coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 11, 2008 - 07:03 PM

Hey Tony,

If I recall correctly, according to H.H. Pope Shenouda, committing suicide if you're mentally ill will not be counted as a sin against you, (basically, committing any act while you're mentally ill will not count as a sin against you).

My thoughts on "It just occurred to me...how can someone commit suicide and not be mentally ill?" Well, "rationally," how could anyone commit any sin while knowing it's a sin? According to St. Paul (in Romans), when we sin we actually do what we don't want to do because we want to follow God. So, he seems to be suggesting that it's "irrational" to sin altogether.

BUT, in my opinion, there's a vast difference between doing something "irrational," and having a "mental disease." The smartest person in the world can do something irrational (by choice), but a mentally diseased person doesn't have the option of behaving rationally.

My thoughts on "Also, I thought that God does not give us more than we can handle, it seems that these people could not handle what was going on in their lives (i am speaking of those who are considered not mentally ill)." I'm guessing you're referring to the verse (I can't recall where) that says that the devil will not be able tempt us at a level which we cannot handle.

I would use similar reasoning I used above. This applies for all and any sin. I.e. we can overcome the devil every time if we will to (the problem is that our will-power isn't very strong). If you consider suicide to be a sin, then a rational person who commits suicide did not will to fight the devil enough. That is, the person could have fought off the temptation if he/she had turned to God, but he/she did not.

_________________
A. S.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 403

nessa11

posted on Mar 11, 2008 - 07:12 PM

AMoussa,

It wouldn't be considered against the person who is mentally ill, because they can't control their thoughts, it isn't their fault.

"It just occurred to me...how can someone commit suicide and not be mentally ill?"

(feel free to disagree) Anybody with a brain can commit suicide, but part of the difference is whether they've been exposed to the church, and to God. Even people who've had a falling out with the church would understand the enormity of commiting suicide. However everybody faces problems, and sadly sometimes people feel so weighed down and miserable that they feel the only way out is to kill themselves.

" Also, I thought that God does not give us more than we can handle, it seems that these people could not handle what was going on in their lives (i am speaking of those who are considered not mentally ill)."

Can you handle anything without God himself? God doesn't give us anymore than we can handle, BUT we have to rely on HIM to get through it, and take it to him in prayer, meditate on his word, and have faith. For the Non-Mentally Ill people that don't belong to the church, thats there problem. Even people born into the church that don't have that level of spirituality/faith would fall under the same category.

Vanessa +

Joined: Dec 30, 2007 | Posts: 18
Location: † Church of the Virgin Mary and St. Athanasius Mississauga, Canada

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 11, 2008 - 09:45 PM

Hey guys,

I am fully aware that if one were to commit suicide under the affect of a mental disease than it is not counted as suicide per se.

"BUT, in my opinion, there's a vast difference between doing something "irrational," and having a "mental disease." The smartest person in the world can do something irrational (by choice), but a mentally diseased person doesn't have the option of behaving rationally."

Where would you draw the line from "irrational" to "mental disease?" I think knowledge has nothing to do whether or not someone has a mental disease. A great example of this is Professor John Nash. This man is a genuis, yet he is schizophrenic. Maybe it depends on the degree of "irrationality?" If someone for example, were to commit something as drastic as suicide, could that "irrationality" be considered a mental issue? I believe so. Maybe by "rational," you meant someone who knows God and knows God such that they believe they can escape whatever disaster there in. In that case, it would make sense to label this as "irrational."

GB
Tony

_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Joined: Jan 08, 2007 | Posts: 519
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 11, 2008 - 10:21 PM

There's a difference between knowledge and intelligence. When I said "smartest person in the world" I meant someone with good deduction skill.

Committing an "irrational" act doesn't take much, in fact, all of us do it (because it's not rational to sin, as the cost of sinning vastly outweighs the benefits).

In John Nash's case, he is very rational but with a mental disease. (Everything about Game Theory has to do with rationality, and the man developed Game Theory).

So, I don't necessarily think mental disease and rationality are alwaysdirectly related (I earlier said "but a mentally diseased person doesn't have the option of behaving rationally," but there's a better way to convey what I wanted to say).

What I was getting at is if the mental disease does interfere with our ability to reason, to a degree with we cannot overcome, and we commit a sin because of that interference, then it's not counted as a sin against us.

To a point, what we are engaging in is somewhat futile because we can never fully know the state of someone's mind (speaking of Nash: in the language of Game Theory, this is called "unverifiable information").

Of course God will know the extent of the person's mental disease or lack thereof, so, we can always trust in His judgment. But that begs the question - if God is the only One who can truly know someone's mental condition, why does the Church proceed to make a judgment on that condition and not pray on those it deems "intelligent suiciders?"

(Note that "intelligent" means you can reason while "irrational" means you can't. Also note that an "intelligent" person can do something "irrational." The difference between that and not being able to reason, is that the intelligent person has a choice in the matter.)

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 403

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 01:14 AM

What i meant to say in my previous post was "intelligent" instead of "knowledge." That was my mistake.

"Committing an "irrational" act doesn't take much, in fact, all of us do it (because it's not rational to sin, as the cost of sinning vastly outweighs the benefits)."

Yes that is true, but it does take a lot for someone to go and end their life--keeping in mind that they are aware of their actions.

"So, I don't necessarily think mental disease and rationality are alwaysdirectly related (I earlier said "but a mentally diseased person doesn't have the option of behaving rationally," but there's a better way to convey what I wanted to say)."

Yes i agree with you. But my main concern was how it is possible to make the claim that an "intelligent" person was not "mentally ill" if they take their life. Of course when it comes to minor things they are not necessarily directed, but since we are talking about suicide, there may be some sort of connnection.

"What I was getting at is if the mental disease does interfere with our ability to reason, to a degree with we cannot overcome, and we commit a sin because of that interference, then it's not counted as a sin against us."

I agree.

"But that begs the question - if God is the only One who can truly know someone's mental condition, why does the Church proceed to make a judgment on that condition and not pray on those it deems "intelligent suiciders?"

That is a very good question. In fact, it has so much to do with my original question, and i had a feeling that we were going to get here. Perhaps a member of the clergy can help participate in this discussion...

"(Note that "intelligent" means you can reason while "irrational" means you can't. Also note that an "intelligent" person can do something "irrational." The difference between that and not being able to reason, is that the intelligent person has a choice in the matter.)"

Thank you, i already knew that.

GB
Tony

_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Joined: Jan 08, 2007 | Posts: 519
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 03:30 PM

It takes a lot to kill someone else, would you think that rises to the level of irrationality? (I don't think it does, Christ asked the Father to forgive the people who had Him crucified, if there was no sin, there would be no cause for forgiveness). Thoughts?

"Thank you, i already knew that."

It may have come off as if I was trying to point out the definitions, what I meant to say was that in my post that's how I was using those words. Sorry if it came off any other way.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 403

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 04:09 PM

Another interesting discussion is how "helpful" the Church's prayers for us are after we die. Has this been argued on the forums? Should I start a new thread, or should we tie it into our discussion here? Is there any interest in the topic?

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 403