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posted on Nov 26, 2007 - 11:34 PM
Hello,
The second Sunday of this fast will coincide with the 29th of Hatour. In order to get 4 Sundays of Kiahk before Christmas, the Church would normally use this last Sunday of Hatour as the first Sunday of Kiahk, but it so happens that it is also the 29th of the Coptic month....Anyone know what happens in this case?
posted on Nov 27, 2007 - 12:16 AM
Go to this topic ---> http://coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8150.html
posted on Nov 27, 2007 - 02:33 PM
Dear all,
According to the link mikokiko provided, the discussion has been held before. It seems that, on the basis of that discussion, that Kiahk rites will override the 29th of Hatour rites, and hence the latter would be counted as the first Sunday of Kiahk. That is what I inferred, and I hope it makes sense.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
posted on Nov 27, 2007 - 07:05 PM
From Mina Aziz:Hello,
The second Sunday of this fast will coincide with the 29th of Hatour. In order to get 4 Sundays of Kiahk before Christmas, the Church would normally use this last Sunday of Hatour as the first Sunday of Kiahk, but it so happens that it is also the 29th of the Coptic month....Anyone know what happens in this case?
Mina,
I asked His Grace Bishop Youssef (Bishop of the Southern Diocese of the United States) about this issue last week.
His response was the the Kiahk supercedes the 29th of Hator feast. He said the last week of kiahk is the Paramoun feast and therefore we need to take the first 4 weeks, even if the first Sunday happens to be the 29th of Hator.
So we need to celebrate in the Kiahk tune, with Kiahk doxologies, etc. starting from the 29th of Hator (December 9th)
He also said on December 9th through the 30th (9th, 16th, 23rd, and 30th) we should celebrate these 4 weeks as the kiahk (7&4). then Saturday the 5th of January is the Paramoun.
Hope this helps!
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
posted on Nov 28, 2007 - 07:55 AM
But why? Why isn't the feast prayed on January 8th? It makes no sense whatsoever. The Commemoration of the 29th of each Coptic month is always festal and is celebrated on the 29th of the Coptic month ALWAYS. If we prayed Christmas on the 28th of the month, then why do we even celebrate on the 29th of each month? 29th of Kiahk, regardless of the Gregorian Calendar, is the Feast of Nativity. Why are we changing our Coptic rights, changing our calendar to celebrate on the 28th of Kiahk? We are supposed to pray on the Coptic Calendar, not the worldy calendar. We are not of the world. If this is the case, then everything should be pushed up one Coptic day. The feast of St. Mina, which was on sunday, was prayed on the 25th of November, but usually it is prayed on the 24th. We changed it because we go according to the Coptic Calendar. Well why is this feast any different?
I apologize if I am coming off too strong. I really want to understand the logic and why people can't just pray it on the 8th like rites support.
posted on Nov 29, 2007 - 11:48 PM
I think it is because people in Egypt are too accustomed to having Jan. 7th as their feast day, and lets be honest people are used to using the Gregorian Calendar to celebrate this day, not very many people are using the Coptic Calendar. Secondly, people in Egypt have just recently been given a day off on Jan. 7th at least in the schools so that they can celebrate it on that day. So I hope that makes sense, I don't think we should be too picky as to which day we celebrate it on, I agree with you it is illogical but there are other priorities that supersede the exact day.
God Bless
posted on Nov 30, 2007 - 01:45 AM
Honestly If you think about other feasts such as the apostles it is always on the 12th no matter what. I don't believe we have ever celebrated the feast of the Nativity on any day except for the 7th. Correct me if I am Wrong. I don't think we can compare a Saint's feast to Christ's feast. I think that the saint is being celebrated no matter what, Christ's birth is a whole different thing, its like saying we are going to change the 4th of July to the 3rd because it is a leap year. It's the sort of thing that the Calendar, (which one we use), really matters in this situation, it is only that we have 4 Sundays in the Month of Kiahk and that is it.
posted on Nov 30, 2007 - 02:58 AM
From mikokiko:I think it is because people in Egypt are too accustomed to having Jan. 7th as their feast day, and lets be honest people are used to using the Gregorian Calendar to celebrate this day, not very many people are using the Coptic Calendar. Secondly, people in Egypt have just recently been given a day off on Jan. 7th at least in the schools so that they can celebrate it on that day. So I hope that makes sense, I don't think we should be too picky as to which day we celebrate it on, I agree with you it is illogical but there are other priorities that supersede the exact day.
