coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

beshoyg

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 06:01 AM

So I know this issue must have been discussed somewhere before, and I know it tends to be quite controversial. I am just trying to read up more about the issue, learn both perspectives, and maybe find comfort in some convincing arguments. So please direct me to any past discussions or references you may have on the issue.

Basically, the question is nothing new, why are we still using so much Coptic in our services when almost no one understands the language? I have never been one to get frustrated by this issue, as I genuinely love the Coptic hymns of the Church, but for the first time this year, because of the many readings in Holy Week, I was having difficulty understanding why the overuse of Coptic. I am referring to the reading of the prophecies, the psalms and parts of the gospels in Coptic. It was entirely unintelligble to me, and to the best of my knowledge, to everyone else in the Church. So why are we doing it? Why is it so important? Is Coptic a sacred language? Is there something to learn from the Catholic Church and the use of Latin?

I can understand why some of the longer hymns that are passed down in very specific ways are sung in Coptic such as Pekethronos, Golgotha, etc though I still do believe we can preserve the hymns and give them even more power by carefully translating them. Nonetheless, for the time being, I can easily accept the use of Coptic for these hymns. But the prophecies, gospels and psalms in Coptic were beyond my understanding.

My own obersvation has been that whenever certain hymns that are normally prayed in Coptic are prayed in Arabic or English, the congregation tends to become more lively and involved. An example I remember was from a recent retreat where after each verse from Apenchois (of the Great Lent) was sung in Coptic, it was repeated in English. There was a huge difference in the involvement of the congregation, and I could tell many people were delighted to be able to pray such a beautiful hymn while contemplating its meaning (without the need for mental translation).

All perspectives and references are welcome! I need some convincing before I can really feel comfortable again with the use of Coptic in the cases I mentioned above. But, I'm here to learn!

Thank you, and please pray for me.

Beshoy

Joined: Apr 30, 2008 | Posts: 7

David_the_King

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 06:55 AM

I am going to do a quick post and maybe reply later. Watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0349&hl=en

Bishop Rafael explains the importance of Coptic and that the congregation NEEDS to know Coptic. They should know it. It is 20 mins in the video.

One more thing is that we have to preserve something very very sacred. PaulS gave a great lesson and used this example. Our church and our hymns and language is something very very precious. Picture the most precious thing you have, the most important thing to you. