coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 04:31 AM

Also, didnt the church chose muallem mikhail as the primary cantor because of his consistancy, making him our ultimate source when it comes to hymns? I do not think that everything that was different from muallem mikhail is considered "wrong" but the church set him as the source for the sake of unity. I mean, i can make up a mutated version of a hymn, but does that make it authentic? would you guys chant it in your churches?

GB
Tony

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Remnkemi

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 11:47 AM

Peter, I'm sorry you felt I was attacking HCOC. I was going to prefence my entire post by stating that I am not anti-HCOC. I have purchased all the productions and it is my prefernce. I have contributed to their website and I have helped them with linguistic Coptic questions. I'm not attacking their years of work. I just wanted to show how we have forgotten the big picture of Coptic hymnology.

Biboboy, you wrote
We can't worship together as one church in one voice with one mind to the one God if we're divided about our hymns...It's all about prayer!
This is only true within one school of hymns. But are those who abide by a different school of hymns, not praying? Of course they are. If I walk into the Kiahk Midnight Psalmody in Alexandria, is it not foolish for me to say "They are singing the Fourth Hoos wrong." Or if I walk into Midnight Psalmody in the Muharraq monastery, can I say, "They are singing arihoo chasf wrong." No. Coptic hymnology consists of many schools. If we think promoting one school over another is important, then this is how we divide our hymns, not unite them. I would like to add that this is what most cantors do, not only HCOC. They promote their own school of hymns. I pray that someone can finally present all schools of Coptic hymns.

I hope no one is offended. Pray for me.
George

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mzaki

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 12:45 PM

From Remnkemi:If we think promoting one school over another is important, then this is how we divide our hymns, not unite them.

George, I could not possibly agree more.

Coptic hymnology is by nature dynamic, evolutionary, and variable. I wish we would not limit it with our own shortsightedness by blindly adhering to the teaching of one, while at the same time, ostracizing the teaching of another. It's an easy mindset to fall into - I am guilty of it in the way that I learn hymns myself, and in the way that I teach hymns in our parish.

Like George, I have nothing but sincerest appreciation for the efforts and service of HCOC. I have purchased all of their productions as well. At the same time, though, I would like to see the choir become a more globally inclusive project, incorporating the efforts of more knowledgeable cantors and teachers from Egypt and the rest of the world, as is feasible.

God bless your service.

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Biboboy

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 01:37 PM

Agape,

PeterA, there's no question of Remenkimi's service to our choir He's our advisor in many language questions! He was only inquiring about including other schools of music, which is a valid question and needs to be addressed.

Remenkimi, I think what u mention is useful in terms of history, but I'm not sure how that would benefit us now in times of prayer in the church. We're not saying that the other schools are not "prayers" (very much like we don't say that Gregorian music in Latin isn't prayer, and African music isn't prayer - we don't say that!). But what we're aiming for is follow the heirarchy's choice of school and unite the churches around the world. Today, we're in a totally different situation than in the centuries of Coptic history: we have churches outside of the cultural boundaries of Egypt. That's why we need to stick to a school of music and keep those churches in unity with the Mother Church.

Also, a project like that which you ask for is beyond the means of any (current) service. After all, it's taking a while to get the HCOC material that's limited to one school out and used.. imagine how much time (and money) will be required to work on a project that incompasses all of the schools of music. It also won't be so popular, since the majority of people in the church won't find it useful (except for the few handful who are interested in such resources), so it's an unsustainable project... Hopefully, some day, someone might be able to fund such a project and work on it - but at any rate that's beyond the aims of the HCOC.

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"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


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PeterA

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 07:13 PM

Remnkemi,
my apologies. Perhaps i read into what you said too much and didn't take it in the proper context.

Prayers..

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 21, 2008 - 03:45 PM

Can someone from HCOC please post the text (in Coptic) of Ouniatk before and after modification please.

Thanks

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 22, 2008 - 08:55 PM

I got this by listening. I'm sure it may be off but again please forward the original and modified version for us who are less fortunate and don't have the texts. Thanks.

ooniatk nthok o piconi dimas je akchi emeptaio e mpenchi empefreeti. peksayo teerf akshopi nouconi emepsa enti ierosaleem. oucajo nouot akjof emepchois afourpk epiparadisos.

again this is what I was able to get from listening but if possible please post the before and after texts for us.

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 22, 2008 - 08:57 PM

oucaji not oucajo sorry

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 23, 2008 - 04:22 AM

Just dug out the old dalal which has the following text that for the most part coincides with the cantor and HCOC's version from what my ears can tell except for the ........ area.

ooniatk nthok o piconi dimas je ak..........( the dalal has about 10 words here until the next part which I will refrain from typing so as to not confuse the situation, whereas the cantor and HCOC version both have less words and include the words "taio" and "freeti" in some manner) akerpeksayo teerf ekoi `nconi hi pi iah`shsheen `nte ierosaleem. oucaji nouot akjof emepchois afourpk epiparadisos.

Again, input on the ......... area is much appreciated.

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ABasanti

posted on Mar 23, 2008 - 04:03 PM

Here it is written in coptic, i don't know if it will show when i post it so ill write it in coptic english afterwards.... hope this helps...

