Truth.Seeker
posted on Feb 26, 2008 - 02:51 PM
Tony,
I read your post carefully before I replied. The fact that I disagree doesn't mean I didn't understand your post. You didn't even tell me what I misunderstood about your post. That just tells me that you think the mere fact I disagree with you means I misunderstood you. It just means I think you're wrong 
.
What you're saying is nothing short of "taking Route A" means "taking Route B" because you arrive at Destination X in both cases. That's not how logic works. I-80 W is not the same as I-80 E because they will both get you to Sacramento. They are two different roads.
You are required to repent for EVERY non-petty sin you know you have committed (not according to me, according to the most authoritative Copt alive - the Pope). Suicide is one of those sins. These are "deadly" sins that you will not be forgiven for unless you repent of them. Infact, the Coptic Church doesn't pray on a person who has committed suicide for the ONLY reason that that person could not have repented. The only sins you can "get away with" without repenting are what His Holiness calls "petty sins." These are sins you didn't know about, etc...
Again, according to His Holiness, the meaning of the verse is that you will not be forgiven if you PERPETUALLY (note that perpetually means doing an act REPEATEDLY) reject the Holy Spirit. If you want to argue that committing suicide is a rejection of the Holy Spirit, then that is rejecting it at a SINGLE time (time of the suicide).
In that regard, committing ANY sin is a rejection of the Holy Spirit at a SINGLE time. We know we can be forgiven for these sins, that means this is not the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Christ was talking about. Therefore, the premise for telling me that suicide means blasphemy of the Holy Spirit fails.
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What the Pope wrote on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:
Question:
The verse that says "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven " (Matt. 12:31)
alarm me very much. Sometimes I think that I committed the sin of blasphemy so I fall into despair. Please explain the meaning of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? And how is that there is no forgiveness eitherin this age or in the age to come? How does this unforgiveness coincide with the mercy of God and His many promises?
Answer:
All your fears are temptations from the devil to make you fall into despair so be comforted.
As for the meaning of the blasphemy against the Spirit and the sin that is without forgiveness, this, with the grace of God I shall explain to you.
The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not the unbelief in the Holy Spirit or His Divinity or His work and it is not insulting of the Holy Spirit. If the atheists believe, God forgives them for their unbelief and their mockery of God and His Holy Spirit. All those who followed Macedonius in his heresy and his denial of the Divinity of the Holy Spirit, when repented the church accepted, them and forgave them.
What then is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? And why there is no forgiveness for it?
The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the complete and continuous refusal of any work of the Spirit in the heart which is a life time refusal.
As a result of this refusal, man does not repent and accordingly God does not forgive him.
God in His mercy accepts every repentance and forgives as He said, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37) and the saints were correct in their saying: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out".
There is no sin without forgiveness except that without repentance.
So if a person dies in his sin without repentance, he will perish as the Lord said "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish " (Luke 13:5).
(My Note: in this respect suicide is like doing any other sin and dying while doing it. No chance of repentance.)
Then non repentance till death is the only sin that is without forgiveness. If the matter is so, that brings up a question:
What is the relation between lack of repentance and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Obviously, a person cannot repent without the work of the Spirit in him. For the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of sin (John 16:8.) and lead the person in the spiritual life and encourage him. He is the power that aids in every good work.
Without the communion of the Holy Spirit, no one can accomplish any spiritual work.
So the refusal of the communion of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 13:14) absolutely can not produce any good. For all the works of righteousness the apostle had put under the title "fruit of the Spirit" (GaL 5:22). That person without any fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matt. 3:10) & (John 15:4-5).
He who refuses the Spirit, will not repent, and will not bring forth any spiritual fruit.
If his refusal of the Spirit is a complete and life long refusal, then he will spend all his life without repentance, without works of righteousness and without fruit of the Spirit, so of course he will perish. This is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
It is not that the person grieves the Spirit (Eph. 4:30) or quenches the Spirit (1Thess. 5:19) or resists the Spirit (Acts 7:51) but it is the complete and persistent refusal of the Spirit. So he would not repent and would not have fruits in a righteous life.
Here we are faced with a question:
What if a person refuses all works of the Spirit then turns back and accepts Him and repents?
We say that his repentance and acceptance of the Spirit even just before the end of his life, is an indication that the Spirit of God still works in him and led him to repentance. Then his refusal of the Spirit was not complete and not life long. A case like this is not a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit according to the definition mentioned before.
To fall into a sin that has no forgiveness is a form of a war of the devil against us to make us fall into despair which will destroy us, make us depressed; and that does not help us in any spiritual work.
