coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

mzaki

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 11:05 AM

I'm curious enough to hear some of your opinions about this subject that I am willing to risk this thread turning into another discussion about M. Ibrahim Ayad. I certainly hope that is not what happens.

As probably a good number of you know, M. Ibrahim Ayad recently recorded teaching tapes for the Feast of the Entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday). There were a few things on those tapes that were new, among them a recording of a melismatic Psalm 150. It is a construction of the Sherat.

I am wondering what your opinions are regarding this hymn. Will you adopt it, learn it, teach it, and chant it in your churches?

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mina.

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Meghalo05

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 01:16 PM

Mina,

You read my mind! I was just about to post regarding where I can find a recording. Where can I find it? Is it basically in the tune of Etaven?

Glory to God in all Things

abe

Joined: Jan 18, 2005 | Posts: 292
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mzaki

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 01:56 PM

Abe,

There is nowhere on the internet to get this recording, to my knowledge. The tapes (4 tapes - Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday) are less than a year old. If you remind me, I can get you a copy the next time I see you, whenever that will be.

Yes, it is essentially A=l a=l a=l a=l@ I=yc P=,c `psyri `mV] afse `eqoun `eIeroucalym constructed into the tune of the Sherat (which, at least in the beginning, is the same as etauen). It is followed by the first verse of Psalm 150 in the second tune of the Sherat, I believe (I haven't listened to it in a while).

Anyway, looking forward to hearing opinions regarding this.

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mina.

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Epideacon

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 02:07 PM

Well, I personally have not heard the recording. I really want to get these tapes though; they seem to be causing a big controversy. Anywho, I don't think that rakkabing one lahn with the tune of another lahn is wrong. I think it is probably the best option we have as far as composing new hymns which still have that authentic ancient Egyptian tune to them. In fact most of the inventory of hymns in the Church today are like that. Whenever you learn a new hymn you always find people saying, "This next part is just like the part from that one other hymn that we learned last year" or something like that.

Having said that, I don't think that I would adopt M. Ayad's teaching for the following reasons:

1) I don't think that Psalm 150 for Palm Sunday needed a melismatic tune. I think it was fine the way it was. I think that, for Psalm 150, as long as it has a response to it, it's fine. There are some seasons, like Kiahk and Jonah's fast, for which there is no response; and this causes confusion as some people try to make a response up that's not original.

2) It's very funny how, nowadays, people are always after Abouna and the deacons to shorten up the hymns so we can finish faster, and here come I. Ayad with an even longer version of a perfectly well tuned and needless to say "nice and short" hymn. Not only will people go nuts at hearing this, but I think that they will even refuse to learn it in the first place. Very few people know the sherat tune as it is. Do you know it? For all seasons? I know the sherat tunes just because I like memorizing hymns. But I have never, ever encountered a church where the sherat tunes are said in their entirety every Saturday, for all seasons during Vespers prayers.

So, in conclusion, nothing against I. Ayad, but I just don't think that it would be practical to adopt this tune. And of course, that's all aside from the authenticity and originality and credibility of sources, yada yada yada arguments that our beloved scholars on this site always like to bring up!

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 03:06 PM

I agree with Epideacon on this one, i don't believe that it would be practical to adopt this tune(haven't heard yet) and i feel that the tune its in now(the short one) is much more reasonable especially since its a looong liturgy anyway no reason to make it feel any longer for the cong who don't want to here long hymns plus the hymns from the general funeral. I also agree that not many churches do the sherat during vespers praises. We only do the annual one when we have time and of course when the season is annual. but generally we skip it. Don't get me wrong here i love Mlm Ibrahim Ayad but adapting some of the things he does does not seem that practical at least not in churches with small Cong. Churches in egypt is a different story, in egypt the cong is soo big that it would be wise to adapt it.

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 03:16 PM

I need to hear this recording! If this is the case, then the Feast of the Cross is the same thing, except it would have the words Iyc P,c `pSyri `m`V] Vyetauasf `epi`ctauroc.

If someone has these tapes, can they please upload them here to the site for everyone to hear. You do not have to put a download link, maybe just a streaming file.

