coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 05:31 PM

Lately, I have been unable to truly contemplate and focus on the words which we pray ever sunday and for any other service for that matter. I guess it does not help when people are so eager to have the liturgy be as short as possible which forces the deacons to move faster making it even harder to really concentrate on what is going on. I guess the whole point behind this topic is to see what others do to help them focus on the readings/hymns/prayers and so on. I will be the first to admit that sometimes, during a hymn, it becomes more of a chore than something that is from the heart and it loses its meaning. This is because it is difficult to concentrate and not have any other thoughts in your head such as things like "am i going to slow" or "can the congregation hear the lead deacon" or sometimes we try to make the hymn more of a performance than anything else. Anyway, like i said before, the whole point of this topic is to see what others do regarding issues like these. Thanks, and i appreciate your replies.

GB
Tony

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ophadeece

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 05:53 PM

Dear Tony,
I am someone who is fought by these thoughts as you are, and maybe more. But I taught myself (and trying to learn to conform to my own teaching) to try to concentrate on the words and the beauty of the hymn, rather than every thing else around me, and then God will complete. Yes, there are things which we all unintentionally think about, but praying to God while you are singing the hymn to keep these thoughts away will pay off, and God does help us asking Him, especially in this sacred time. Try to be mindful of what the hymns say, and to consider it like a dialogue between you and the saints, or the priests, or the pope (in their hymns), and also care for the performance with other deacons; nothing is wrong with that. God help us all.
God bless you and pray for us a lot

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 06:37 PM

Ophadeece,

thank you for your advice, i will do my best to follow it. Anyone else willing to participate in this discussion?

Pray for me
Tony

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 25, 2008 - 06:57 PM

Hey Tony,
I know how you feel completely man, i too have these exact same problems and am looking for away to solve it, i find that by sometimes just going and standing in the alter where no one can see me or hear me i am able to focus better and the distractions are gone for when i need to pray. I think really the best thing to do is close your eyes while praying or chanting the hymns and to not just worry about that stuff. I would love to hear others opinions and advise on this as well.

God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness

Joined: Jan 16, 2007 | Posts: 131

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 26, 2008 - 08:58 PM

I really hope that atleast one more person can contribute to this discussion, i am in really strong need of it. Thanks again.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 27, 2008 - 04:24 AM

Problem is that most deacons focus so much on the chanting and the tune of the hymns that it's not even about the words anymore. (If you've noticed that I haven't been very active on the site is because there's a bunch of useless discussions and arguments about a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with salvation). The largest thread I've seen on the forum is how we should pronounce Greek words in the Coptic Liturgy. Frankly, I couldn't care less.

SO, that would be my advice. Forget the chanting and the tunes, and just focus on the words. You seem like you know your hymns, so it's not like you're in the process of learning them (and if you're saying them in the Liturgy, I'm sure you've already learned them). So, forget the congreation and the lead deacon, just focus on the words.

You can try something else. Take a break from deaconing for a few weeks, and just stand with the congregation.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 214

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 27, 2008 - 05:10 AM

Truth.Seeker,

I really appreciate your advice. However, I believe it is important to make the Liturgy and enjoyable experience; after all, it is a feast in which we partake of the body and blood of Christ himself. I am not saying that each and every hymn is a performance, but what i am saying is that when you chant a hymn, you should say it to the best of your ability so that everyone can follow along and enjoy the hymn without having to hear nashaz. People are really turned off when they hear someone who is completely off and it distracts others from focusing on the words and the prayer.

Since I am the lead deacon in my church, it also becomes a problem because of the fact that this has happened very recently, and i feel a heavy burden that is being put on me. I guess its difficult to focus because of the fact that i am more focused on whats going on and getting ready to respond to abouna, while also making sure that i am not going too slow and that everyone can hear me. Also, i cant go back to being in the congregation because i have a responsibility and service to my church. Speed is also an issue in my church which makes it really hard to really meditate on what is being said. Also, I know this is going to sound bad but i think it also may have to do with repitition of praying the same liturgy every sunday (st. Basil). For the past couple days abouna has been praying the Cryillian liturgy and i seem to pay more attention i guess because we hardly ever pray this liturgy. Anyway, i would appreciate more replies, thanks.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 27, 2008 - 01:54 PM

I understand where you're coming from. Certainly, if you're the lead deacon, then just joining the congregation for a few weeks isn't really an option.

