coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

Meghalo05

posted on Dec 16, 2007 - 06:16 AM

Blessed Kiahk,

I was wondering if any of you all could direct me to any church father sayings/quotes regarding the usage of cymbals or instruments in Church. I heard from some that some Church Fathers were against the usage of instruments such as St. John Chrysostom and others (I could be completely wrong!). But if anyone has any quotations from the Fathers regarding the presence of instruments or the cymbals in the Church that would be great. Preferably those quotes which endorse the usage of them in church.

God bless

_________________
Abraham Ghattas

Joined: Jan 18, 2005 | Posts: 299
Location: St. Mary and St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church of Indianapolis, IN

Ekesmarowt

posted on Dec 17, 2007 - 02:31 PM

Hi,

I don't have any quote from church fathers but I have one from the Bible

Praise him with the sound of the trumpet.. Praise him with the psaltery and harp.. Praise him with the timbrel and chorus.. Praise him with strings and organs.. Praise him with resounding cymbals
Psalm 150

Hope this helps[/b]

Joined: Dec 17, 2007 | Posts: 5

Biboboy

posted on Dec 17, 2007 - 02:56 PM

Agape,

Read this: http://www.copticheritage.org/PagEd+ind ... -749.phtml

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 720

Meghalo05

posted on Dec 17, 2007 - 06:53 PM

From skimming through the article I understand the overall stance of the church regarding instruments and cymbals per se. I also know that the reason for the elimination of instruments in the early church was due to the fact we would be Judaizing Christianity and also because many heathen cults used instruments. From what I have read many well renowned church fathers were against their usage, such as St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Clement of Alexandria, etc. But, there were no church fathers that thought that church instruments might be a benefit perhaps? Or there are none that noted their presence in the early church? Would love to hear you guys' thoughts and any quotes from the fathers. This was a discussion that a couple of deacons in my church had with one of our head deacons, so I would love to get some more info!

Blessed Advent

Joined: Jan 18, 2005 | Posts: 299
Location: St. Mary and St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church of Indianapolis, IN

David_the_King

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 07:41 AM

From my observations, the main use of the cymbal is to keep harmony and order. If someone is in the back and there is no microphone and a hymn is being chanted by the deacon in the front, it is near impossible to follow the deacon leading in the front. Everyone will be off, people in the back and the people in the front. But when the cymbals are being played, then the congregation easily follows the cantors in the front. I noticed this. I was in the altar taking communion because I did not dress deacon once and outside the deacons were saying Psalm 150 and I could not really hear them and was not able to chant along. But the moment someone started playing the cymbals, I could easily follow. The rhythm of the cymbals keeps everyone on the same page and tells everyone where they should be in the hymn. It's kind of hard to explain fully what I mean, but basically everyone can follow the cymbals. When the cymbals are slow, the hymn is too. The cymbals that are faster, makes the hymn much faster. When the cymbals are off, it is noticeable.

Another thing pertaining to the cymbals is it uplifts the congregation. I, for one, can say that I would much rather sing Psalm 150 or Tai shory (or any hymn that could be played with the cymbals) with the cymbals. When the cymbals are not played, for example, on Tai shory, it is slow and kind of boring. When the cymbals jumps in, it makes everyone sing louder, follow better, and sing more enthusiastic. This is my observation. I always sing with my heart more when the cymbals are played. It brings a nice rhythm to the hymn, especially when the cymbals are played nicely and with a nice tune. I am totally for cymbals being played in different tunes, different speeds according to the hymn. Some hymns are chanted slow, like Semoti, so the cymbals in "double speed" sound much better. My church is very advanced in cymbals playing, as we have some people who can play slow or double speed, and in different tunes. I think that these are gifts and talents that God gives people and they use it to their ability to praise God with it.

