Noosa_1978
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 04:50 AM
I was just watching a movie called defending your life, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/
It is about judgement after death. How are we judged when we die to see if we can go to heaven?
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Judgement After Death
jydeacon
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 01:54 PM
You will basically know where you will be by where you are takin after you die, Firstly(i heard this from Tammav Irini Herself) that after you die everyone goes and bows before the Throne of God. Then you are takin to either paradise or hades. so you basically know where you will be right after you die
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 04:35 PM
Short answer: we don't know.
What we know:
Before the crucixion, everyone went to Hades. But even in Hades, the levels of "torment" were different. We know this from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The Rich Man was in agony and asking the Patriarch Abraham to go back to Earth and tell his brothers to stay away from sinning. This was while Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham. So, although it was the same "place" (if we can even speak in physical terms), the experiences were different.
After the crucixion things changed. Christ told the thief that "[i]today[/] he would be with Him in paradise." Also, the Chuch teaches that Christ descended into Hades, delivered the saints of old (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc...) and took them to Paradise. So, we now know that those who follow Christ will go straight to Paradise (like the thief), and those who don't will go to where everyone used to go (Hades).
So, jydeacon got it right on.
To ellaborate further:
"Heaven" is a step up from "Paradise" (according to H.H., "Heaven" is where those in paradise will go after judgment day, this is from his answer to a question about what the different "heavens" in the Bible mean). So, those in paradise, will know, because of their joy in paradise ("paradise of joy" as we say in the Liturgy), that they have even better things stored for them (Heaven).
Those in Hades, will know because of their state (agony like that of the Rich Man) that they have even worse things in store for them - Hell.
Note that even within Heaven and Hell the reward or punishment is different (Bible many times say everyone will be given according to his/her works). This is also what the Pope said. One of the examples H.H. uses is pointing out when Christ said that even Sodom and Gamorrah will "in that day" (judgment day) condemn the people who didn't believe Him.
As for its "recording," God is omniscient, He doesn't need anything to "keep track" of what we've done. What exactly is going to happen on Judgment day - I don't know.
I hope this helped.
Noosa_1978
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 06:48 PM
I know what happens to those who don't believe. But even people who believe in Jesus and are baptized do commit sins. Meaning you, me, and everyone else on this board. Come on, we are all human beings. Whether by mistake or consciously. Abouna is not there 24/7 to take our confessions. What if someone did commit a sin and died before they had a chance to confess and take communion. For example, Jane Doe lied to someone. Ten minutes later, she went outside and was hit by a car and died. What is going to happen to her?
jydeacon
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 06:54 PM
Thats really none of our concern, just run your race and don't worry about anyone else. Do your best and hope God has mercy on you. Nobody nows how God judges us and #1 it doesn't matter cause no matter how He judges its fair. #2 who he judges and how should not matter because whether or not they go to heaven will not help us in our own salvation. That goes for any question like if a baby isn't baptized will it go to heaven? the answer is IT DOESN"T MATTER
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 12, 2008 - 08:14 PM
jydeacon,
We should differentiate between questions that "don't matter" and questions that have "easy answers." I somewhat agree with you --> for any question that starts with, "It is fair that God does ...?" The answer will always be, "Yes, it's God, He decides what's fair, He does what He wants to do, therefore whatever He does is fair." That doesn't mean that the question "doesn't matter," it just means the answer is easy.
I think Noosa's question neither has a "simple answer" nor "doesn't matter," it's a legitimate concern. If the standard is confess every and all sins or go to Hell, then it's hard to see how any of us will be saved. So, it's not that she's questioning whether it's fair for God to do something (which I think is what you understood her concern to be), it's that she wants to know what that "fairness" is. (Noosa, correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize to jydeacon in advance if I'm wrong).
Noosa,
I don't know if you've followed the "Suicide or Death" thread or not, but my answer here flows from the same answer that Pope Shenouda gave to the question of praying for the deceased.
First, our sins are broken up into "non-deadly" and "deadly sins." This flows from:
" If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not
leading to death. " (1 John 5:16-17)
St. John starts out by defining sin very broadly. "All unrighteousness is sin." The expansive interpretation is: look at what you're doing at any time of the day, if it's not righteous in some way, it's sin.
But then he goes on to say that there is sin [i]not[i/] leading to death. So, there are sins that we commit which will not condemn us. Now, these MUST NOT be sins we confess for because we are forgiven all sins that we forgive (i.e. it would make St. John's statement useless).
