coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

ophadeece

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 09:46 AM

Dear all,
Not sure if this has been discussed before, but maybe it was, so please have patience and mercy on me
The reason I am bringing up this discussion is that we are in the Great Lent. I was listening to some hymns of the Great Lent by Ibrahim Ayad, and I really thought (as is the case with many other hymns) that he "beautifies" the hymns, and add a personal touch to them as compared with HICS, and other cantors. For me, the hymns lose the tinge of being prayed when they are sung in this way. I would like to hear every one's opinions please.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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tonyhabibi

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 02:07 PM

okay im not a hymns expert , but i found out that i personally cant learn hymns from ibrahim ayad when i hear him on cds teaching hymns , ... its kinda slow for me .

but i also heard this guy in washington DC church , who has a great voice , but i think he also puts a personal touch to the hymns , .... i only found this in one hymn he sang ... it was esmo epchoice ( in tasbeha ) .... He was doing the ARI OO CHASF part ...and in the final parts of the Ariiie part , he raised his voice , i think to signal to the people in the studio or something that he was about to switch to the AAAA and when it was time to switch from the .... eeeeee to the AAAAAAh part ... he switched it like this ...
Ariiii oooo Etchafs fee sha .... etc .
There is no Et-Chafs .... But he added the Et

Not a big Change ... but a change ...

anyways , maybe im wrong .

he is good dont get me wrong ( the guy in washington Dc church . ) . And that is the only change i have noticed in his Hymn Singing Career .

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 03:13 PM

I must respectfully disagree with you ophadeece. I think by adding "beauty" to the hymhn it makes it sound much more beautiful and gives it more meaning. I personally love Ibrahim Ayads recordings as i'm sure you already know. and i think by him slowing down the hymn it allows for people who are out to learn hear every hizza. But when actually singing the hymn its unpractical of course. I'm sure many will disagree with me but this is my opinion.

God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness.

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abanoub.beshaie

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 03:29 PM

Can someone tell me who is the Priest praying the Holy Liturgy with Ibrahim Ayad & Cathedral Chorus in Germany.

http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php? ... ly_Liturgy

Thanks in Advance, God Bless You !

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 04:19 PM

I personally love the way Ibrahim Ayad, Anton, and choir sound; I think all their voices are beautiful. I don't believe, however, that he or anyone else can add or take away any beauty or meaning from any of the hymns. The absolute beauty in the hymns are not primarily in the chanter or tune but in its deep spirituality and theology.

I feel, though, that singing the hymn in a way that "beautifies" it is only a humanistic way of expressing its own beauty, for we are not heavenly creatures to be able to illustrate that in any other way.

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hany58

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 05:17 PM

Personally I'm with Jydeacon, i really really love Ibrahim Ayad, or in other words (I can't listen and learn alhan without him at all, he is great cantor and his knowledge in alhan is unbelievable), I mean if he says alhan wrong then HH Pope Shounda wouldn't have chosen him to be his dedicated cantor and teacher of coptic hymns for more than 30 years. but i mean its personal opinion at the end and there is nothing wrong with learning from the source that you like, I have two of my best friends that don't like Ibrahim Ayad as well and love to learn from the chorus, but I feel that Ibrahim Ayad's voice is so so clear and he knows alhan well and that's why I learn from him,

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 07:21 PM

Many things he DOES add to hymns to make them in a way personal. He does add some hazaa's that i found and he does 'lahan' sometimes when its not part of the tune. One HUGE example is in a liturgy I have, and when the priest prays the part of the Gregorian liturgy before the 7 litanies, 'thabit assass il kineesa,' the chorus would switch with him. He would say one 'kirie eleyson' and the chorus would say one. His, though, went SUPER high and made it extra long and just added a personal twist that you will never find in any cantor recordings.

As for tonyhabibi, I know of this guy too and the exact recording you are talking about. He is a replica of Ayad, and sounds pretty close to him. I know that he does learn from Ayad on most of his hymns.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 07:56 PM

Well,

I love to dive into a discussion and disagree with everyone (lol) but I, personally, cannot learn hymns from Ibrahim Ayaad. I can count all the hymns I have ever learned from his recordings on one hand (Psalm 150 for Kiahk, Fia Etaf Enf, Niethnos Tyrou, Ounishti Emmysterion and Piepnevma). Those are the only hymns that I recall learning from him.

I think the reason is the quality of voice. He has a very egyptian voice, which is able to bend the hazaat the way that he does. As for me, I have a very very very soft voice and a very very very very high pitch...which is why i prefer to learn from a choir (or mllms Gad or Farag).

