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geomekhaiel

posted on Apr 22, 2008 - 05:39 PM

Hello Everyone!

I'm hopping that everyone is having an amazing beneficial Holy Week and not wasting it on the internet writing research papers; like me!

I would have thought that the forums were going to be closed for Holy Week...but I guess not!

Anyhow....

So, I've been working on a research paper for one of my classes on Zoroastrianism: it's theology, beliefs, history, rituals, communal life, etc... While reading about the existence of Dualism in Zoroastrian doctrine I found a great deal of controversy and began wondering what is the Orthodox view on the subject Dualism. Do we believe that dualism exists? If so, to what extent? If not, why?

I understand that most people are not going to have access to the text books and resources which I have on Zoroastrianism, but if one simply googles they will find a decent amount of info on this subject.

I have my own thoughts on this subject and my own ideas on what Orthodox views already are....but I'm interested in seeing what others think before I present what I believe is correct.

Thanks in advance,
George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 23, 2008 - 01:28 AM

Deleted for repetitiveness.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411

Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 23, 2008 - 01:28 AM

Deleted for repetitiveness.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411

Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 23, 2008 - 01:28 AM

By "dualism" do you mean the fight between good and evil? I'll assume the answer is "yes" for my response.

This is actually an interesting topic. The easy answer is we're born in the Image of God, therefore we have an inherent "imprint" of His goodness. That little sliver of goodness is what I understand the "seed" that the sower plants to mean (referring to the Biblical parable).

We had much more of that sliver when we started, the fall made it smaller. However, because we do have that little goodness, when God calls us, there is a possibility of us answering. Then if we answer, He'll give us more, and when we don't answer, even what we have will be taken away from us. I take this to mean that God will stop helping us fight off the devil.

So, there's a fight between us and the devil, with God on our side and trying to help us defeat the devil. I wouldn't call it a fight between God and the devil, I'd call it a fight between us and the devil. We can go over to him or we can go over to God.

I said this is the easy answer because I'm assuming the devil is established, i.e. the angel has fell. Of course the interesting question is that without the devil to pull people/angels to evil, how did Lucifer fall?

I think the usual answer is that God didn't create evil, but that evil is the deviation from God. Fair enough. I'd wonder how the devil found out about how to deviate from God though. Perhaps the answer is that since only God is all good, all of us are wanting. So, there is room for deviating.

Another interesting question is whether we can deviate after the Resurrection. The answer seems to be no. The "why" is the issue (especially in the context of free will). I could write my thoughts, but this may be off-topic, let me know.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 411

mikokiko

posted on Apr 23, 2008 - 06:32 AM

Evil is non-existence, it doesn't really exist, it is sin that is so characteristic of nothingness. It only appears to exist, because it is "found" in existing beings, that is, since we do not have the fullness of Life that is found in God, the more we stray away from the Concrete Existing Being of the Universe, the Source of all Life, the more we turn to nothing and fall into sin, that is death, the very lack of existence. It is when we mingle nothingness with existing beings that we find what is called sin. This is made possible by free will that makes our virtues virtuous, and our vices evil, but free will itself is neither good nor bad. It will only be good depending on the will of those who use it reasonably, and evil on those illogically.

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1001

Peter

posted on Apr 23, 2008 - 11:10 PM

Look at the writings of the Fathers in response to Manicheanism,as it is another dualistic religion which borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism, and some would say evolved from.

Joined: Mar 18, 2003 | Posts: 423
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Biboboy

posted on Apr 27, 2008 - 02:52 PM

Christ is risen!

Guess what? The resurrection of Christ is evidence that dualism, in any form, is false.

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Noosa_1978

posted on Apr 28, 2008 - 02:47 AM

Ekristos Anasti!!!!!!!!!!
What is Zoroastrianism ?

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Location: Jersey City, NJ

garywbush

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 04:58 AM

Nestorians like Zoroastrians believe in dualism. Both state that in Christ, there are two persons, one good God and one evil man. Saint Nestorius of Constantinople taught this doctrine, which is the basis of Orthodox Christianity as upheld by the Synod of Chalcedon.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 11:36 AM

Nestorius, far from beint a Saint, was excommunicated by non-Chalcedonians and Chalcedonians alike. The Council of Chalcedon explicitly condemned him. Stop writing fiction.

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AnthonyXM

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 02:25 PM

There is no "evil man" in Christ.
That is a falsehood I will not hear.

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mikokiko

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 07:36 PM

Gary, where are you getting your facts from? Nestorius didn't teach that there was an Evil Man and a Good Man in Christ. He simply taught that there was a Man named Jesus Who was Good, and then the Spirit of the Logos, came and dwelt in this Man, so that it was not really a true incarnation of the Logos, in the sense that the Logos Himself became Man, and united His two natures into One Person and Being. He believed that Christ was two persons juxtaposed with one another.

Dualism on the other hand, believes that there are two Great Powers in the Universe. One Being Good (What you might call God), and the other Evil (what you might call Satan). But at heart, this ideology turns out to be false, because Power itself is something Good, so that nothing can be completely evil (which is true Evil is essentially non-existence).

Even Satan has to borrow from what is Good to exist, for even He was created (and fell). Secondly the fact that there have been Two Separate Infinites existing from eternity is a complete contradiction. Because then they could not be Infinite and Absolute. Infinity requires that which is Infinite to be One, Without Any Limits. This Other Being would Limit the Good Being its Power, which is absurd.

God Bless

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1001

AnthonyXM

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 10:27 PM

If I were to broach this idea to blessed Abba Anthony he would simply turn away, with wisdom.
Of the snares evil sets for the faithful idle talk is one of the worst; it is worth nothing, born of the sin of sloth. It sets men to argument, then anger.
It is perilous to give such things more than a curt dismissal.
I turn away.

God bless you.

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Hands to work, Hearts to God

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mikokiko

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 10:31 PM

This whole forum is about discussion? Discussion can bring forth fruit. Indeed if it ends in anger then it is vain, but not all discussion is of such nature.

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1001

AnthonyXM

posted on Jun 01, 2008 - 10:45 PM

Beloved one,
if this is the same Gary W Bush I have heard of elsewhere, then his sole purpose is to set off political dissension among us.
Avoid this snare.

God bless you.

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for St Anthony
Hands to work, Hearts to God

Joined: May 26, 2008 | Posts: 25