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aguirguis

posted on Apr 17, 2008 - 09:06 PM

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Romans 13:1-2

Is St. Paul talking about clergy (bishops priests etc...) or government officials (president, congress etc...)?

_________________
Andrew
"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. " MT 5:14-16

Joined: Apr 27, 2003 | Posts: 191
Location: Boston, MA USA

Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 17, 2008 - 09:12 PM

Government officials. Just keep in mind this only applies if the authority is not trying to make you do something that is against God. Granted, that's not written, but it's easily deduced. If God is the greatest authority, then we should follow Him first, and follow our secular authorities second. As long as the secular authority is not commanding something against God, we must follow it. Stories of emperors ordering martyrs to worship idols and being told "no" come to mind.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411

aguirguis

posted on Apr 19, 2008 - 07:35 PM

If a government official is trying to make you do something against God than wouldn't that contradict what St. Paul is saying "for there is no authority except that which God has established"?

Joined: Apr 27, 2003 | Posts: 191
Location: Boston, MA USA

Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 20, 2008 - 01:15 PM

In the Bible, there are seemingly absolute statements that can't be absolute compared to other parts of the Bible.

Example:

1 John 29: If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Does St. John really mean anyone who does something good is born of Christ? Of course not, an atheist giving to charity is not born of Christ.

So, with that in mind, I'd say St. Paul just means all those who do not require something against God should be followed. If you look at verse 3 following the verses you mentioned: "3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil."

I think this is really the point here, St. Paul's saying the only reason you would want to disobey a ruler is if you want to do something bad. Of course worshipping God is not bad, so if your ruler wants to make you worship idols, then he is a terror to good works, not to evil.

So, I think that is the implied caveat.

The Bible uses the absolutes "all" and "no one" many times, many of which shouldn't be taken in that sense. For example, there are verses that talk about how EVERYONE in cities came out to greet someone. Technically, this would include people who are on their death-bed dying as well.

After much thought into this subject, I came to the conclusion that "all" just means "many," and "no one," just means "a few."

Granted, from logic, "all" should mean "all," and "no one" should mean "no one," but we don't know what the apostles had in mind when they wrote the gospels/epistles. People were probably not as "logically active" as we are in their times, so perhaps "all" was the best way to convey "many."

Perhaps a dive into the Greek may be helpful.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411