coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

tonyhabibi

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 03:21 PM

some deacons in my church are planning to make a hymns cd , that is set to an ORG ( electric piano ) , .. AND they sound good but i have a problem with the BEAT ...... the beat has some of belly dancer " themes to it , LIKE for instance , we are singing THE tASBEHA VERSION of shere ne maria , and the guy who is playing the piano , sometimes puts the following beat :::

You know how belly dancers , sometimes have those tiny cymbals in their fingertips that they clap together , whenever they move their hips ...
well they put that sound frequently in the song , and i just cant find my self to approve of it , i feel like im singing to something im not supposed to . ( i AM NOT AN AUTHORITY ) .my priest heard it and didnt complain , i raised a complaint , and the guy playing the org , gave me a MEAN look , so i shut my mouth . and one deacon who i did complain to said there are many recordings out there set to popular tune . my priest said it was a way to get the new generation in love with our hymns . but i thought to myself , does that mean we have to compromise changing the traditional instruments that we use for our hymns. ?

IM NOT AN AUTHORITY .... I CANT EVER READ COPTIC .. but i this is one thing that just doesnt seem right to me ...

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 05, 2008 - 11:33 PM

I am with you buddy. I think its really sad when we try to compromise our beautiful heritage at the expense of others. Personally, i find it degrading when people try to change things to conform to what people are used to--and what makes it so bad is that they are changing our hymns! This is something spiritual and should not be compromised for the sake of others! What else is next to go?

GB
Tony

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 07:05 AM

Music is not wrong. We were influenced by the Jewish community. Many Jews fled to Egypt to escape persecution. In the beginning of our church, there were many Jews. Some had instruments in the synagogue, some did not. We as a church, used just our voices to praise, to show the power. Some other churches used instruments. None are wrong. That is why over time we added the cymbals, to keep harmony because sometimes vocals could not do this.

Basically, we do not use it IN CHURCH, but outside of church, in recordings, it is absolutely acceptable.

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 11:46 AM

Dear tonyhabibi,
I understand where you are coming from. I think I disagree with David_the_King here, as even outside the church we still have to keep the spirituality and placidity of the hymns. I know that some hymns are recorded with different kinds of instruments for the sake of marketing them, and making profits, but I really strongly object to the usage of inappropriate instruments, and one of these is the small cymbals (forgot what they are called) that tonyhabibi is talking about. One argument is still that it is a percussion instrument exactly like the cymbals and the triangle; to me they are not. Because they are being misused in a different and "unholy" atmosphere, there usage shouldn't be encouraged anymore in our church. That goes for any other similar thing.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 11:46 AM

Dear Tonyhabibi,
I forgot to say that if I were you I would refrain from participating in that project.
God bless you and pray for us a lot

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Katherine

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 12:06 PM

I'm no authority on hymns, nor do I know a lot about the history of them, but I'm going to have to disagree with you tonyhabibi. There's no such thing as a musical instrument being tainted because it is being used in an "unholy" atmosphere. That just doesn't make logical sense. If the cymbals and triangles become the coolest instruments to use in a satanic death metal band, is the church going to hang them up and stop using them? No, of course not.

Musical instruments are musical instruments. When we use them as tools to glorify God there's nothing wrong with that. A guitar or a piano or a whatever is not morally lower than a cymbal and a triangle.

As for these small cymbal things- I can assure you that it's HIGHLY unlikely that when somebody is listening to a hymn, and those are in the background, their mind is going to go, "hey, that reminds me of bellydancing." At my church, we had a group of youth write and play songs at New Years Eve, and they had drums, a keyboard, and a guitar, but I can assure you, nobody's mind wandered over to Marilyn Manson or something just because he uses the same instruments.

If your PRIEST thinks its okay, I'm pretty sure it's fine. I really don't think your priest's goal is to try and make this hymns recording a platinum, billboard topping #1 album...I think he just wants it to sound nice...and is there really any harm in that?

God bless

Katherine

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 12:37 PM

I'm with tony on this one, I personally feel the beauty is in the hymn itself and there is no need for music to make it sound "nice" to others ears. The cymbals we use in church is only used to keep the rythm and the beat of the hymn. not to make it sound nice. It sounds nice together as a plus but not as a reason we play them. As David_the_King said we never used to use instruments at all but allowed the cymbals and triangles to help keep the rythm. We are in the process of making a cd here as well and someone suggested we put instruments but we have all(as a group of deacons) rejected that notion and refuse to sing with instruments.

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Katherine

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 12:50 PM

Jydeacon I agree with you! I think hymns sound great with or without instruments and I don't think that instruments are necessary when playing hymns. But again, is there any harm in them sounding nice with instruments in the background? I don't think so. Just because the early church didn't use instruments, it doesn't mean we aren't allowed to use them.