I hope I made sense

_________________
David_the_King
Co-Webmaster and Administrator
coptichymns.net
http://www.coptichymns.net/

Joined: Nov 04, 2002 | Posts: 835
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California

Ekesmarowt

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 08:34 AM

Yes I agree with David_the_king:

The usage of cymbals does really uplift the rhythm and makes the hymn much more vibrant.
However i am not really a fan of other instruments in the church like the guitar or other "modern" instruments because i think it would clash with traditional coptic hymns.

Joined: Dec 17, 2007 | Posts: 5

Pharaoh

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 01:13 PM

It is all too easy to strike the cymbals inappropriately, however. There has been a recent trend for very elaborate and ornate playing of the cymbals. Frankly, I find it quite distracting and bordering on inappropriate. It detracts from the beauty of the hymn and places the focus on the instrument. Additionally, one of the popular rhythms very closely resembles secular middle eastern drum beats. Frankly, I have never heard this type of rhythm when I listen to older liturgies or recordings of the great cantors and their choruses which leads me to conclude that this is a recent trend and one which may have been influenced by secular rhythms. Remember, our hymns and their associated rhythms are meant to move the spirit not the body. I am also aware of bishops who have stopped deacons while they were playing the cymbals for this very reason.

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 142

jydeacon

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 02:05 PM

I agree with David_the_King in that the cymbals uplift the spirit of the hymn and of course helps in the rythm and beat of the hymn and keeps the whole congregation on the same page. But i don't think there is a set way to playing the cymbals, i have heard and played around 5-6 different ways to play the cymbals.depending on the hymn being sung and the general speed of the hymn i decide on which rythm to play, but i must disagree with Pharoah that it distracts people. Now i'm sure it does distract some that aren't already focused but for those that focus it helps a lot. and yes i do think that the rythms resemble that of arabic rythms but i don't think that is really a big deal. i don't think it is possible to play the cymbals the way the originally were played.

Joined: Jan 16, 2007 | Posts: 136

mikokiko

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 02:05 PM

Pharaoh I agree with you, even though I myself fall into the same mistake sometimes disregarding the true beauty of the hymn and the way it was meant to be said.

Meghalo, I think the Church Fathers were against the use of any musical instruments in the Church because it could easily play with people's emotions, which again is not something very characteristic of traditional Orthodox chant. It is very beautiful, but it does not play with emotions. However if you are to go out and attend any Protestant churches now adays, there is no problem in them playing with instruments and letting their emotions run thoroughly through them. It was because the Church Fathers witnessed these things amongs the heathen who would worship like this. Rather, they themselves being immensely driven and inspired by the Spirit were lead to rid the Church of these things and to leave it with very simple chants that are immensely serene in nature. That is why it is and should be very uncharacteristic for us to shout during the hymns, or us to play the cymbals in a manner that ruins her spirit (Clashing it too hard).

Second of all, many people will quote Psalm 150 to prove that God has nothing wrong with playing instruments. I am not so sure that playing instruments even in worship, are wrong in and of themselves, as St. Paul said: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." I think it is very clear from the Psalm that David the prophet was using metaphors to praise God in poetry.

I understand it is very difficult to see where these fathers are coming from, but we must first acknowledge their deep spirituality. People like St. Clement of Alexandria who band the elaborate Chromatic scale, and all instruments from the Church, did so because they would 'play' with people's emotion, which they did not believe is characteristic of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit moves inside us in a way much more internal and deeper than that. This is why many people who are used to this kind of emotional and charismatic worship can be easily brought to and fro, not like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Some monasteries reached great heights were they even banned chanting all together because they felt still that it would control the people's emotions. However I believe the Church in her wisdom saw a line of moderation. Similar to, but not synonymous, to her advocacy of abstinence from alcohol. That is, we are most certainly prevented from getting drunk because we come under the power of alcohol. Therefore, the fathers felt the need to band these instruments by preventing the emotional play on people, so that they would live the essence of this verse:
"With the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
In this manner one may not be brought under the power of emotions.

