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posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 12:26 AM
Hello All,
Do you guys think that wearing a swimming suit (trunks for guys and the girls outfit) is a sin? I will not reveal what I think yet but I will hold it after I get a few replies.
The reason why I am asking will also be revealed later.
George Mekhaiel
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George Mekhaiel
posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 01:28 AM
+ Iryny nem `hmot>
No, it is not a sin. If a person feels that they may fall into lust by looking at a person in a swim suit, then I would suggest that that individual refrain from going to either a swimming pool or the beach.
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<ere peniwt Abba Paule pimenrit `nte P=,=c
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
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-- Mark 9:24
"Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
-- Jeremiah 29:12-13
posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 01:54 AM
Agape,
There are many many many people in the world who have nothing to wear at all. Is it a sin for them to be without clothes or dressed in rags?
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"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
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posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 02:55 AM
Agape,
People who make those kinds of decisions, Tony, are not limited to wearing swim suits, but wear different clothes on different occasions with those kinds of ideas in their minds.
It doesn't follow that people who wear swim suits are sinning. It's the people who think in such a way as to "reveal" their bodies, regardless of what they wear, who are sinning and might cause others to stumble.
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!
posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 04:13 AM
Hey guys it is a sin to judge someone by what they where. God created clothing for everybody and every occation. Just as long as people do not walk around the streets nude. I wear bikinis when I go swimming or to the beach. I wear shorts, tank tops, and mini skirt during the summer. Some of my suits when I go to work have low cut jackets and mini skirts. But does that make me the type of girl who hangs out in bars to pick up men and have fun? No. In fact, I am a somewhat religious christian who goes to church and take communion regularly. I am 26 and still live at home with my mom, I do not have a boyfriend, I do not have physical relations and I do not go out to night clubs. I respect myself and know that my body is the temple of God. I hope to someday meet Mr. Right, get married, and have a family. I live a simple life but I work alot because I have a job and I am studying for my GMATs. However, I enjoy looking fashionable for summer and swimming.
posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 10:55 AM
As with most inquiries of an ethical nature, there is no absolute answer. The ramblings of the Middle-Eastern mindset will have us think that any girl on the beach in a bikini is a prostitute whose parents should have raised her better. But she could very well be a very kind-hearted and hard-working individual with more moral restraint than most of us could dream of, who simply wants to enjoy the sun and ocean in a way that is comfortable for her and in the way she is used to. Don't judge. If she is a source of temptation to you, that is your problem; look away. If you are a female yourself and would feel that wearing such swimwear will be a source of temptation to you and others, then deal with it your own way. Your conscience's process of thinking is conditioned by how you were raised and a range of other factors; it is individual and contextual, it does not apply to everyone. To each their own.
posted on Sep 13, 2007 - 11:56 AM
So, here is the reason why I asked this question:
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?q ... &catid=543
and
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=636&catid=374
I personally do not agree with Bishop Youseff and agree more with what most of the people replied back with. I do not think it is a sin except if you are doing it for the sole reason of tempting others.
George Mekhaiel
_________________
George Mekhaiel
posted on Sep 14, 2007 - 03:56 AM
First link does not speak about swimming or wearing a bathing a suit a sin but rather the fact of being a stumbling block as a result. Obviously one should not stumble others. Though the answer is a litle simplistic and may lead to the confusion you and others may have.
The second link deals with swimming under a specific situation, ie a spiritual retreat or convention
(Does His Grace actually answer all the questions personally or just approves the replies because the front page for the q&a session, no where does it state or imply that he does)
posted on Sep 14, 2007 - 07:03 PM
Iqbal,
Although I understand what you are saying, but I agree with Peter on this. In addition to what Peter had to say, I can't help but think of St. Paul's guidance to bear one another's burdens so as to fulfill the law of Christ.simply saying to someone that this is your problem is probably not a Christian thing to do.
From Iqbal:As with most inquiries of an ethical nature, there is no absolute answer. The ramblings of the Middle-Eastern mindset will have us think that any girl on the beach in a bikini is a prostitute whose parents should have raised her better. But she could very well be a very kind-hearted and hard-working individual with more moral restraint than most of us could dream of, who simply wants to enjoy the sun and ocean in a way that is comfortable for her and in the way she is used to. Don't judge. If she is a source of temptation to you, that is your problem; look away. If you are a female yourself and would feel that wearing such swimwear will be a source of temptation to you and others, then deal with it your own way. Your conscience's process of thinking is conditioned by how you were raised and a range of other factors; it is individual and contextual, it does not apply to everyone. To each their own.
posted on Sep 15, 2007 - 09:33 AM
Hello all,
I am a 27 year old religious Copt.