There's a difference between being traditional and just doing something because that's how it's always been done. It is crucial in our church to keep traditions when they have theological/doctrinal importance. But the way we play hymns does not fall in that category. So long as the hymn is essentially the same in terms of its meaning and the essence of its tune there's no harm in changing the way you play it in order to suit culture..


In Kenya, they do not sing hymns the way we do- check out this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=2qwDTVs98b0. Is this church being sinful because they are clapping and using what sounds like a tambourine or a pair of maracas?

We sing songs according to our culture. In modern culture, we use instruments when we sing and that's not a crime.

Again, just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

God bless,

Katherine

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 02:48 PM

Well said Katherine, I agree with you 100%. "Tradition" in the theological/doctrinal realm is what really counts. This is "Holy Tradition," (Note that things like the canonization of the Bible are within Holy Tradition). What kind of tune or instruments we use is not important (as long as the meaning of the Hymn doesn't get lost, i.e. you don't sing Golgotha to the tune of rap).

Hymns like Epouro are based in tune on the Pharaohs' welcome in ancient Egypt. There's nothing "holy" about the tune, it's all about the words.

Instead of an example of Kenya, I'd use Ethiopia (just because we're in communion with the Ethiopians, so by implication, it means that their dancing/singing at their liturgy isn't that big of a deal for our Church).

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 03:11 PM

I completely understand that, and there was a discussion on here about modernizing/westernizing our hymns here http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-vie ... -8126.html I've stated my opinion in there and i would rather not repeat the discussion. We are a traditional church, if we start playing instruments(besides precussion to keep the beat as i said before) then why not change the tunes/or way of singing it and keep the same words so that there is nothing theological/doctrinal wrong with them?? Because we are copts who live in america. just because we live here doesn't mean we should conform to styles of worship here for the sake of others. We are the Coptic Orthodox church in america not the coptic orthodox church of america. Forgive me if i have offended anyone.

God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 03:20 PM

I'd tell you there's nothing "holy" about the tunes we're using today, e.g. epouro. HOWEVER, for the sake of uniformity, the Coptic Church should keep things the way they are. If you've got different liturgies in every city across the world, praying itself becomes difficult, now THAT is a "holy" aspect which should not be messed with.

So, I'd say that there's nothing special about the tunes themselves, but there's something special about the uniformity within the Coptic Church.

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 05:05 PM

Truth.Seeker,

Again, i disagree . Mainly because of fact that some of these tunes were taken and constructed in a manner that emphasizes the words which we say, particularly in hymns like pekethronos, omonogenees, fai etafenf, and so on and so forth. There are very nice contemplations on the heritage site that not only talk about the words but also how the tune is used in a sense to emphasize these words in a manner to help us (the people) meditate on its significance. I suggest looking here: http://copticheritage.org/index.php?nam ... ctoview=19

One could even say that these tunes came from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which makes them relevant to the words chanted in the hymn. If you decide to check out that link, I recommend looking at the contemplations on the Annual Sunday midnight praise and Pascha. They are all very enlightening and beautiful...

Katherine does have a good point, however, i do think that its important not to get too caught up in the music, because the more we focus on the music, the harder it is to contemplate on its actual meaning. The hymns than are chanted for the wrong purposes...just my thoughts...

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 06:09 PM

"Emphasizing words" doesn't mean "holy." I've already said what you said, i.e. the tune should match the words.

I guess the Holy Spirit inspired unbelieving ancient Egyptians to make the tune of Epouro. Come on now...

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 06:23 PM

Dear Katherine,
I really find it hard to agree with your views, although I like the way you express your points. Well, the point that if triangles and cymbals were used by a heavy metal group to sing (which is difficult for me to grasp), then we should stop using them; I would say "no"; unless they become an inherent part of heavy metal music, and that all the heavy metal bands starts adopting them in their songs. Now that is how we should start thinking about their use, and maybe as you pointed out ban them. These instruments are not "holy", but their usage and the context they are used in makes them used for "holy" purposes, or "unholy" purposes. Like I said, if it is spread in that heavy metal thing context, then they become used in an "unholy" way, and their use in the church should be thought over. What if the new generation mix up the usage of hymns with the heavy metal music because both share the same instrument (an exaggeration of the argument).
Another point is that you have to consider as jydeacon said those hymns of our church were not basically intended for any instruments to be played on. Actually, the principle behind the hymns is that the congregation sing as a victorious army coming out of a war which they won to sing with their voices alone believing that the larynx is the best musical organ (from Dr. Ragheb Moftah).
Dear Truth.Seeker, I completely disagree (like jydeacon) about the state of the words being holy but not the music. Rightly you said that many of (if not most of) the hymns' music was taken from pharaonic, or Lebanese, or whatever, but please remember that even the music alongside the words was made holy by the Holy Spirit. He has preserved the hymns alongside their music for thousands of years (around two thousand), so I won't stand the opinion that only the words are holy. God is able to change something bad over to something which is very beneficial and for our good.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 06:45 PM

The words that the Prophet David said in the Psalms don't gain or lose any holiness because of his harp. Saying things like "I won't stand the opinion..." is destructive for civil discussions, and a dangerous path if I were to engage in similar phraseology.