I understand that there will be a lot of disagreements, and I am willing to change my mind.

God Bless

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 954

Remnkemi

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 04:59 PM

Let me add a few things.

First, only the Old Testament speaks of musical instruments in liturgical worship. I believe King David reached such a high spiritual level that everything musical elevated him to God because he was a musician. Just like dancing. To King David, he danced in front of the Temple and he was lifting his soul in worship. His dancing was filled with spiritality, not sensuality. Nowadays, try dancing to music spiritually and not sensually. It is nearly impossible to 99.99999% of the people. Musical instruments and dancing became integral in Jewish worship. However, we do not hear of anything in the New Testament and the many fathers wrote against using musical instruments in liturgical worship. Take a look at this site .

I believe there is a reason change. In the Old Testament, music was integral to Jewish worship because of King David. But as time went on, the use of musical instruments became equivalent to secular music. Instruments were used in feasts and homes. The church fathers insisted that liturgical worship must be holy, separated from secular practice. This is also indirectly reinforced by the lack of scripture in the New Testament. In the West, the organ was introduced into liturgical music as early as the 7th century. In the East, musical instruments were not used, except in certain jurisdictions. The Coptic church used simple percussion instruments, like cymbals and triangles (which started in the 10-11th centuries as seen by artificats in the Coptic Museum). And I think the Syrian Orthodox church also uses cymbals. The Greek church doesn't use instruments (someone correct me if I"m wrong). Nearly all the Eastern Orthodox, both Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian use simple instruments or no instruments at all. While the Catholic church only uses an organ.

Now if you're asking if the Coptic church should use musical instruments today, I think the "semi-official" answer would be to use only simple instruments to harmonize and set the tempo for the hymns (which is what some people have already mentioned here). But it's a fine line to cross between harmonizing hymns for spiritual benefit and falling into a non-spiritual, emotionaly-stimulating, almost carnal response to music (which is completely inappropriate for liturgical worship)

George

Joined: Apr 07, 2003 | Posts: 667
Location: Boston, MA USA

AMoussa01

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 05:41 PM

I think i will play devil's advocate for a moment. I have a question and comment for mikokiko and pharoah. You both seem to be on the same side here, regarding the use of instruments in the church because of the fact that it can "play to peoples emotions." I find this answer quite strange. Are not the hymns there to show our worship and praise to God?

What im trying to say is that, during the feasts, all our hymns are joyful and they cause us to feel happy. The same goes for the passion week, where the hymns are very slow and reflect on Christs' sacrifice, which make the people feel sad and repentant. Basically the point of these hymns were to praise and lift up our spirits to God, and this of course has very much to do with how we feel emotionally as i have mentioned above. So in that case, why not ban the hymns as well? Do not get me wrong though, i do not think it is proper to distract the people by playing the cymbals loudly and trying to get attention. I would just like to hear your thoughts...

GB
Tony

_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Joined: Jan 08, 2007 | Posts: 484
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California

mikokiko

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 06:36 PM

I see what you are saying AMoussa, but I think there is a distinction that we should be aware of here. The tunes of they beautiful hymns themselves are not what cause us to be sad or happy, it is by our understanding of the Holy Scriptures and our relationships with Christ that we become sad, and the tunes are composed in a way to accompany these feelings and set the atmosphere not vice versa. In other words, what I am trying to say is, it is our mind that comes first, so that the body might be in subjection. That is as long as our minds are in control of our bodies and our sensations there is nothing wrong with adopting emotions themselves in liturgical worshipin the form of hymns and so forth.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that we should not be cynical of emotions, but at the same time we should not let them govern how we worship, rather let the mind be in control. This is why it is never correct to say that emotions in worship is WRONG. As if emotions, or anything in this life is inherently sinful. Nothing is inherently sinful not even violence, or sex. Its not that black and white. That is why the Church has stayed away from saying anything is sinful like alcohol. Rather it is the control of alcohol of our own bodies that is sinful, when our minds are not in control. That is why it is not sinful in and of itself to eat meat or dairy products, as if we were to call such foods unlawful like our Muslim brothers, but it is gluttony, and the loss of self-control which we strive to keep in our fasting.