Oh and Epideacon, at my church we say the long sherat for feasts. Annually we do it short, but for Great Lent/Kiahk and other times, we do it long.

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 03:24 PM

no no, download link! lol

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abahoor

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 03:31 PM

I don't think it is that big of a deal...atleast not for the Palm Sunday recordings. because he already did this before for Resurrection. We spoke to him and He said we have a source that says in special occasions that have special psalm 150 responses; you can rakeb that on the sherat, which he did in Resurrection rite and recently for Palm Sunday. So....

Of course i agree with the practical answers you guys had concerning time and so forth.

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 04:34 PM

Resurrection already had a long psalm 150 tune. Fr. Mettias records it for Pentecost.

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mzaki

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 04:59 PM

From David_the_King:Resurrection already had a long psalm 150 tune. Fr. Mettias records it for Pentecost.

That is correct. The Great Joyful Psalm 150 has been recorded for the Feast of the Pentecost by Fr. Mettias Nasr, and for the Feast of the Resurrection by M. Tewfik.

The version we have from M. Ibrahim Ayad is construction of the Joyful Sherat and does not follow the teaching of Fr. Mettias or M. Tewfik. In a previous thread, I was trying to get some insight as to why M. Ibrahim did this instead of just adopting the existing tune. Nobody really knew the answer. In our church, for the Joyful Psalm 150, we learned the tune taught by M. Tewfik and Fr. Mettias as it does not make sense to disregard what they have handed down for a construction of another hymn.

However, this is a different situation, because, to my knowledge, there is no known recording of a melismatic Psalm 150 for the Feast of the Entry into Jerusalem or for the Feast of the Cross.

The point of my post was not to ask about issues of practicality. In many churches, ours included, the only time when people actually don't mind a long hymn is during the Distribution, because Communion does take a bit of time anyway.

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mina.

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 05:09 PM

Right. I agree. In my church, we say all of the long introductions to things, even on weekdays. The only one I have never heard of is this one for Palm Sunday. I would love a recording to hear this hymn.

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egyptianhomeboy

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 05:53 PM

Yeah, I would like to hear this as well. Do we have to buy them ourselves from Egypt or are there other ways of ordering them?

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 06:55 PM

If you get a copy, let me hear it from you =)

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Epideacon

posted on Mar 18, 2008 - 09:54 PM

From mzaki:From David_the_King:Resurrection already had a long psalm 150 tune. Fr. Mettias records it for Pentecost.

That is correct. The Great Joyful Psalm 150 has been recorded for the Feast of the Pentecost by Fr. Mettias Nasr, and for the Feast of the Resurrection by M. Tewfik.

The version we have from M. Ibrahim Ayad is construction of the Joyful Sherat and does not follow the teaching of Fr. Mettias or M. Tewfik. In a previous thread, I was trying to get some insight as to why M. Ibrahim did this instead of just adopting the existing tune. Nobody really knew the answer. In our church, for the Joyful Psalm 150, we learned the tune taught by M. Tewfik and Fr. Mettias as it does not make sense to disregard what they have handed down for a construction of another hymn.

I. Ayad could not have adopted the known melismatic tune for the feasts in this case because that melismatic tune belongs under the category of "Joyful or Farayhee" whereas here, we are talking about Palm Sunday or "Sha3neeny" tune. This is a very interesting tune since it is only officially used literally three times in the year: Palm Sunday and the two Feasts of the Cross. That said, there are many instances where we hear it besides those three, like tamgeeds (the last 3 Kyrie Eleisons), and I think maybe weddings; but they don't count as far as rakkabing alhan goes. I think Ayad made the right choice in using an already well known tune to rakkab and didn't just make one up by himself.


The point of my post was not to ask about issues of practicality. In many churches, ours included, the only time when people actually don't mind a long hymn is during the Distribution, because Communion does take a bit of time anyway.

Right, that's true. I was speaking on behalf of my own church. We have sooo little people that on weekdays, we barely get finished with Psalm 150, and on a normal Sunday we fit in Psalm 150 and possibly a few lines of an Arabic madeha. Of course on Palm Sunday the number of people goes up, but not by a lot though.