It is almost a certain fact that the tunes we have today are somewhat if not completely different from the tunes we had 2,000 years ago. If the Holy Spirit took it upon Himself to "holify" the tunes, this would not be the case.

In fact, the most active discussion going on right now is whether Ayad's or the other guy's tune is more accurate. It's hard to see how the Holy Spirit could be this confused.

Let us be careful when we invoke the Holy Spirit...it's a dangerous path if we don't invoke Him when appropriate.

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 08:58 PM

Dear Truth.Seeker,
I am sure you know very well that the Holy Spirit doesn't nullify man's works. Otherwise, we would have saints' sayings like muslim foqaha`. We don't; the simple fact is that the Holy Spirit retains our own identity even when He preserves those hymns. What the debate is about though is this identity, and how it affected the hymns. You are right that hymns may be so different to the extent of complete change to what they were 2000 years ago, but that doesn't deny the fact that the Holy Spirit still preserved every single one of them, and it is through our laziness that we lost them. Just like the Holy Spirit guides our saints and Christian writers, even though many of them have different and sometimes opposing views. I hope you get my point. If the Holy Spirit did not preserve those hymns, then we can assume they are not important at all, and I guess you know so well how important the hymns are in keeping the faith of the Coptic Christians (talking about the Coptic hymns in particular), and strengthening the saints and martyrs through the ages.
God bless you and pray for us a lot

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 09:26 PM

Truth.Seeker,

You seemed to have misunderstood me ounce again. No where did i say in my post that i thought that these tunes were considered "holy." What I was implying was that they were in a sense spiritual; believe it or not, there is a difference. The fact that the tunes of hymns reflect upon their meanings gives it great depth! It leaves time for contemplation, prayer, and joy in most cases. At times, when I am truly praying and meditating on the hymns, I feel as if I am full of joy and eagerness to praise God and sometimes the tunes themselves help...especially if its a farayhy hymn. I am 100% sure that this does not only happen with me, but to many others as well.

From Truth.Seeker:
I guess the Holy Spirit inspired unbelieving ancient Egyptians to make the tune of Epouro. Come on now...

First of all, the ancient egyptians did not chant the hymn epooro. Second of all, our hymns have developed over time. The tunes have all been reconstructed to orthodox hymns; yes the style might be the same, but it is still different.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 10:32 PM

From AMoussa01:Truth.Seeker,

You seemed to have misunderstood me ounce again. No where did i say in my post that i thought that these tunes were considered "holy."

From Truth.Seeker:
I guess the Holy Spirit inspired unbelieving ancient Egyptians to make the tune of Epouro. Come on now...

First of all, the ancient egyptians did not chant the hymn epooro. Second of all, our hymns have developed over time. The tunes have all been reconstructed to orthodox hymns; yes the style might be the same, but it is still different.

GB
Tony

Tony, you said the following earlier, "One could even say that these tunes came from the guidance of the Holy Spirit." Now you are saying "no where did I say in my post that i thought that these tunes were considered holy."

Are you seriously telling me that you can say something came from the guidance of the Holy Spirit and was unholy? I'm sorry, but that's blasphemous.

No where in my post did I say the ancient Egyptians were chanting the hymn epouro. I said the tune (not words) came from ancient Egyptians (which you agree with) - "yes the style might be the same."

Here's what you have said thus far:

1) The tunes of Coptic hymns are guided by the Holy Spirit
2) The tunes of Coptic hymns are not holy
3) Although Epouro is the same "style" as in ancient Egypt, it's not the same "tune."

News: The only difference between Epouro and what the ancient Egyptians were chanting are the words. The tune is the same.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2008 - 10:44 PM

ophadeece,

Your original argument is that the tunes we have are from the Holy Spirit (you said the tunes are holy). Now, you are saying that we got lazy and lost what the Holy Spirit had established.

You know what that means? That means what we have today is not what the Holy Spirit preserved.

Your own arguments defeat your own point.

1) The Holy Spirit preserved the hymns.
2) We lost them through our laziness.
3) The tunes we have today are holy.


The other alternative is that the Holy Spirit just changes what He "preserves" based on the changes that humans make (indeed that is the only way you can attribute what we have today to the Holy Spirit's preservation, since we both agree the hymns have changed), then it's not the Holy Spirit, it's humans. So, if we were to change all Coptic hymns into rap, ten minutes after we're done, you would tell me that the Holy Spirit has preserved our hymns in the form of rap.

The two alternatives don't work.

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 12:38 AM

Truth.Seeker,

I see many flaws in your arguement. Let me present you with a case: If the Holy Spirit guided me, does that mean i am holy? If the Holy Spirit guided me in any sense, does that mean i am considered holy? I will leave that for you to answer...

Second, I just want to make it clear that not all the hymns we have are chanted by the ancient egyptians..like i said before its just a style, but that style of music has been taken and manipulated in a manner that makes sense in our worship and prayer. What i mean by this is that careful consideration has been taken into the tunes we have in our hymns and there is a reason why they are the way they are in our services.

GB
Tony

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 10:31 AM

Dear Truth.Seeker,
I can see that I wasn't very clear in what I meant as you misunderstood it later. I never said the tunes were holy in the first place, but what man makes the Holy Spirit does sanctify. This is exactly what happened with Coptic hymns (at least in my view). Man made the words, fitted them on older music, and off we went, with Coptic hymns that lived through the ages for two thousand years; yes the Holy Spirit preserved them, but through our laziness and other factors we lost many more. There is no question that the Holy Spirit has actually preserved what we have nowadays even though it has changed (because He does not deny the identity of His people), and to go a step further then yes: if we as a church decided to change our Coptic hymns upon rap music, then be it - the Holy Spirit will still sanctify them, and preserve them two thousand years (or maybe millions more) from now. I am saying "maybe" as we don't know the times or eras God decided to abolish the earth. I hope that makes sense now.
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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 03:06 PM

Tony,

You tell me there are flaws in my argument, then you don't say anything about my argument. Yes, if the Holy Spirit guides you, that means you are holy, St. Peter said: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." 1 Peter 2:29."

Why do you think the Pope's title is "Your Holiness"? Because he is the leader of this holy nation.

Ophadeece,

Definition of "preservation":

1. to keep alive or in existence; make lasting: to preserve our liberties as free citizens.
2. to keep safe from harm or injury; protect or spare.
3. to keep up; maintain: to preserve historical monuments.

By definition, something can't be "preserved" and "lost" at the same time.

For the record, I actually agree with you and Tony that the belly dancing beat needs to go. When you listen to a hymn it shouldn't make you want to dance. I will never agree with you that if all Copts were to decide to have "dance music" with our hymns, that the Holy Spirit would sanctify it. I find nothing spiritual about techno.

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 05:53 PM

Dear Truth.Seeker,
There is no contradiction in what I said of preservation with what I said that through our laziness we lose hymns. Again, I repeat to make myself clearer than ever, the Holy Spirit preserves, and that is a fact, and we waste. However, He is able to preserve what we attempt to keep and retain for ourselves and for the future generations; that happens when we ask Him to do, or fervently pursue that goal. I hope I am clear this time. By the way, I am so glad that you don't like the hymns on dance music - would have been an uphill task for me to try to defend myself having said so in the first place (I agree the Holy Spirit will not sanctify the hymns on this kind of music I think and it will die out).
God bless you and pray for us a lot

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 06:11 PM

Truth.Seeker,

You are talking about certain degrees of holiness. Technically, yes I am "holy" but that does not mean that people should kiss my hand whenever I greet them, does it? You raised a very interesting point which i have not thought about! Why cant someone who is composing a hymn be inspired by the Holy Spirit? Is that unheard of? I, personally, do not think so. Therefore, that would make it holy by definition wouldnt it? The question is, why do you find that so hard to believe? I would like to hear your thoughts...

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 07, 2008 - 07:30 PM

Ophadeece,

If something is preserved, it is not lost. The definition of preserved is "to keep from being lost." Now you are saying if it's dance music it won't be sanctified by the Holy Spirit, earlier you said even if it's rap it'd be sanctified. Then you tell me you see no contradiction in what you're saying...

Tony,

We don't kiss clergy's hands because they're personally holy, we kiss them because they are representatives of Christ. That's why we don't say, "oh, that priest is a sinner, I'm not going to kiss his hand." I.e. has nothing to do with their personal spirituality.

It is unheard of. If it was heard of, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You are the one who claimed tunes are guided by the Holy Spirit. It's up to you to prove it, not up to me to disprove it. Once you prove it you can ask me to disprove it.

The Holy Spirit is unchanging, tunes are changing. That's why I'm against this claim unless one thing happens. The Holy Spirit guides at one time, then we lose it. However, once we lose it, it's no longer holy. This is what my discussion with Ophadeece is about.

He basically said we can do whatever we want with the tunes, and they'll be sanctified by the Holy Spirit (now he's saying if it's dance music it wouldn't be). Since we can make all the tunes into rap, and the Holy Spirit wouldn't sanctify it, then that can't be it.

We are talking about melodies. Let's not be too "generous" with what we credit the Holy Spirit with.

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