One of the greatest things I think Christianity has brought and preached to the world is the concept of Moderation, as St. Augustine said: "To many, total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."

This is why at the turn of the twentieth century the temperance movements were originally aimed at gaining temperance in drinking of alcoholic beverages, but soon became complete prohibition in many countries like the United States. The Catholic philosopher G.K. Chesterton called it "an intemperate denunciation of temperate drinking."

And therefore we are in accordance with what St. Paul says: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

God Bless

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 954

David_the_King

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 06:39 PM

Also I would like to add that many priests play the cymbals. Not just play the cymbals, but are experts in playing the cymbals and can play in the "double speed" tune. I feel that yes, sometimes, the cymbals can be a distraction, but truly if the cymbals are removed, church would be somber and slow. The use of cymbals in almost any hymn sounds better and it uplifts me much more. It keeps the chanters in a rhythm, even when the hymn does not require it. Often times when my church chants Psalm 150 festal in the long melismatic tune, the cymbals are played, not in a loud way, but quietly keeping the chanter or chanters in a nice steady pace.

Believe me, when I hear nice cymbals to hymns, most people including myself are in awe of the hymn and to the peak of beauty that the cymbals help the hymn reach. Niethnos teero is a hymn like that, as well as kata nikhoros (communion). When the cymbals are being played, it shows the hymns in its highest beauty and we are praising God with our talents and glorifying him the best way we can. Basically, we go all out to praise him.

I hope that also made sense.

Joined: Nov 04, 2002 | Posts: 835
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California

David_the_King

posted on Dec 18, 2007 - 06:43 PM

Also, a side note, why can't we praise God with our emotions? Often times, people want to cry during worship, which Pope Kyrollos was accustomed to doing. Often times I pray with priests that cry during the liturgy. They are worshiping with their emotions. Why can't people play cymbals the same way? Often times when I am uplifted in a hymn and it is loud and everyone is into it, I play much louder and a more rhythmic pace. Is that wrong?

Joined: Nov 04, 2002 | Posts: 835
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California

jshouk

posted on Dec 19, 2007 - 10:37 PM

"Nowadays, try dancing to music spiritually and not sensually. It is nearly impossible to 99.99999% of the people"

I havent read the whole thing but, 2 things came to my mind while reading.. the first is the quote above, and the second is the constant reference to the Old Testament vs the New Testament

For the first point can we say that it was nearly 99.999% of the people in Moses' time would be just as tempted as we are when it come to dancing and music? So when Miriam danced with timbrel in her hands, ppl couldve easily gotten tempted, but when truly we are praising like she was, focused in prayer, Satan can't rly tempt you, he cant get through your prayer. So, if timbrels were a mean to prayer at the time, then it should still be now,

This leads me to the second point. Why do we constantly refer to the Old and New Testament as totally different parts of the Bible. As if the Old was just for Jews and the New for us. Its all written by God Old and New Testament, no? Im not to sure by I believe i read in one the Pope's books something along those lines...
Anyways, i hope i didnt stray to much from the topic...
God Bless
John

Joined: Jan 29, 2006 | Posts: 18

Cephas

posted on Dec 20, 2007 - 01:00 AM

+ Iryny nem `hmot>

From jshouk:
This leads me to the second point. Why do we constantly refer to the Old and New Testament as totally different parts of the Bible. As if the Old was just for Jews and the New for us.

I couldn't agree more with this. The Old and New are one. That being said (and at the risk of the ensuing firestorm that may arise)

From jshouk:
Its all written by God Old and New Testament, no?