Coptic:

Wouniatk `n;ok wpiconi dymac je ak6i `m`patio `mpehli 6i `mpefry] `eneh

Pekcyou tyrf akswpi `nouconi qen `pca `nte Ieroucalym oucaji `nouwt akjof `m`P6oic afouorpk epiparadicoc


Coptic English:

Oouniatk nthok opiconi dimas je akchi em ep taio empehli chi empefriti eneh

Pekciou tirf akshopi enouconi khen epca ente Yerousalim oucaji enouoot akgof emepchoic afouorpk epi paradicoc.

If your stuck on some letters let someone who can read coptic help you out on pronounciation.

All the i's are = to the coptic I and H (iota) so pronounce it right!

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 12:19 AM

Thanks Andrew. Just out of curiosity where did the words where I had placed .......... come from?It is completely different than the text I have.

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ABasanti

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 04:08 AM

This is from the original text. Your probably have a book that was translated from the arabic or someone who made the coptic sound "proper" so they added or took out some words which is the case with a lot of books these days, the letters are changed a bit and sometimes the words. You can find this text along with the remaining verses with the Pipnevma tune in Albiers Deacon Service Book 2nd Edition that just came out really a good book, nothing is missing from it enjoy the hymn and god willing you can sing it in your church, it really is a unique and lovely hymn.

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 03:59 PM

Thanks again but the text I have was published by the maktabit beni suef in 1971 which is known to date back to manuscripts. it even has things in coptic like the priests litanies which didn't make the cds.

my question is where did the "akchi mptaio mpehli chi mpefriti eneh" from. I understand it is "original text" from Albiers book but where did that portion come from before that?

1. another book/manuscript
2. oral tradition
3. composed based on the audio recording on the reference cd based on detectable words?

Perhaps Albair can answer to settle my curiosity. I have no problem with it I just would like to know where it came from.

The original text says "para ouon niben ethijen pikahi je akshashni eouevkeria empe hli shasni erof eneh"

Thanks again

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Albair

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 04:04 PM

Yes, it is the 3rd option:
composed based on the audio recording on the reference cd based on detectable words?

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 04:11 PM

Thanks again but the text I have was published by the maktabit beni suef in 1971 which is known to date back to manuscripts. it even has things in coptic like the priests litanies which didn't make the cds.

my question is where did the "akchi mptaio mpehli chi mpefriti eneh" from. I understand it is "original text" from Albiers book but where did that portion come from before that?

1. another book/manuscript
2. oral tradition
3. composed based on the audio recording on the reference cd based on detectable words?

Perhaps Albair can answer to settle my curiosity. I have no problem with it I just would like to know where it came from.

The original text says "para ouon niben ethijen pikahi je akshashni eouevkeria empe hli shasni erof eneh"

Thanks again

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 06:25 PM

From ABasanti: You can find this text along with the remaining verses with the Pipnevma tune in Albiers Deacon Service Book 2nd Edition that just came out really a good book, nothing is missing from it

2nd edition? Is this not the thick black one? Is it a newer one? One thing that was missing from it which surprised me was the 'pachois' for Pentecost.

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atthoowi

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 08:20 PM

Thank you Albier and Andrew.

God Shall Bless and Reward your services.

Fnouti ef`e cmou ouoh `nteftibexe nwten ethbe neten`hbHoui.

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ABasanti

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 08:38 PM

yep that balck one was the first edition and we all no what second editions are .... additional things and spelling mistakes corrected. And yes the pachoic for pentecost is in their now including everything else you can ever think off. It will soon be in the orthodoxbookstore god willing. The color is different now, it is a badge color and a lot more pages with a lot more information, hymns, and prayers that you wouldn't even think existed haha

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 24, 2008 - 09:13 PM

Thats great. Let me see if this book really does have everything =)

1. Does it have the rest of Meghalo (kata teen)?

2. Does it have ALL the cannons for Great Lent weekdays (which is recorded by atthowi)?

3.) Did you add more saints at the end of the book?

4. Are there more rites, as in rites for 29th of every Coptic Month,

- Extensive Rites for Agpeya, Tasbeha, offering of morning/evening incense, liturgies, all fasts/feast of the year, Holy week, Tamgeed, all special occasions (e.g., ordinations, funerals, weddings, baptisms, etc)?

- A section for preparatory prayers for deacons while going to church and their instructions?

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Kalax

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 02:45 AM

†
I'm lovin' this discussion. Very informative.

This is for anyone living in California or those of you planning to visit St. Antony's Monastery in the near future.

The Pascha cd's have arrived to the monastery!!!

So, if your interested just ask Heg. Anastasi or Deacon Pavle.

G.B.U

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ABasanti

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 02:30 PM

the rest of Meghalo is there, the rite of the 29th is there... the rest of anything and everything is there ... and there is much more... we will put up an ad which will have every thing new in this edition.

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abahoor

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 03:37 PM

will the book be in egypt?

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 06:03 PM

OK Abasanti send me the book NOW!! lol when will it be out for sale??

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Biboboy

posted on Mar 26, 2008 - 11:41 AM

Hey Dave,

I'm working on the page for the second editions of the DSB... so it should be out very soon. But my laptop inconveniently broke down!!

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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ABasanti

posted on Mar 26, 2008 - 06:07 PM

Egypt has the book and it is out. The orthodox bookstore will have it for sale mid April.

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