God Bless
Celebrating the nativity feast on the Jan 7th is a National Holiday in Egypt. Even the Muslims take that day off. For anyone just come from no where and says no, this year we'll celebrate it the 8th, this will make confusion and many other things. If someone respects you enough by giving you a day off on your feast, than you should be thankful for that......and not to greedy and ask for more.
Therefore our church said, as part of her rites, when the feast comes literally on Jan 8th, you still have the feast on the 7th & the 8th, reading the same reading with the same rites.
posted on Nov 30, 2007 - 03:00 AM
The feast of the apostles is ALWAYS celebrated on the 5th of Apip, and if this year is a leap year, then most likely it will be prayed on the 13th of July this year, since we will not stop fasting a day early.
And fourth of July, as you said, is always prayed on the 4th correct? That is because we are using the GREGORIAN CALENDAR. We don't use another calendar in America, that is why 4th of July is always 4th of July, no matter what because we use this calendar and we celebrate it on this day. That is the logic that we should use in church with the Coptic calendar. We go by the Coptic Calendar, in church services, on things pertaining to church and God. His birth would be one of those times, which is why we should use the 8th of January, or the 29th of Kiahk, as we always celebrate.
posted on Nov 30, 2007 - 03:12 AM
From David_the_King:The feast of the apostles is ALWAYS celebrated on the 5th of Apip, and if this year is a leap year, then most likely it will be prayed on the 13th of July this year, since we will not stop fasting a day early.
And fourth of July, as you said, is always prayed on the 4th correct? That is because we are using the GREGORIAN CALENDAR. We don't use another calendar in America, that is why 4th of July is always 4th of July, no matter what because we use this calendar and we celebrate it on this day. That is the logic that we should use in church with the Coptic calendar. We go by the Coptic Calendar, in church services, on things pertaining to church and God. His birth would be one of those times, which is why we should use the 8th of January, or the 29th of Kiahk, as we always celebrate.
the feast of the apostle is not in any connection with any national holiday in egypt or any where. there is something called respect ya habibi...u can't make it harder for people to understand you, as a believer and a church. and like i said, the church made this PART OF HER RITES, who are you to change that.
posted on Nov 30, 2007 - 08:31 PM
+
Dear all,
Here is a summary we put together regarding this topic:
1. The Feast of Nativity is celebrated on the 29th of Koiak, which usually corresponds to January 7. However, when the Coptic calendar overlaps with a leap year on the Gregorian calendar (such as this year), the days are shifted by one, and so the 29th of Koiak corresponds to January 8. In order to celebrate with the Oriental and Old Calendar churches, the Coptic church keeps her celebration of the feast on January 7, even in leap years, and therefore celebrates the Feast of Nativity on the 28th of Koiak in addition to the 29th.
2. The Paramoune of the Feast of Nativity is defined as "the preserving of the one day," and is a day of strict abstinence fasting (i.e., a day in which we abstain from food) that prepares us for the feast. The Paramoune is usually on the day before the Feast of Nativity, the 28th of Koiak. However, strict abstinence fasting is not allowed on Saturdays and Sundays. If the Feast of Nativity falls on a Sunday, the Church, in her wisdom, in order to keep the fast, celebrates the Paramoune on both Friday and Saturday, with Friday being a day of strict abstinence fasting. If the Feast of the Nativity falls on a Monday, then the Paramoune is celebrated on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, once again with Friday being a day of strict abstinence fasting.
3. The Coptic Church also places great importance on maintaining the four Sunday readings during the month of Koiak, during which we read the entire first chapter of the Gospel according to Saint Luke. There are years when the Paramoune of the Nativity is the fourth Sunday, and so the readings of the Paramoune would trump the readings of the fourth Sunday. In order to avoid this, the Church will borrow the last Sunday of the previous month of Hathor, and consider it to be the first Sunday of Koiak, so that the readings of all four Sundays are preserved. This can happen in two situations:
Non-leap year, when the Paramoune of the Nativity falls on a Sunday
Sunday, 30 Hathor
Sunday, 7 Koiak
Sunday, 14 Koiak
Sunday, 21 Koiak
Sunday, 28 Koiak
Leap Year, when the Paramoune Falls on a Sunday (because the Feast of Nativity is celebrated on the 28th of Koiak (January 7))
Sunday, 29 Hathor
Sunday, 6 Koiak
Sunday, 13 Koiak
Sunday, 20 Koiak
Sunday, 27 Koiak
This second situation is what is happening this year. Therefore, the last Sunday of Hathor is treated as the First Sunday of Koiak, in terms of the Church's tunes, hymns, responses, and readings. The Syanaxarion for the 29th of Hathor will still be read, however.