I'm going to say no. The Old and New Testaments were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus, I would not say that God Himself wrote it. This (I feel) is the type of 'nit-picking' that, as my good friend exGreek would say, is not necessarily a bad thing. Although I'm sure this will cause some sort of division.

_________________
Cevac ¨
<ere peniwt Abba Paule pimenrit `nte P=,=c

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
-- Philippians 4:13

"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"
-- Mark 9:24

"Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."
-- Jeremiah 29:12-13

Joined: Aug 06, 2004 | Posts: 612
Location: St. Paul the Anchorite Coptic Orthodox Church, London, Ontario

Remnkemi

posted on Dec 20, 2007 - 01:46 AM

JShouk,

Read my post again. If you look in the Bible, there is no spiritual reference to the spirituality of musical instruments or dancing other than passages pertaining to David (and some passages of dancing by Miriam, Aaron's sister). But as I said before, this is a high spiritual control level. After King David (I specifically said "From that time one), dancing and musical instruments became signs of sinful and sensual actions. For example, the Jews danced in front of the golden calf in the Books of Exodus or Herodias dancing for King Herod. Music and dancing is not intrinsically sinful. But cultrally, musical instruments and dancing has become secular, even for the Jews during Moses' time all the way to Jesus' time. How then can liturgical music be holy and separated from the secular, if we introduce secular activities into the liturgy?

Regarding the NT vs. OT. Again, read it again. I never said that there was a difference in the two testaments or that the OT pertains to the Jews and the NT pertains to us. Far from it. All I said was that there are no references in the NT about musical instruments. Experience has shown that most people do not have the spiritual level to differentiate musical instruments and dancing from spiritual use of music and dance. That is why many of the Church fathers rejected the idea of their use in liturgical services. How can we make liturgical worship holy and separate from secular practice if we introduce secular actions into liturgical worship?

George

Joined: Apr 07, 2003 | Posts: 667
Location: Boston, MA USA

jshouk

posted on Dec 20, 2007 - 03:45 PM

Hi George,

You raise good points. I guess the fact that you talked about no references in the NT just gave me an impression that we're seperating it from the OT.

I agree that music and dancing have become signs of sinful and sensual actions. Yet, in my opinion, these can still be used in a pure and a good way. Again, this is my opinion, i believe, that the devil will fight every good and holy thing and use it in terrible ways. So, i'd like to argue (in a good way ) bout what u said:

"How then can liturgical music be holy and separated from the secular, if we introduce secular activities into the liturgy? "

I'd like to look at it the other way around, music and cymbals can still keep their holiness if we don't use them in a secular way. When playing cymbals, we're not bringing a secular activity into the liturgy but were using it in a good way. I've personally always loved the passage of Myriam the sister of Aaron when she took timbrels in her hands and said"Let us sing to the Lord for he has triumphed gloriously." Its a beautiful sign of praise and we should have the blessing of using it. Moreover, i dont really see how cymbals can lead you to a sense of music and dancing sensually. I agree that it can become a distraction especially with the different ways being played, but its really just a simple beat...

And not rly familiar with the church fathers sayings, do all the fathers who comment this this disagree with its use?

John

Joined: Jan 29, 2006 | Posts: 18

pavly

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 12:06 AM

I believe the Church Fathers didn't not want to use any instruments in Church, but want us to actually use one instrument and that is the vocals!

The Church Fathers understood from the beginning that we are offering something to God, and the only thing we possess is our voice. We don't possess instruments, they don't belong to us. So it's normal they advocated more the vocals than instruments. And that's to be applied in all our services (Liturgy, Tasbeha, sacraments, etc). Of course, there's nothing wrong in using instruments if you are doing a CD, but not for during services. That is because we are offering a sacrifice of praise, offering our voice to God.

For those who use Psalm 150 as their basis for supporting the use of instruments, I think I heard somewhere it was more of a symbolic meaning (I'm trying to find the reference).

