, then it's the saints. Then we my last point is that in psalm 8:4-5 it it says

"What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that Thou visitest him? Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels;

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Biboboy

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 05:19 PM

From statichuman2:Why would we ask for the intercessions of an angel, if we
are higher than him? It doesn't make sense. And even in the Liturg,matins,or tasbeha when we ask for the intercessions and prayers of the angels and saints, we always list them from the order of their rank. First is St. Mary, always, then it's always the angels, then it's the saints. Then we my last point is that in psalm 8:4-5 it it says

"What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that Thou visitest him? Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels;

Agape,

Well, the Theotokos is a human being, and yet we mention her name above all the heavenly creatures in our prayers.

And concerning the quote from Psalm 8, there's two things:

1) If you continue the verse, it says that humans were crowned with glory and honour.

2) The verse you quoted is a mistranslation, because the Hebrew does not say "lower than the angels." The Hebrew word used is "elohim," which means that the correct translation is "lower than God." So, the Psalm says that we are created lower than God, yet God is always mindful of us, the children of Adam, and that he crowned us with glory and honour, giving us dominion over all his works.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

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statichuman2

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 05:39 PM

You may be right, however i really don't know. Because All my bibles, and agpeyas say lower than angels, with the exception of one of them which says lower than the heavenly creatures.

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David_the_King

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 05:46 PM

Static, did you also say that humans do not have a free will?

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Biboboy

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 06:03 PM

From statichuman2:You may be right, however i really don't know. Because All my bibles, and agpeyas say lower than angels, with the exception of one of them which says lower than the heavenly creatures.

Agape,

Most of the biblical quotations we use in our church material are from the KJV, which is unfortunate, really. I suggest using more critical and reliable translations like the NRSV (and maybe the NIV).

However, a better objection would be to mention the use of the Psalm in the New Testament: the letter to the Hebrews 2:6, 7 quotes the Septuagint translation rather than the Hebrew Psalm, and it says "angels." But there is a response to that objection too, which is that the letter to the Hebrews states that humans were for "a little WHILE" lesser than the angels (as a result of the Fall), but that was reversed through Christ. So it was not the intention of God to create us lesser than the angels, but we are lesser than the angels because of the Fall, and our authority and dignity have been re-established through Christ.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 720

Remnkemi

posted on Aug 29, 2007 - 09:03 PM

From Biboboy:2) The verse you quoted is a mistranslation, because the Hebrew does not say "lower than the angels." The Hebrew word used is "elohim," which means that the correct translation is "lower than God." So, the Psalm says that we are created lower than God, yet God is always mindful of us, the children of Adam, and that he crowned us with glory and honour, giving us dominion over all his works.
I checked around. Both the Coptic Bible and Septugaint Bible say less than angels. I checked Strong's concordence and it says, el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. It is obvious that the translators of the Septugaint understood eloheem with the secondary definition "sometimes as a superlative: angels". If the first meaning is intended (that eloheem means the Supreme God) then the meaning is completely different. In the end, I would say that angel is meant here not God Himself. But the jury is out on this point.
George

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Biboboy

posted on Aug 31, 2007 - 03:08 AM

Agape,

Well, historically speaking, the Psalm was written before the age of post-exilic and apocalyptic writings, which in turn means that there is no concept of angels (as in messengers mediating between God and the material world). Yes, they knew of cherubim and seraphim, and the heavenly "hosts" who fight in wars, but not in the same sense as angels that was around when the Septuagint was composed and when Christianity arose. Read in its historical context, then, Psalm 8 does not speak of angels, but of God.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 720

statichuman2

posted on Apr 10, 2008 - 09:21 PM

The new orthodox study bible translated from the septuagint also says less than the angels. Also, St. Mary is above everything. She will be the one and only exception to this and no other human or anything whatsoever will be higher in rank than her. Therefore, she cannot be used as a valid point in your argument. I'm not sure about the fact that we were created higher than the angels until our fall, but it makes sense. I don't have anything to argue about that. I'll try to search genesis to find out if they're is anything concerning that.

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statichuman2

posted on Apr 10, 2008 - 09:23 PM

From David_the_King:Static, did you also say that humans do not have a free will?

No,

Humans have a free will. When did I say they didn't?

Joined: Apr 25, 2005 | Posts: 28

lowlyman

posted on Apr 11, 2008 - 12:48 PM

What I understand from reading the scriptures is that human have the potential of being [b][u]greater than angels[/u][/b]. In fact, the all holy theotokos is the prototype for all humans. She is not the exception, but rather the first member of the body of Christ, the perfect example of what a human, or a creature, can become through obedience to God.

Now if our Lord himself does not deny his mother's request, neither will His angels.


God bless

From statichuman2:The new orthodox study bible translated from the septuagint also says less than the angels. Also, St. Mary is above everything. She will be the one and only exception to this and no other human or anything whatsoever will be higher in rank than her. Therefore, she cannot be used as a valid point in your argument. I'm not sure about the fact that we were created higher than the angels until our fall, but it makes sense. I don't have anything to argue about that. I'll try to search genesis to find out if they're is anything concerning that.

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 215