What I'd say is that the hymns that the congregation is really familiar with are the annual ones or popular seasonal ones (e.g. thok te ti gom). My guess is that these have probably become second nature to you.

The congregation doesn't really have the rare complex ones down. So, I wouldn't worry too much about how they're going to take it. In my experience on both sides of the iconostasis (taking a break from deaconing is what I did for your exact problem, and I experienced some of the most enjoyable Liturgies I remember), the congregation really only gets annoyed if the deacon is shouting, instead of chanting. So, as long as you're not shouting, I don't think they'll be agitated.

The speed thing is where I see the big problem. (I guess your point is that all these things put together is somewhat of a "perfect storm"). If you're rushed, you can't really focus on what's being said, instead you're focused on just getting it done. But if the speed thing has been around for a while, I'd say - it's a matter of adjusting.

Think about it this way: if the Liturgy was slower than what you take as "normal," then you switch to "normal," then you're going to think that "normal" is actually "fast." So, it's all a matter of perception. Perhaps if you take the thought that you're being rushed out of your head, it might help.

Interesting thing: I always do my responses really fast. We should switch churches, haha. (Also, when I'm doing my responses fast, I don't really feel that I'm going fast, so that's another point about perception).

I'd think that the fact that you do the Basil Liturgy so often, that kind of takes the "organizational" aspect out of it. I.e. you know where everything in the book is, you know how the responses go, etc...

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 214

the_youngest

posted on Mar 27, 2008 - 03:16 PM

hello tony

i face the same problem and i think that this topic that you introduced is great and it really does need to ask others to learn from their experiences

one thing that i noticed from on of the lead deacons at my church is that a lot of times i see tears coming down from him while he sings a hymn...and i think to myself about it say that i want to feel the same feeling when i sing a hymn

as my name suggests, i am the youngest, so i am not a pro at this, but i think a good habit that me and you should try to do is to say the psalms that are supposed to be said on the way to church because they allow to free your mind from everything and concentrate on him and your meeting with him

also another good habit that me and you should try is to read the words of the hymns at home so when you say them the words will come to your head and you will be able to concentrate on them

i hope to hear from others because this is a really important topic

Joined: Mar 14, 2008 | Posts: 9

tonyhabibi

posted on Mar 28, 2008 - 02:36 PM

I have been losing concentration at almost every sunday liturgy for the past 21 years . There are a bunch of reasons .,

One reason is this deacon in my church who is like 55 years old , and eats the mic , and whose voice is really high , and really shaky , its like someone is shaking his adams apple as he is singing , every hymn he gobbles , giveing little or no chnce to the others , Once i was saying a congregation response in english , and the the 55 year old deacon who has a huge accent , and cannot speak english good , started to say the hymn with me throwing me off , anyways , the other deacons told me to get closer to the mic , but i told them that i dont want people to think that im " TAKING OVER , OR HOGGING THE MIC " .... the deacons told me " just take over then " , cuz thats how it has become in our church , whomever can grab the mic first .

These issues help me to fall into sin also

pray for me , i have been in sin this entire lent .