So, these are sins which we commit which will not lead us to condemnation if we were to not confess them.
What are non-deadly sins and what are deadly sins?
The Pope says: "They are uncompleted sins, sins that have not been fully carried out. They may be sins of ignorance, sins committed unintentionally, or sins that are latent, or sins of negligence, for example." (My ephasis added).
This is why the Church prays for the departed, for God to forgive the Church's departed their non-deadly sins which St. John was talking about. This is also why we don't pray for a mentally non-disabled person who commits suicide (because it's a deadly sin which we are instructed not to pray for).
Another reason the Pope gives for why we pray for the departed:
H.H.: "Let us suppose that a person has died suddenly without having had a chance to confess, or that he has forgotten to confess some sins, and therefore hasn't received an absolution for them. The Church can give him absolution and asks forgiveness for him, in the Prayer for the Departed.
The Church, therefore, prays for the sake of the departed
out of a kind of compassion, because no-one is without sin,
even if his life on earth lasts only one day (and this is a
phrase which comes in part of the Prayer for the Departed)."
I hope this answers your question.
lowlyman
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 12:52 PM
Noosa,
I don't think it is as simple as we make it out to be. If you look in the Bible, there are many examples of people being saved in different ways. Most notably the thief on the cross who according to the great saint of the Church stole the kingdom. That can be an example for all of us that no matter what we do, as long as we put out hope in Christ, we may still hear the word: "truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.
So, always Hope that christ will save you NO MATTER WHAt you did.
From Noosa_1978:So what is our purpose on this earth? Why are we all here?
stefanos
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 01:05 PM
As the others mentioned we should try not to worry about figuring out will what happen after death (although easier said than done) but keep our faith and live righteously each day in our best effort, growing always spiritually with God's help. As St. Paul says, "But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called..."1 Tim 6:11-12.
Truth.Seeker is absolutely right. If we try our best and confess regulary we are still bound to die in sin whether knowningly or unknowningly as the Holy Liturgy and Bible say but the Church will pray for us after we depart for those sins that the Lord may have mercy on us and forgive us. The second book of Maccabees mentions the prayers for the departed.
"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin." 2 Maccabees 12:44-45. pray for me.
jydeacon
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 03:04 PM
From Truth.Seeker:jydeacon,
We should differentiate between questions that "don't matter" and questions that have "easy answers." I somewhat agree with you --> for any question that starts with, "It is fair that God does ...?" The answer will always be, "Yes, it's God, He decides what's fair, He does what He wants to do, therefore whatever He does is fair." That doesn't mean that the question "doesn't matter," it just means the answer is easy.
I think Noosa's question neither has a "simple answer" nor "doesn't matter," it's a legitimate concern. If the standard is confess every and all sins or go to Hell, then it's hard to see how any of us will be saved. So, it's not that she's questioning whether it's fair for God to do something (which I think is what you understood her concern to be), it's that she wants to know what that "fairness" is. (Noosa, correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize to jydeacon in advance if I'm wrong).
Noosa,
I don't know if you've followed the "Suicide or Death" thread or not, but my answer here flows from the same answer that Pope Shenouda gave to the question of praying for the deceased.
First, our sins are broken up into "non-deadly" and "deadly sins." This flows from:
" If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not
leading to death. " (1 John 5:16-17)
St. John starts out by defining sin very broadly. "All unrighteousness is sin." The expansive interpretation is: look at what you're doing at any time of the day, if it's not righteous in some way, it's sin.
But then he goes on to say that there is sin [i]not[i/] leading to death. So, there are sins that we commit which will not condemn us. Now, these MUST NOT be sins we confess for because we are forgiven all sins that we forgive (i.e. it would make St. John's statement useless).
So, these are sins which we commit which will not lead us to condemnation if we were to not confess them.
What are non-deadly sins and what are deadly sins?
The Pope says: "They are uncompleted sins, sins that have not been fully carried out. They may be sins of ignorance, sins committed unintentionally, or sins that are latent, or sins of negligence, for example." (My ephasis added).
This is why the Church prays for the departed, for God to forgive the Church's departed their non-deadly sins which St. John was talking about. This is also why we don't pray for a mentally non-disabled person who commits suicide (because it's a deadly sin which we are instructed not to pray for).