I should also mention that once February 29, 2008 rolls around, the corresponding dates between the Coptic calendar and the Gregorian calendar will be as usual. Therefore, the feast and saints days for the rest of the year will be what we are used to (for instance, the Feast of the Lord's Entry into Egypt will be June 1 and not June 2; the Feast of Saint Peter and Saint Paul will be July 12 and not the 13th, etc.).
Also, although this year is 1724 A.M. on the Coptic calendar, the leap year is actually 1723 A.M. So, September 11, 2007 corresponded with the 6th day of the Little Month, the last month of the Coptic Year, which normally has 5 days. This is what causes all the days to be shifted by one until February 29 on the Gregorian calendar which readjusts the correspondence between the calendars.
I hope this makes sense.
God bless.
posted on Dec 01, 2007 - 12:55 AM
Abahoor, what are you talking about? There are somethings called rites, as you have stated, which is what I am NOT questioning. The RITES say the feast of the apostles is on Apip 5 and Christmas is on Kiahk 29. Why are we not keeping these days? That is my question, so before you start making allegations on this site, read what I am trying to ask. It is for knowledge "ya habibi" and I am wondering why we aren't keeping 'taqs.'
Back to a more serious topic, aaboseif, thank you very much for that post. This site appreciates helpful posts like that. My question still remains, why not the 29th of Kiahk? Why the 28th? That's my only question.
_________________
David_the_King
Co-Webmaster and Administrator
coptichymns.net
http://www.coptichymns.net/
posted on Dec 01, 2007 - 03:26 AM
From David_the_King:Abahoor, what are you talking about? There are somethings called rites, as you have stated, which is what I am NOT questioning. The RITES say the feast of the apostles is on Apip 5 and Christmas is on Kiahk 29. Why are we not keeping these days? That is my question, so before you start making allegations on this site, read what I am trying to ask. It is for knowledge "ya habibi" and I am wondering why we aren't keeping 'taqs.'
Back to a more serious topic, aaboseif, thank you very much for that post. This site appreciates helpful posts like that. My question still remains, why not the 29th of Kiahk? Why the 28th? That's my only question.
what i have said before and what aaboseif just stated is part of the church rites with connection with what you've said, having the feast of the 29th of kiahk
posted on Dec 01, 2007 - 06:22 AM
+
Dear David_the_King,
The key to the date of the Feast of Nativity is remembering that we celebrate on January 7 (even if it corresponds with the 28th of Koiak), because the other Oriental/Old Calendar Orthodox Churches, who do not use the Coptic Calendar, celebrate the feast on January 7.
God bless.
posted on Dec 01, 2007 - 04:18 PM
This is what H.G. Bishop Youssef has said about this case:
“Yes, this year we will celebrate the feast of Nativity on January 7 and 8 because the coptic year of 1723 was a leap year. So when you add this extra day to the days of pregnancy that started on Paremhotep 29 (the feast of annunciation), the Nativity feast will be Koiahk 28 but since the original day was Koiahk 29, so we celebrate both days.”
posted on Dec 02, 2007 - 11:24 PM
From Meghalo05:So, all of you next sunday's perspective churches will be chanting the Kiahk rites, not the festal rites of the 29th? Correct? This is the correct way? Want to hear what all you guys think!
Blessed Advent
Yes. that is the correct way.
Also if you think about it, if you pray 29th rite, you'll be reading the Annunciation gospel….which is going to be read in the third Sunday of Kiahk anyway.
posted on Dec 05, 2007 - 02:01 PM
Dear all,
Please clear this up for me. Aaboseif said that we are going to follow the synexarium for the 29th of Hatour; does that mean we will follow the readings as well? or will it be the first Koiak Sunday readings? If it is the former, then as said before the annunciation gospel will be read twice in Koiak. Please explain this to me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
posted on Dec 05, 2007 - 05:02 PM
From ophadeece:Dear all,
Please clear this up for me. Aaboseif said that we are going to follow the synexarium for the 29th of Hatour; does that mean we will follow the readings as well? or will it be the first Koiak Sunday readings? If it is the former, then as said before the annunciation gospel will be read twice in Koiak. Please explain this to me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
The 29th of Hathor (December 9th) we celebrate the Kiahk and not the 3 feasts (feast of resurrection, nativity, and transfiguration). The readings for the 29th of Hathor can be found here http://suscopts.org/readings/2007/dec/09/. As you can see that it's the story of Zacharias the priest being told of the birth of a son and the birth of St. John the Baptist.
Hope this helps, God bless you.
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
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