To the person that asked the question I say: the mere asking of the question is an indication of your concern about eternal fate. This is not blasphemy against the Spirit.
Now we need to answer the last part of the question.
How does this unforgiveness coincide with the mercy of God?
God is always ready to forgive and nothing prevents His forgiveness, but the important thing is that the person repents to deserve forgiveness.
If the person refuses repentance, God waits for his repentance till the uttermost breath of his life, as happened with the thief at the Lord's right hand. If the person refuses to repent all his life and refuses the work of the Spirit in him till the time of his death then he not God-blessed be His name would be responsible for the perishing of his soul.
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What the Pope wrote on praying for the deceased:
Question:
Can a Christian who dies in a state of sin enter the kingdom of heaven? I don't see how he can. So what is the use of praying for someone who has died when we don't know whether he has died in a state of sin or repentance?
Answer:
We don't have to pray for someone who has died whilst sinning. Prayer will not benefit him, and our master St John said:
"There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that." (1 John 5:16).
If a thief climbs up the walls of a house in order to burgle it, and falls down and dies in the process, the Church would not pray for him. And if drug smugglers get into a fight with the police and get killed during this fight, the Church does not pray for them either. And if a person who has an intelligent mind and commits suicide, the Church does not pray for him.
(My Note: notice how Pope Shenouda lumps up suicide in the same category as any other sin you die while committing).
Therefore, if the Church can be sure that the person has died whilst in the act of committing a sin, it doesn't pray for him.
But in other cases, it would certainly pray for someone who had died, so that he could at least depart from the world having been absolved by the Church, so that he is no longer bound in any way. That person is then left to the mercy of the One who searches men's hearts and the One who knows all secrets.
It is as if the Church is saying to God: this person has been released from our side by the authority to loose and bind which You gave to us (Matt. 18:18; John 20:23), and so we leave him now to Your mercy and to Your knowledge which is beyond ours.
The Church also prays on behalf of the one who is passing on, for him to be forgiven any sins which he may have committed which weren't of the degree that leads to death, according to the instruction of the apostle.
As an example of this St. John said: " If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. " (1 John 5:16-17)
So what are these sins that do not lead to death?
They are uncompleted sins, sins that have not been fully carried out. They may be sins of ignorance, sins committed unintentionally, or sins that are latent, or sins of negligence, for example.
We pray in the Trisagion saying:
[Forgive, absolve and pardon us, O God, for the wrongs we have done intentionally, those we have done knowingly, and those we have done unknowingly, the secret and the open.]
But unintentional sins, sins of ignorance and unseen sins are nevertheless still sins (because they violate God's commandments and require forgiveness and prayer).
In the Old Testament, we see that even in the case of sins committed unintentionally without knowing, as soon as one became aware, one had to offer a sacrifice so that they might be forgiven. (Lev. 4:2,13,22-23).
The Church prays that the Lord would forgive any of these sins of ignorance or of negligence, or any sins committed unintentionally and unknowingly, which those who have passed over might have committed.
The Reciter says in the psalm: "Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. " (Ps. 19:12) It is for these hidden faults which the person is not aware of having, that the Church asks forgiveness on his behalf.
Let us suppose that a person has died suddenly without having had a chance to confess, or that he has forgotten to confess some sins, and therefore hasn't received an absolution for them. The Church can give him absolution and asks forgiveness for him, in the Prayer for the Departed.
The Church, therefore, prays for the sake of the departed out of a kind of compassion, because no-one is without sin, even if his life on earth lasts only one day (and this is a phrase which comes in part of the Prayer for the Departed).
David said: "If You, O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord who could stand? But with You there is forgiveness... " (Ps. 129:3-4) And he also said: " Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no one living is righteous. " (Ps. 143:2) So if this is the situation, that there is no servant without a fault, and no master who is not forgiving, we pray for those who have passed away [Being human beings who put on the body and lived in the world].
We pray for everyone in this state, since only God is good. We ask for forgiveness and then leave the matter to God, always knowing that any human being might perhaps have repented even if it was at the hour of his death.
But for those who have died in the act of committing a deliberate sin, without having repented, we do not pray, since our prayers in these circumstances would be going against God's goodness and justice.
_________
My point is that, although, suicide will get you to the same place that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will, it itself is not that blasphemy. In other words, the verse is just not talking about suicide. That's what I meant when I said because Route A and Route B get you to Destination X, that doesn't mean that Route A and Route B are the same thing.
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A. S.
Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411