Another reason the Pope gives for why we pray for the departed:
H.H.: "Let us suppose that a person has died suddenly without having had a chance to confess, or that he has forgotten to confess some sins, and therefore hasn't received an absolution for them. The Church can give him absolution and asks forgiveness for him, in the Prayer for the Departed.
The Church, therefore, prays for the sake of the departed
out of a kind of compassion, because no-one is without sin,
even if his life on earth lasts only one day (and this is a
phrase which comes in part of the Prayer for the Departed)."
I hope this answers your question.
Yes i completely understand where you guys are coming from and that is how i understood it(forgive me noosa for the misunderstanding) i thought she was saying is God fair which the answer no matter the circumstance is YES. but i still do believe its none of our concern to a certain extent as you said with sins leading to death and sins not leading to death(i've seen other interpretations of this verse but that can be for another thread)
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
_________________
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul. Remember that God never left you, it is you who left God.
Publican
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 03:39 PM
First, our sins are broken up into "non-deadly" and "deadly sins." This flows from:
" If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not
leading to death. " (1 John 5:16-17)
St. John starts out by defining sin very broadly. "All unrighteousness is sin." The expansive interpretation is: look at what you're doing at any time of the day, if it's not righteous in some way, it's sin.
But then he goes on to say that there is sin [i]not[i/] leading to death. So, there are sins that we commit which will not condemn us. Now, these MUST NOT be sins we confess for because we are forgiven all sins that we forgive (i.e. it would make St. John's statement useless).
So, these are sins which we commit which will not lead us to condemnation if we were to not confess them.
What are non-deadly sins and what are deadly sins?
The Pope says: "They are uncompleted sins, sins that have not been fully carried out. They may be sins of ignorance, sins committed unintentionally, or sins that are latent, or sins of negligence, for example." (My ephasis added).
This is why the Church prays for the departed, for God to forgive the Church's departed their non-deadly sins which St. John was talking about. This is also why we don't pray for a mentally non-disabled person who commits suicide (because it's a deadly sin which we are instructed not to pray for).
This sounds awfully similar to mortal and venial sins.
This teaching is not consistent with Orthodox doctrine, praxis or more generally the Orthodox ethos.
Unfortunately this is yet another example of Western (Catholic) doctrine infiltrating our Orthodox theology...very troubling.
_________________
"Fight the battle for your Heart" -- St. Antony the Great
"Sit in the presence of the Lord every moment of your life, as you think of him and recollect him in your heart." -- St. Isaac the Syrian
The greater the Knowledge of God, the greater the Love, and the greater the Love for God the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Love, the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Suffering.-- St. Silouan
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 04:07 PM
Publican,
1. How is this inconsistent with Orthodox doctrine? What is the Orthodox doctrine on this?
2. How about you give me your interpretation of:
"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not
leading to death." (1 John 5:16-17)
Biboboy
posted on Mar 13, 2008 - 06:20 PM
Agape,
Leave the judgement to Him who has authority to judge.
Concerning judgement, though, we're not judged after death. We're in a state of waiting for the resurrection of the dead, after which we are judged by Christ. Christianity teaches that we are judged as a whole person - body and soul - and not as bodiless souls, the latter being the belief of many other religions.
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 14, 2008 - 04:59 PM
Publican,
I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your sweeping comments about the unorthodoxy of my views (and more importantly, the unorthodoxy of His Holiness' views).
If your premise is that it's similar to Catholicism, therefore it's wrong, then I'd say that the only way that premise could work is if EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches is wrong.
I am sure you would not disagree with the Catholic Church that Jesus is the Christ.
mena12361107
posted on Mar 14, 2008 - 05:41 PM
Truthseeker,
He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Publican is saying that we disagree with the idea of mortal/venial sins. This, from my understanding, is true. We don't have the concept of degrees of sin because it is for God to judge and "...the wages of sin is death."(Romans 6:23). At the very least, we don't have it in the same understanding that Catholicism does. Catholics classify sins committed intentionally under either the category of mortal or venial depending on its severity. We have no such distinction. The verse from the epistle of St. John is interpreted by the church fathers to cover sins of ignorance or unintentional sins like you mentioned earlier. All of what you said was orthodox, it just may have been slightly misunderstood.
Mena the sinner
Publican
posted on Mar 14, 2008 - 11:10 PM
Truthseeker,
My apologies for not responding sooner, I am currently writing a paper (The relationship between Patristic Christology and Soteriology), however I hope to have the time to respond exhaustively to your question concerning my remarks tonight or tomorrow. I believe you will understand where I am coming from when given the Orthodox perspective.