I think it really has to do with personal taste than with right or wrong.

George Mekhaiel

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 08:04 PM

I found the liturgy. It's a liturgy with Fr. Pishoy Dimitri, and he goes high and crazy on the lord have mercies that the group doesn't say at the part of the Gregorian liturgy that says' yea we ask you o lord'

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 08:42 PM

Dear all,
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me. Yes, clearly it is "personal opinions" at the end of the day, but I do agree with some who say that I can't learn from him as he uses a very slow rhythm. I understand that for some like jydeacon and David_the_King, who are knowledgeable in hymns, and how they are sung, it is easier for them to enjoy and learn from Ibrahim Ayad.
But my point is still that I find the hymns lose some spiritual meaning when he does beautify them. I do agree that the hymns have a deep spiritual meaning and theology behind them whether Ibrahim or anyone else sings them, but it may only be my problem.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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pavly

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 09:22 PM

I personally learned a lot of hymns from him. However, I recently started revising from other sources, to take away that "personal touch" from the hymns.
I must say however, that although he does add some personal touches, he still keeps the general tune of the hymn. I remember comparing his rendition of hymns like Ispatir (2nd Peniot ethowab...) and they almost always end up like Mu'allim Mikhail's!

Also, we had a chance to have him visit our church, here in Montreal (Canada). Something that struck me from him is that he doesn't impose what we often say "the right way of saying the hymn". During the Liturgy, he would even wait till our usual leader would ask him if we wants to say a specific hymn...
I see this as more important than just saying the hymn, and this in itself gives him more credibility to me!

Pavly

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 04, 2008 - 09:32 PM

Like most of you already said, it is all based on taste. However, it is good that we stay consistent as possible, which is why I think it to be dangerous to add personal touches on "learning" cd's. I recently had a hymns discussion with both my uncles concerning this matter, one of them had learned a hymn from ayad and it was so different and strange from how it was commonly chanted. This is the reason why it is important not to make learning cd's with your own tunes. What it does is seperate the "unity" of how each church chants their hymns. Of course this is going to be biased but my advice to anyone who wishes to not only learn and chant hymns but to learn and chant them as a group, would be for them to learn from a choir, and personally I see the HCOC as the best choir, not only in terms of recordings, but in effort, research, and dedication. Besides, their Holy Week production sounds AMAZING

GB
Tony

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 05:30 AM

Absolutely Tony! He does sometimes take away from the way it should be chanted. I recall one being 'share efnouti.' HICS does 2 hazaas high first, Ayad starts them low then gets high. It is a slight difference, but in singing it with others, it matters. Too many people rely on him being the ultimate source, especially that of older generations. They just follow Ayad in everything. But sometimes, one has to learn from the hard cantors like Mikhail or Tewfik or Sadek or Faheem because they did not add ANY personal touch to the hymns.

Ophadeece, I generally do NOT learn from Ayad. Usually I learn from the sources. I prefer Sadek because his is the best. I usually would ask PaulS what he thinks and he will tell me his opinion on which source is better. I will not say that I have not learned from Ayad, but it is mainly for the more common hymns, like O nim nai or meghalo (which I learned from Paul who learned from him) or the saturday theotokia. These, I feel, are common hymns that everyone knows, so I choose Ayad because his is the easiest to learn from and because in small hymns, there is not much one can do to change it. It has parts of meghalo and his meghalo matches with most other sources.

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 05:41 AM

I think there's a difference between harmonizing and changing the tune...

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 06:05 AM

You are right. Sometimes Ayad changes them. Check if there is a liturgy with Fr. Pishoy Dimitry and see if it is Gregorian. If so, check the part of the liturgy I mentioned above. Where is a source that does it like that?

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 08:21 AM

Dear David_the_King,
I strongly agree with your view about Sadek Attalla (did he really lose his voice?) I think the way he says the hymns are very basic, very consistent, and I think above all, very original. But being a newcomer in the field of Coptic hymns, I don't own many hymns by him, and I don't have that great an opportunity of learning from him. This is the problem, as AMoussa01 rightly pointed out - we lost the unity and oneness of the church (however slight that maybe, and however big my exaggeration is), but still we sing hymns differently, then genuineness in rendition is affected. I hope at least every one of us be careful of this.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 01:08 PM

I agree with you guys to a certain extent.When singing with a choir Mlm Ibrahim Ayad is not the best source due to his changing some hymns. the best thing to do is learn from the Mlm and your church and go back to recordings for spots you need help with making sure they coincide with the teachings at your church. He is of course not my only source on hymns, i still stand by my opinion however that he is a good source to learn hymns from, but with discernment(i know i'm contradicting myself abit) for me its easier to learn from him but definetly not for everything.For me personally if i'm really out to learn the hymn(like i need to learn it fast) my first source will be the HCOC classes that are online. sorry if i wasn't clear from before.