I believe that a person (man or woman) should dress in a way that is appropriate to the place and situation he/she is in. I think that a bathing suit/swimming suit is approapriate to wear when a person (man or woman) is swimming at the beach or in a pool. It is not approapriate to swim while wearing a shirt and tie; likewise, it is not approapriate to wear a bathing suit while doing the grocery shopping.
In short, I think that it is okay for a girl to wear a bikini while swimming and a guy to wear trunks.
Saying that, I think that girls should avoid wearing low-cut tops and mini-skirts. Such revealing clothing makes it very difficult for guys (myself included) to avoid thinking of that girl in a lustful way. When women wear revealing clothing, it causes men to stumble. We (men) cannot help it, it is just our biological nature. We can try to control it, but it is not easy. I think it is possible for girls to wear comfortable and fashionable, yet conservative, summer clothing.
posted on Sep 17, 2007 - 12:29 PM
Dear lowlyman,
It's all a matter of practicality and common sense really. The context generally determines the appropriateness of a person X's activities, and if within that context that person's appropriate activities are nevertheless tempting to a certain person Y, then it is more reasonable and practical to expect person Y to adapt to that context in a way that will preserve them from temptation or to refrain from being within that context altogether if they are not capable of adapting as such, than it is to expect person X to modify their activities in an out-of-context fashion.
The beach is a context that warrants swimwear--it is generally hot, sticky, wet and sandy (and a combination of all these things). Wearing swimwear is appropriate to that context and generally people wear swimwear solely in consideration of that context (there may be the odd person who is in that context to begin with for purposes that that context does not primarily serve--e.g. to seduce the opposite sex, but that is a separate issue). If I am not capable of observing the opposite sex act in a way appropriate to that context without being tempted, then I must adapt to that context, either by finding a secluded or unpopular area of the beach, or I should just not go to the beach at all. But I cannot go to the beach and expect people to dress out-of-context for the sake of my weakness.
posted on Sep 18, 2007 - 01:22 PM
iqbal.
this makes sense to me. perhaps the statement that bothered me on this is:" If she is a source of temptation to you, that is your problem". perhaps b/c it can be taken to extreme.
lowly
From Iqbal:Dear lowlyman,
It's all a matter of practicality and common sense really. The context generally determines the appropriateness of a person X's activities, and if within that context that person's appropriate activities are nevertheless tempting to a certain person Y, then it is more reasonable and practical to expect person Y to adapt to that context in a way that will preserve them from temptation or to refrain from being within that context altogether if they are not capable of adapting as such, than it is to expect person X to modify their activities in an out-of-context fashion.
The beach is a context that warrants swimwear--it is generally hot, sticky, wet and sandy (and a combination of all these things). Wearing swimwear is appropriate to that context and generally people wear swimwear solely in consideration of that context (there may be the odd person who is in that context to begin with for purposes that that context does not primarily serve--e.g. to seduce the opposite sex, but that is a separate issue). If I am not capable of observing the opposite sex act in a way appropriate to that context without being tempted, then I must adapt to that context, either by finding a secluded or unpopular area of the beach, or I should just not go to the beach at all. But I cannot go to the beach and expect people to dress out-of-context for the sake of my weakness.
posted on Sep 18, 2007 - 01:36 PM
From lowlyman:iqbal.
this makes sense to me. perhaps the statement that bothered me on this is:" If she is a source of temptation to you, that is your problem". perhaps b/c it can be taken to extreme.
lowly
Well, to quailify the particular statement that sits uncomfortably with you in light of the context provided in my previous post so as to make my intentions clearer:
"If she, in doing what is proper to the context she is in, particularly when it concerns a "non-iniquitous" context ( we are talking about a beach, not a strip club nor a night club) is a source of temptation to you, it is only reasonable that you adapt to that context in such a way so as to not be vulnerable to such temptation, or avoid that context altogether, for it is your problem to deal with, not hers."
posted on Sep 19, 2007 - 06:24 AM
Sorry...this is a little off topic...Bishoy get the boys at HCOC ready for me this weekend...I coming with a new group of deacons...
Regarding the individual writting the GMAT (I just wrote it on Sept 7 2007)... It really isn't that bad. Make sure you focus on doing full length practice test (CATs) and brush up on the basic Math. You may also consider taking Kaplan or Princetion Review if you find yourself getting easliy distracted. Do you plan on writting in the near future?