I am not questioning His Holiness' Orthodoxy, although there is no doubt his theology is heavily influenced by Western thought. In any case with this specific situation I think the problem is not so much what His Holiness' wrote but your interpretation of it.
God Bless
Publican
_________________
"Fight the battle for your Heart" -- St. Antony the Great
"Sit in the presence of the Lord every moment of your life, as you think of him and recollect him in your heart." -- St. Isaac the Syrian
The greater the Knowledge of God, the greater the Love, and the greater the Love for God the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Love, the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Suffering.-- St. Silouan
Meghalo05
posted on Mar 14, 2008 - 11:31 PM
Blessed Lent,
The Orthodox Church differs in the Catholic Church with the concept of mortal/venial sin. The branching of this theme in the Catholic Church also leads to the concept of Purgatory. In the Orthodox Church, every sin is equal to the other. All sin is sin, and no sin is greater than the other. All sin is schism from God. From the simple lie to the most impure adulterous acts and to murder. All is sin. Note that Ananias and Sapphira died instantly when lieing, a simple lie! They perished in their sin. Our Lord himself also said that impure thoughts is considered adultery, thus showing us no difference between sin. Whether the spoon is gold, silver, or bronze, in the end its still a spoon. So why did Saint John differentiate between two types of sin? The sin which leads to death is the sin that is not accompanied with repentance and confession. This makes sense, because remember that continual sinning alongside rejection of God's will in your life is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit which is a sin unforgivable. Likewise, Sin with no repentance/confession will surely be unforgiven, and the end result is death, whereas sin which is followed by repentance; although sin being unrighteousness, it will be forgiven by our just Lord and will not lead you to death. Although culture, media, and many of us might view adultery/murder worse than a simple lie or judgment on an indivdiual, in God's eyes its all different branches attached to the tree of sin. Hope this helps.
Glory to God in all things
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 15, 2008 - 05:32 PM
Dear All,
First, I think Mena pointed out the issue: those who are disagreeing with me may be disagreeing because of the consequences they think what I said leads to, i.e. Purgatory. But that is not the case. Our Church is clear about its views in Purgatory, i.e. it doesn't exist. We should not shy away from certain interpretations because others may have the same interpretations which leads them to unorthodox teachings.
According to St. John and His Holiness all sin is NOT equal to all others.
If the statement, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death" means anything, is that not all sins are "equal." I.e. some lead to death and some don't.
I think it was pointed out that St. John, when talking about "sins not leading to death" is talking about those that were committed and then repented/confessed for. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense, look at the verses in context:
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
If your interprtation is correct then St. John is saying we should pray for God to forgive people sins which they have repented and confessed for AFTER observing that they repented and confessed them (because that's the only way we can know that they are not deadly sins, we're specifically told not to pray for sins leading to death). Since we know that God forgives those who repent and confess, WHY would St. John ask us to pray for the forgiveness of sins that have already been forgiven?
Then we have a practicality problem. We would have to go around and ask people which sins they have repented/confessed so we can know which sins to pray for them for. Note that we can't just pray for "all sins" and hope some/most are "non-deadly" because they were repented/confessed for, because we are told not to pray for sins leading to death. I think we all know that we don't go around asking people what sins they confessed/repented for.
The much more plausible interpretation is that there is a difference in LEVEL of these sins, i.e. intentional with knowledge and unintentional in ignorance. This is His Holiness' interpretation:
"The Lord said that He would come and " give to every one according to his work. " (Rev. 22:12) Obviously people's actions differ, and so therefore will their punishment. Even on earth, the Lord said in the Sermon on the Mount: " And
whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matt. 5:22). From this it is clear that punishment differs with the difference in degree of the offence.
St. Augustine also made this observation. Concerning this difference in degree of sin, and the Church's attitude towards it, St. John said: " There is sin leading to
death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to
death." ( 1 John 5:16-17) So, a sin that does not lead to death, can be prayed for, so that the one who has committed it should be given life. Sins which do not lead to death come under the headings of unintentional sins, sins of ignorance and sins of negligence."
His Holiness specifically says:
"Obviously there is a great difference between the
unintentional sin, and the sin which is carried out with full
intent and determination. Just as there is a big difference
between sins of ignorance and those committed in full
knowledge. God's justice requires that the punishment
should be in proportion to the crime."