The use of cymbals is only for giving the rhythm, and I have to disagree that it uplifts the hymn. If you need cymbals to uplift the hymn, then probably the people saying it are not "spiritually convincing"...On its own, the hymn should be able to satisfy you spiritually, not to depend on the cymbals to do so.

By the way, haven't we already debated about all this in a previous forum post??

Pavly

Joined: Feb 10, 2003 | Posts: 331
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada

pavly

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 12:23 AM

Let me quote from Dr Ragheb Moftah's book, "Coptic Music":

"Although the temple's music was instrumental, the synagogue's music was vocal.. So, when the first christians became independent, they took their musical rites from the synagogue and used only vocal singing.. Composers & Readers who left Judaisme & believed in Christianity used to have the same job in Christianity.. So, Psalms were chanted exactly the same way they were sung in synagogues..
As the early Jerusalem's Church the music was vocal in all Oriental & western churches.. Also, it used the same Jewish way of psalm chanting in most cases as the Jewish Christian church.. That what was said by fathers: Apostles did transmit something from the Jewish dogmas & traditions to all lands.."

and,

"The best instrument ever is the human's voice. People used vocal music since their very early existence on earth. It has no substitute."

and,

"Until today, many traditional Church music is only vocal among which Coptic, Greek & Syrian.. Above mentioned Scientists and many others advised to preserve it. They said it is the biggest crime to try playing it on musical instruments for it was designed for human's voices.. Playing it on strings gives poor, cut performance which does not represent by any way the hymn itself.. Playing it on Piano (or keyboards) requires adding harmony which also is not appropriate and requires us to destroy it's basis & squeleton foundations.. That means destroying the Church Heritage which is considered one of the most profound Church traditions.. The Greek Church also doesn't use instruments even the Cymbal & Triangle are not used there.."

Joined: Feb 10, 2003 | Posts: 331
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada

David_the_King

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 06:43 AM

Wow great post Pavly, but I still don't feel that it is wrong. Ibrahim Ayad, who plays at liturgies with the highest authority in our church, the pope, plays the cymbals. Pope Shenouda knows most about our church fathers and what they said, yet he allows Ibrahim Ayad to use it. Right? Then I don't see the harm. We must follow hierarchy, and the pope allows it, and the popes main cantor, Ayad, allows it, then we should use it. I believe even M. Mikhail used cymbals so it is ok.

Joined: Nov 04, 2002 | Posts: 835
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California

mikokiko

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 09:33 AM

We're talking about instruments with tone, not percussion. Those are required to keep the rhythm.

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 954

pavly

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 09:05 PM

David, I'm not against the use of cymbals but against the principle that it uplifts the hymn, or that it gives it more "taste". I disagree. These percussion instruments (cymbals and triangle) are there for one purpose only: giving the rhythm.

Using the cymbals for other reasons can become quite disturbing and really massacre the hymn. That's even if you do the "double-speeding" or triple or quadruple-speeding , whatever you want to call it.

And back to the subject of the post, instruments with tone are not allowed in Liturgical services for the reasons mentioned before, that we should offer to God from what we possess.

David, I'm being sarcastic about that double-speeding...don't do it too fast or you'll get a police ticket

Joined: Feb 10, 2003 | Posts: 331
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada

David_the_King

posted on Dec 21, 2007 - 11:51 PM

LOL haha for sure Pavly. Yes I agree with your post now. But again, sometimes cymbals DO uplift the hymn. Yes it should be that way already, but sometimes it helps. Great use of cymbals on a nice festal tune does allow a steady nice flow, which in turn uplifts. Try singing a hymn like kata nikhoros with no cymbals, then play it with the cymbals. There is a difference.

Joined: Nov 04, 2002 | Posts: 835
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony COC Norco, California

pavly

posted on Dec 22, 2007 - 12:14 AM

Seems like I can't convince you...

Joined: Feb 10, 2003 | Posts: 331
Location: St-Mark Montreal, Canada