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hany58

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 05:15 PM

My Personal Opinion is that Muallem Ibrahim Ayad is a great source, what he does to the hymn is not changing it but rather making it longer, but the hazzat are not wrong, I mean I learnt 95% of the hymns that I know from him, and I compared it with the HICS and it does sound the same in terms of hazzat, Muallem Ibrahim just makes it longer because of his talent voice, you just need to understand how to learn from him if you like it, but I mean guys learn alhan from any source as long as you learn, hymns are a great spiritual benefit to all of us and I personally cannot live without learning it (hahah and without Ibrahim Ayad my dear cantor ) but again it is personal opinion and I respect everyone's opinion on this matter, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my response,

God Bless,

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 06:22 PM

Ophadeece, you have Coptichymns.net to learn Sadek hymns from. Anything with Sadek I will tend to learn from or play first. If not him, then definitely Tawfik, which Fr. Mettias often learns from.

As for Hany, the reason why Ayad is not as reliable is because he himself did not learn from Cantor Mikhail face-to-face. He is the ultimate source in ANY hymn. His students learned from him, although there are often differences. Sadek and Habib learned from him the longest and most. Therefore, they are more reliable sources. Tawfik was a reliable source and would meet with Mikhail and exchange hymns. Many people and churches like Tewfik's teaching better than Mikhail's. That is fine. But with Ayad, he is not an original person when it comes to preserving the hymns as the Great cantors did.

Again, Ayad is a fine source but I would always make sure to check someone more reliable. He is consistent when it comes to long hymns that really can't be changed, like niethnos teero, meghalo, etc.

I hope I made sense and did not offend anyone

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hany58

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 06:52 PM

thanks for your reply David the King,

I just want to clarify some points, Muallem Ibrahim couldn't learn directly from Muallem Mikhail the Great because Muallem Mikhail the Great departed at the year of 1957, so Muallem Ibrahim was not around this time. But I know from accurate sources that Muallem Ibrahim learnt his hymns from Catnor Fahim Girgis (Who learnt lots of his hymns from Cantor Mikhail), Muallem Farag Abdel Messih (Which we consider as a very accurate source of coptic hymns and who learnt directly from Catnor Mikhail), Muallem Sadek Attalla (Who learnt from muallem mikhail as well). I mean how can I say now that Muallem Ibrahim Ayad is not an accurate source for coptic hymns? I asked one of the very very big experts in coptic hymns nowadays (without mentioning names) and he said that Muallem Ibrahim is a great source for coptic hymns and that he is very accurate. The only thing is that sometimes we see him makes the hymn longer but that doesn't mean that the hazzat are wrong, I would have to say that every single person on this earth says coptic hymns different to the other person simply because every single person has different voice pitch, different breath (what I mean by that is that some people have short breath which makes them make the hazzat shorter, other have a long breath making the hazzat longer) again this and that are not wrong, they are just different on the speed. This is exactly the same situation with Muallem Ibrahim, his breath is so long and his talent in unbelievable and that's why he says hymns according to the talent that God gave him, so this makes him a great source. I'm sorry to say this but can some clarify for me something "If Muallem Ibrahim is not a good source for alhan, why would HH Pope Shenouda give him the responsibility of taking care of coptic hymns? I personally don't think that HH Pope Shenouda makes any decision without looking at it first and deciding very well whether it is accurate or not. but again this is my personal opinion, I really really wish that I didn't offend anyone, May God bless you all

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 07:46 PM

I heard a while ago that he re-recorded a buncha stuff; does anyone know about this? I know about the ta3leem liturgy, but I heard that he re-recorded the hymns...

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hany58

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 07:47 PM

He recorded the Vesper Praise for Kiahk Praises and Palm Sunday recordings, I recently ordered them and they are pretty usefull,

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 08:11 PM

A little off topic...

Hany, do you have his recording of the long Teoi enhikanos?

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hany58

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 08:15 PM

I don't think that he recorded that, or maybe I don't know but I personally don't think that Muallem Ibrahim recorded the Long Teoy enhikanos

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 09:28 PM

He did; supposedly it was with a tape for the Feast of the Cross. Thanks anyway.

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