About adultery (which I think Meghalo brought up), His Holiness says:
"The difference in sin can be clearly observed from the practical point of view. The person who commits adultery in his mind, for instance, is not like the person who commits the act of adultery, for the latter, by doing so, has defiled his own body and that of someone else too. And the person who commits the act of adultery, is not the same as someone who commits a violent rape, which is that much, more offensive. And a different case again would be that of someone who commits adultery with a relative whom the law has forbidden him to marry." (Lev. 20)
His Holiness points out two things that may put some of you at ease: he talks about "compounding" of sins. E.g. committing adultery in your heart is one sin, but committing adultery in your heart, then pursuing that sin further and then committing physical adultery is "compounded sinning."
His Holiness says:
"A person who wishes to do something violent, but doesn't do it, and just keeps it in his mind, is not the same as someone who actually carries out his violence in physical or verbal form, who actually does harm to another person and, by his action, causes others to stumble. The one who only thinks about stealing, is different from the one who actually steals by force. At this point, though, sin becomes multiple or compound, which means that it consists of a number of sins together."
The other thing His Holiness points out is that certain sins are equal in that they exclude us from heaven, but their degrees of punishment differ.
His Holiness says:
"Sins are actually alike in that they exclude one from the
Kingdom of Heaven, but even those who go to hell suffer different degrees of torture, which is why the Lord said, referring to all the cities which rejected Him and rejected the faith and rejected His disciples: " Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Matt. 10:15)
The words 'more tolerable... than' prove the difference in
punishment based on the difference in offence."
Publican, I vastly quoted from His Holiness to show beyond doubt that I am doing very little "interpretation" of His Holiness' views, instead, I merely summarized what he said.
All quotes from His Holiness are taken from the English translation of "SINS ARE NOT EQUAL IN DEGREE, NOR IN PUNISHMENT", Section 21 of H.H.'s book "Many Years With People's Questions, Part III."
Biboboy
posted on Mar 16, 2008 - 03:16 AM
Agape,
To make a long story short: if all sins are equal, then God wouldn't have asked for different kinds of sacrifices for different sins in the Old Testament, and we wouldn't have different kinds of penances for different sins in the New Testament.
_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).
"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.
In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!
Meghalo05
posted on Mar 16, 2008 - 04:25 AM
Blessed Lent,
So then why did Ananias and Sapphira die when they lied? If it was a simple lie you would think since its a "simple sin" the penalty should be simple? But they died because of their sin. Christ himself said that someone who has an impure thought has already committed adultery in his heart. What do you mean different penances for different sins? I would love for you to elaborate on that. Any sin requires the same repentance and confession correct? I had a long discussion with my FOC and he said that this was the Orthodox doctrine and the interpretation of St. John's verses. All sin is emnity with God, so how can we classify those that are "worse" than others. Then we enter the whole mortal vs. venial sin debate. I always understood the Orthodox doctrine was that all sin is sin. None is greater than the other. But the one who commits adultery is the same as the one who committs an impure thought, or lies, etc. If sins were indeed more extreme than others, than you would think that a more in-depth form of repentance/confession was required of the very sinful thief, rather it was a simple statement, "Remember me Lord when you come into your kingdom". In my opinion, if we claim that some sins are more grand than others, than we will start to let the "venial" sins occur and not worry as they are only "small" sins. All sin is sin. Love to hear all your responses.
Glory to God in all Things
David_the_King
posted on Mar 16, 2008 - 06:36 AM
A thought compared to a genocide of people? Which is worse? I don't think anyone can make the claim that committing mass genocide, killing millions of God's children whom he loves and thinking a bad word in your head can be the same thing.
That's my 2 cents
_________________
David_the_King
Co-Webmaster and Administrator
coptichymns.net
http://www.coptichymns.net/
Truth.Seeker
posted on Mar 16, 2008 - 05:35 PM
Meghalo,
First, to address Ananias and Sapphira. We read this in Acts and right after St. Luke writes this, he says then fear spread throughout Christianity. That was the goal of the Apostles - to give a warning to people that this Christianity stuff is serious business and to equate dealings with the Apostles as dealings with the Holy Spirit, St. Peter said, "you have not lied to men, but to the Holy Spirit."