Please forgive me for getting involved in your business. I find that networking and talking with people always helps. Should you have questions feel free to contact me at peterfanous@gmail.com
Please do me a favour and pass my regards to Fr.Souriel and Fr.Dawoud. Tell them Peter from Canada says hi. They should know. If look uninterested or confused...Tell them Fr. Samuel relative.
All best on the test,
Peter
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The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Church Choir (HCOC)
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posted on Feb 25, 2008 - 11:45 AM
Aghape all,
I think ill take a different approach here and say that it doesnt matter whether we think its right or not (wearing a bikini that is). in my opinion st paul put it right when he said let all that you do be done for the edification of others and the church.
This means everything. We can always argue and justify our actions and at the end make ourselves feel good. But we are still carrying the burden of making others people fall. even if we think its the right thing for us we have to consider the ones weaker in faith or are new to the faith or are still fighting spiritual battles and that is most of us.
We live in a world where satan uses the smallest seedsof evil and temptation to sow the most distruction.
every forum we see topics like this discussed and we end up justifying everything in worldy ways and logic. abouna anthony messih was right when he said we have watered down christianity.
what happened to "bearing one anothers burdens thus fullfulling the law of Christ". why cant we go a step further as true christians in the early centuries did and suffer just a bit just to prevent someone from falling into lust of temptation. why is it so hard. do we always needs to have our comfort over someone else's fall.
granted its their fault they fall and not ours, but if its through us that they fall then lets rethink about how we go about things (ie wearing bikinis).
_________________
HCOC member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Feb 26, 2008 - 07:42 PM
There is a reason why we fast: disciplining the body and its desires. This is apparently not working for most guys. Why are we discussing whether women should wear swimming suits or not...when this could be time well spent for guys in learning to control their hormones instead. Instead of trying to alter the environment (ie females and what they wear) to best suit your comfort, why not put some effort into fixing how you react to such situations. Why not try to control you eyes yourself instead of controlling what others wear? Why not try to not lust...when these images are present...? What good is to to say "I no longer lust" when all you did is eliminate the images rather than the lusting? Even if you make a point that women should not wear bathing suits...the fact is..they DO! Learn to control your eyes and the outcome of what you see instead.
There is a time and place for everything. In weddings, you wear a suit/dress. On the beach, you wear a bathing suit. This is normal. This is why a woman wearing a bathing suit in a mall seems abnormal, although it is perfectly normal on the beach/pool. This is only logical. Boys, try to walk topless in the mall...how would you feel? Uncomfortable? Probably. Why? Now try to do the same on the beach. How do you feel now? Normal. Why? Because there is a time and place for everything.
So please do not use your frequent and unnecessary lusts to control what others around you do and wear. Instead, spend this time in fasting to discipline your thoughts.
About PeterA's point of helping each other and not making other stumble, I totally agree. However, I must add the following: I cannot go to a bar and argue that drinking is inappropriate. Also, I cannot walk into a club and claim that dancing is inappropriate behavior for the dancers as well as those around them. Likewise, I should not go to a beach/pool if I believe the images I see cause me to lust/stumble.
kapeesh?
posted on Feb 26, 2008 - 09:51 PM
You might want to add that you can't go to a sex store and say that pornography is innappropriate. I disagree with what you have said. As humans we are composed of bodies and mind, and the two must mutually work together to arrive at virtue. Without this combination we arrive at nothing save vice. For everything that our mind does, it does through the body. Even our thoughts are the results of our neurons working in our brains.
So having said that, do I believe it all lies on the girl to dress modestly, like Muslims would have you think? As if Christ came to preach only physical modesty, and that it was not a virtue of the mind that revealed itself in the outwards. However it works both ways, modesty, and self-control are required of every individual. This is not only about leading others into temptation, which is of course wrong, but it is also about being modest and humble.
The responsibility here lies on the two genders equally, the man is in no occasion morally justified in lusting, and the woman is in no circumstance justified in dressing immodestly, or leading others to temptation.
posted on Feb 26, 2008 - 10:19 PM
i dont think it is wrong to wear a swimming suit.. i think sometimes we have different intentions to wear a certain type of swimming suit.. keep ut intentions pure..
as far as dressing in public, if u cant wear it infront of abouna, dont wear it out! simple..
posted on Feb 26, 2008 - 11:16 PM
Sure we've got different standards at different times, but one thing we can never change is modesty. I can go walk out nude at a certain time at a certain place where it can even be considered acceptable, is that okay? Of course not, we have to always be aware of who is around us, dressing modestly, not just hiding behind "it's all relative"
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