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posted on Dec 22, 2007 - 02:48 AM
Well I seen this with my own eyes that it uplifts. Abouna at my church goes crazy sometimes with the triangle. It's pretty funny actually and the person with the cymbals does too and Abouna and the congregation and deacons are EXTREMELY uplifted by the cymbals and triangle, especially when they chant 'sabenee hobik' aka amdah fel batool. The cymbals are key to making this hymn sound its best and making it beautiful.
posted on Dec 22, 2007 - 03:12 AM
The beauty you 'get out' of the hymn when one uses cymbals is uncharacteristic of hymns, if it is the highly rhythmic and loud clashing cymbals I think you are talking about. Like Pavly said, it is the Hymn itself, the melody and words, that should do the uplifting, if it is coming externally through cymbals and so forth then the uplifting you are getting from it, I am sorry to say, is wrong. This type of beat and yelling is uncharacteristic of the hymn and is the enemy's way of distracting us from the true spirituality of the hymns and their true internal and serene beauty. The enemy wants us to follow the path that other churches have taken. It is not much longer before we start feeling good by employing a couple of daff and toriantos, and then using instruments outside the church more often that will allow us to use it in the church. This "feel good" wishy washy way of saying hymns will eventually make us no different from other churches, if we do not stop the direction we are taking there.
I think some of the best inspiration for saying hymns peacefully and gently are from the Institute of Coptic Studies, especially their liturgies. From those recordings we learn of the the true way to say hymns, not the high taba2a singing that demands one yell with a group of people with clashing cymbals! Please let's keep the spirit that the Fathers have set for us in saying these hymns and not change it, no matter how much we may not 'like' it.
God Bless
posted on Dec 23, 2007 - 09:26 PM
After all of this beautiful replies I just have to ask. Where did we get the cymbals from? Please as much as you can if someone can give me a website or PM me that would be great.
Thank you all in advance.
_________________
These people draw near to Me with with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips; but their hearts are far from Me. Matt.15:8
For with God nothing shall be impossible.Luke 1:37
posted on Dec 23, 2007 - 10:48 PM
I completely agree with you Pavly and mikokiko. But that is not the case for everyone. Some need the cymbals to uplift and make it sound better. Not everyone is perfect, but some people need a little bit more inspiration than just the words and the tune of the hymn. The cymbals inspire them, and we cannot judge them for that. Different people need different things to bring them to God, some might need beautiful cymbals play to uplift them. It happens. You are right that it shouldn't be that way, but it is. And that is life. Some people are musically inclined and they need the cymbals.
I hope I made sense =)
posted on Dec 24, 2007 - 03:55 PM
From ChristIsMySavior:After all of this beautiful replies I just have to ask. Where did we get the cymbals from? Please as much as you can if someone can give me a website or PM me that would be great.
The cymbals because a part of church because as Israel crossed the Red Sea they sang to the LORD with cymbals. This is how the cymbals became a part of our church tradition.
I have a pdf file for anyone interested in reading about the cymbals and triangle in the church and how they came to be. Anyone is more than welcome to PM their email and I will gladly send them the pdf file. God bless.
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
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posted on Dec 27, 2007 - 08:50 AM
Dear David_the_King,
Pavly and mikokiko make a very good point here, and I have to say I agree with them 100%. I still agree with what you said but only to an extent. As mikokiko clearly said the words and the tune of the hymns themselves should, at least, be the main source of uplifting even to other people who are not deacons. I understand your point that using cymbals as "percussion instruments" help people follow along, and be on the same page, and also when a mic is not used, or people far at the back will need to listen to the rhythm through the cymbals and triangle being played. However, the answer to that is if all the deacons (and I say all) plus most (if not all) of the congregation know the hymns by heart (in an ideal world of course) there will be no need for the cymbals or the triangle. Not that I am against the usage of them; on the contrary, I find them so pleasant, but only to set the rhythm, not to uplift the hymn. In addition to that, I think the presence of one cantor, or a lead deacon is important, as in my opinion what can really uplift hymns is the speed by which they are sung. For example, if you say "taishori" slow with cymbals and triangle, it will be as sweet as saying "taishori" a bit quicker without either. Trust me, if you try it, it is lovely, and more spiritual. I think this depends really on the level the deacons and the cantors are. If they sing the hymns with a rather quick rhythm concentrating on the words, and the melismata which convey the meaning of these words, there is nothing better...
That is why in my opinion the tune and the ambience of the Passion Week is sad; because of this slowness of hymns being sung. You know what? Even the hymn "Iodas" share its music to a great degree with the joyful Watos Psaly; what is the difference? The beat; the rhythm; the speed by which the tune is sung...
I hope this has made some sense...
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
posted on Jan 18, 2008 - 12:56 AM
Pavly you have a point and Miko too, I agree with you guys 99%, BUT David also has a good argument. There's some hymns that just aren't the same when you play them with the cymbals. For example, the hymn ''Niethnos Tiro'' when I listened to Ibo's recording ALONE, I didnt really like it much, but when I listened to the one he was playing the cymbals in the Apostle's Fast with the Chorus, I loved it, it simply Uplifts the hymn and it gives it an interesting rythm. There's lots of hymns that aren't the same when played with the Daff. It's true, sometimes people tend to over use the cymbals, but I feel it's more vivid when we play the Daff in certain hymns. It also helps the other deacons and congregation to know what are the Hazatt coming up, so that they don't mess up. We should all play the cymbals just like Ibrahim, he plays it only to kinda help the chorus know where to stop and stuff. The Quadruple-speeding beat that Pavly talks about makes it look as if the guy playing the Daff was doing Tabla, I hate that cuz it kills the calm beat of the hymn.
Abanoub
posted on Jan 18, 2008 - 01:14 AM
The "deff" should not be what keeps the spirit of the hymns in our church. The thing I keep hearing is that the deff makes everyone start chanting along and gets them into the "mood." But really when you think about it, its not the deff but the people's voices. When everyone begins to chant with rythm and understanding; that is when the hymn takes flight! The deff is there to help keep the rythm and the speed going. What i like so much about HCOC and the HICS is that they're recordings are perfect and do not require the deff at all. Everyone is chanting with a nice, clear, and loud voice which make the hymn(s) sound beautiful! just listen to some of their stuff...
GB
Tony
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HCOC Distant Member
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posted on Jan 18, 2008 - 03:04 PM
Let's try again to discredit the theory that cymbals uplift the hymn:
1) Cymbals are a percussion instrument, meaning it does not give any idea about the tune. You can hit the cymbals in any way, and still no hint about the tune. We all agree on this one.
2) Since they are percussion instruments, therefore any sound-making instrument that is toneless can be used, if we use the argument that it uplifts the hymn. However, you would disagree to use a tabla in church, no? Why would you allow cymbals and not tabla, when tabla would probably uplift more...
3) Therefore, the goal of cymbals is not to uplift, but rather accompany the hymn to give its rhythm and speed.
Remember, David coming into Jerusalem with the ark of covenant, and how he prepared choirs of people and gave the task to some to play cymbals to give the rhythm to the Israelites while they were chanting: no mention of cymbals to uplift them. The fact that God and the Ark of Covenant were among them made them joyous...not the instruments themselves.
Also, I think the Coptic Church put the emphasis on solemnity and respect while praising God, and probably saw that percussion instruments could have lead people to concentrate on them rather than on God.
I wish we had one of the Fathers to explain this better...
Pavly
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