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AMoussa01

posted on Mar 28, 2008 - 06:51 PM

I am sorry that you guys have to deal with this but it is time we try new techniques and ideas from others because going to a liturgy for 21 years and getting distracted is not a good thing. I feel that, most of the time, when the time comes to take communion, i dont really have my mindset that i am taking the body and blood of our Lord. I pray and do ask God to help me focus and really meditate on the Holies that He has given us. I even started to stand in the back for just a moment after taking communion and try to absorb what i had just gone through, but i feel that it is not enough. Something is missing. This is the feeling i get when i pray throughout the liturgy as well. That is why its important to me for someone to reply to these posts with a solution or idea as to how to deal with this. Thanks

GB & pray for me
Tony

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Ehab

posted on Mar 30, 2008 - 05:32 AM

Dear Tony,

I am in the same boat with you concerning this problem. In fact, its among my hardest struggles not just in chanting hymns but praying in general. It is often difficult not to fall into doing something just from the lips like reading the psalms or chanting the hymns. I often fall into doing this to the point where I may finish my prayers or finish an entire liturgy asking myself if I've prayed at all. This is a common problem which I don't think I would be wrong to say that every person in the church suffers from, not just the deacon. But there are ways to help us and move us to prayer from the heart.

I was once told that many of the long hymns in our church we inherited from our fathers the monks who purposely made the hymns longer in order to give them time to meditate on that hymn. And if you really meditate on some of the longer hymns (especially those of the midnight praises), you'll really begin to enjoy it. You begin to find new meaning each time you sing it. You can meditate on the words or even just the way the melody is composed can be a means of meditation (if it goes high or low or takes parts from other hymns, etc.) One of our goals as deacons is to be able to memorize and sing a hymn so well, that we don't need to concentrate on the hazzat or the tone or anything else, but rather we can entirely meditate on the words. In other words, we should be able to sing the tune so that its second nature to us and the tune does not take away from the meaning. At least I find this to be an important point, especially in longer hymns.

I think this is also good for the congregation to recognize. Rather than constantly be rushing, you can suggest to friends and others that the time when a longer hymn is being chanted is a good time for meditation and prayer by all the people. You don't have to be singing it to meditate on the meaning. Whenever I tell people this, they seem pleasantly surprised as if they didn't know or realize that this is a perfect time for prayer.

Also, you could always try to apply the words of the liturgy literally to yourself. "When we disobeyed Your commandment" - pray to yourself saying, "when I sinned against You Lord and disobeyed Your commandment." Or "You have not abandoned us to the end but have always visited us through Your holy prophets" - say "So many times Lord you should have left me and I would have deserved it, but You did not abandon me, You visited me through Your prophets in the Bible and even went so far as to send my Your own Son." Or at the time of the descent of the Holy Spirit "And this bread He makes into His holy body" - say "Please Father, send Your Holy Spirit upon me also and purify my body and by blood that I too could be sanctified and consecrated entirely to You." These are just a few small examples which help me.

As for the issue of speed, I wish I had a good answer for this. As a brother let me say that I feel like maybe these thoughts of "am I going too fast or too slow" or "am I loud enough" can be thoughts from the devil meant to make us fall. And I only say that because I know it all too well. Ask God to silence these thoughts and turn you heart towards Him throughout the Liturgy. Perhaps try and delegate tasks to others so that you don't have to deal with administrative things as much like passing out readings and choosing deacons to serve in the altar. Try to prepare what hymns need to be said before you come to church so that you will not spend time during the actual liturgy shuffling around looking for a deacon's book. Try to read the readings before coming in order to prepare yourself and be able to focus better.

In any case, God knows our weaknesses and looks at our hearts. He knows its difficult to pray the same liturgy and sing the same hymns repeatedly, but I trust that if we in the time of our youth can get through this time of struggle, God will open our eyes to really begin to see and appreciate the depth of the mystery of which we partake every sunday so unworthily.

I hope this helps a little and I also would like to hear other's opinions on this issue.

Pray for my weakness

Ehab

Joined: Sep 02, 2003 | Posts: 3

AMoussa01

posted on Mar 30, 2008 - 07:56 PM

Dear Ehab,

That was a very nice post! thank you very much for replying to this thread and providing all of us with ways to deal with our situation. Thanks again!

GB
Tony

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jydeacon

posted on Mar 30, 2008 - 08:04 PM

Thanks Ehab, I'm sure all will benefit from your post as much as we did

Joined: Jan 16, 2007 | Posts: 131