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mikokiko

posted on Mar 19, 2008 - 03:58 PM

This is funny, because I always thought and expected the Psalm 150 for Palm Sunday would be in the "Sha3neen" tune, but was taught that this was only for the Feast of the Cross, but on Palm Sunday you are supposed to employ the "faray7i" tune instead, as Albair records in his Rites Encyclopedia on copticheritage.org: http://copticheritage.org/PagEd+index-p ... 758.phtml. Oddly enough, I was surprised to notice this occurring for the first time a couple years back, and simply dismissed it as wrong tuqs. I guess not.

I am not sure where Ibrahim Ayad gets his tuqs but I trust Albair more. I am just not sure why we use the joyful tune for Psalm 150.

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abahoor

posted on Mar 19, 2008 - 04:11 PM

From mikokiko:
I am not sure where Ibrahim Ayad gets his tuqs but I trust Albair more. I am just not sure why we use the joyful tune for Psalm 150.

He didn't do festive tune. He have it recorded with the Logn Sha'nini Sherat tune.....which is understandable considering his theory.

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mzaki

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 12:59 PM

mikokiko,

Are you suggesting that Psalm 150 for the Feast of the Entry into Jerusalem should be chanted with the joyful tune, and not the sha3aneeny tune?

This would essentially fly in the face of every teaching that I have heard...ever. Has anyone else heard this done or even described before?

mikokiko and others, some primary sources on this would be great, thanks.

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mina.

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Biboboy

posted on Mar 20, 2008 - 01:49 PM

Agape,

Psalm 150 for Palm Sunday is chanted in the sha3aneeny tune. Albair records it this way in the Hymns Encyclopedia.

The Rites Encyclopedia was mis-translated! I'll fix that problem...

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"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

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mikokiko

posted on Mar 21, 2008 - 12:34 AM

Man! I would have said the same thing, but the leader in our church, isn't always clear with the rites and taught it to everybody this way, s oa lot of them are so used to it being like this through the years that they think this is the real tuqs. And by coincidence Albair writes it in the joyful tune in his book (or was that your error Biboboy? I can't read Arabic, but I'm told that's what it says in Albair's book). Anyhow, I'm going to work hard to see to it that we don't say it in the joyful tune this year, because I always shrieked after hearing it.

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 22, 2008 - 09:18 AM

Dear all,
I agree with some points of epideacon, and jydeacon, and most points of mzaki. I personally don't like the fact that Cantor Ibrahim constructs hymns onto another. Especially when that comes to Psalm 150, I don't think like all of you pointed out that it follows the same hymn of the "sharat" in one ceremonial. Take the annual ceremonial, the joyful (although similar), the Kiahky, and the Lenten remains to be heard. I think that the only rationale in Cantor Ibrahim's mindset is to ease it up for people and deacons chanting longer hymns during Communion, but that doesn't sit right with me. I am not quite sure about what abahoor pointed out that one source indicated to Cantor Ibrahim that it is legitimate to construct the longer tune of Psalm 150 on sharat. That I suppose will help lose the more hymns that some churches like David_the_King's started teaching. I hope that doesn't happen. Please please please don't get me wrong again; I am 100% positive that Cantor Ibrahim did what no one else would have ever imagined in preserving the Coptic hymns, but authentic hymns should be more respected. I even came across this debate that some people didn't like the re-composition of the Cyrilian Liturgy by HICS simply because it is not authentic and because the hymns were originally lost. While I do want to see revival of hymns in the church, but strictly speaking I would like to hear them revived in their authentic tunes. God knows if that will ever be achieved.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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David_the_King

posted on Mar 22, 2008 - 09:48 PM

From ophadeece:Dear all,
That I suppose will help lose the more hymns that some churches like David_the_King's started teaching. I hope that doesn't happen.

I am confused by this statement. Sorry but what do you mean? lol im really sick so I am not functioning properly, sorry!

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 22, 2008 - 10:13 PM

Dear David_the_King,
I meant that the longer versions of those hymns will be lost if we just use constructing hymns on others and ease it up on ourselves then the result is known, which is losing the great heritage we are trying to revive. That is all I meant with all due respect to Ibrahim Ayad, not taking anything away from his fervour and enthusiasm.
God bless you all and pray for us all

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