Do we see people who lie in church fall dead nowadays? No, the penalty against Ananias and Sapphira was to make an example of them. In fact, the story of Ananias and Sapphira has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about because the punishment against them was physical, and what we are talking about is "Judgment AFTER death."
To me it's very interesting that you point out what your FOC says. If we are going to argue from authority, shouldn't you be more concerned about what the POPE says more than your FOC?
I think you should try to refute some of the arguments that His Holiness put forth. Why did Christ say that Sodom and Gamorrah, on the day of judgment, would rise up and CONDEMN the cities that did not believe Christ? Certainly He was making the point that EVEN Sodom and Gamorrah are better than those cities. If all sins are the same, this wouldn't make sense.
How about answering my argument that if St. John, by non-deadly sins, is talking about those we repented and confessed for, would be asking us to pray for people whose sins have already been forgiven? That's very awkward.
That said, again, let me point out that deadly sins are "equal" in that they exclude us from Heaven, but they are not equal in degree nor in punishment, i.e. punishment in hell will be handed out according to the individuals actions. Our Lord Christ EXPLICITLY said "Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Matt. 10:15)
Reward in Heaven will also be handed out according to what the individual does. Many times in the New Testament it is said that each one will be given according to his works. In fact, if you've ever heard the different "crowns" given to certain saints within the Church - this is what's being talked about.
You said you always understood the Orthodox doctrine to be that "all sin is sin." Well, YES, that's the whole point, St. John says, "all unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin leading to death." We wouldn't be calling it "non-deadly sin" if it wasn't sin. We're saying these are sins that do not lead to Hell.
KEEP IN MIND: these are sins committed unintentionally and out of ignorance, i.e. the person who committed them doesn't even KNOW he committed the sin. If the standard is "confess every and all sins," then we're all going to hell because you can't confess sins you didn't even know you committed! This is nothing like the Catholic idea of classifying sins into venial than mortal than saying "penance and purgatory" is the answer for venial.
lowlyman
posted on Mar 17, 2008 - 03:21 PM
Truth.Seeker,
from my perspective, it clear that not all sins are the same. But should the church classify them and assigned probable judgement (afer death) for their doers?
From Truth.Seeker:Meghalo,
First, to address Ananias and Sapphira. We read this in Acts and right after St. Luke writes this, he says then fear spread throughout Christianity. That was the goal of the Apostles - to give a warning to people that this Christianity stuff is serious business and to equate dealings with the Apostles as dealings with the Holy Spirit, St. Peter said, "you have not lied to men, but to the Holy Spirit."
Do we see people who lie in church fall dead nowadays? No, the penalty against Ananias and Sapphira was to make an example of them. In fact, the story of Ananias and Sapphira has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about because the punishment against them was physical, and what we are talking about is "Judgment AFTER death."
To me it's very interesting that you point out what your FOC says. If we are going to argue from authority, shouldn't you be more concerned about what the POPE says more than your FOC?
I think you should try to refute some of the arguments that His Holiness put forth. Why did Christ say that Sodom and Gamorrah, on the day of judgment, would rise up and CONDEMN the cities that did not believe Christ? Certainly He was making the point that EVEN Sodom and Gamorrah are better than those cities. If all sins are the same, this wouldn't make sense.
How about answering my argument that if St. John, by non-deadly sins, is talking about those we repented and confessed for, would be asking us to pray for people whose sins have already been forgiven? That's very awkward.
That said, again, let me point out that deadly sins are "equal" in that they exclude us from Heaven, but they are not equal in degree nor in punishment, i.e. punishment in hell will be handed out according to the individuals actions. Our Lord Christ EXPLICITLY said "Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Matt. 10:15)
Reward in Heaven will also be handed out according to what the individual does. Many times in the New Testament it is said that each one will be given according to his works. In fact, if you've ever heard the different "crowns" given to certain saints within the Church - this is what's being talked about.
You said you always understood the Orthodox doctrine to be that "all sin is sin." Well, YES, that's the whole point, St. John says, "all unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin leading to death." We wouldn't be calling it "non-deadly sin" if it wasn't sin. We're saying these are sins that do not lead to Hell.
KEEP IN MIND: these are sins committed unintentionally and out of ignorance, i.e. the person who committed them doesn't even KNOW he committed the sin. If the standard is "confess every and all sins," then we're all going to hell because you can't confess sins you didn't even know you committed! This is nothing like the Catholic idea of classifying sins into venial than mortal than saying "penance and purgatory" is the answer for venial.
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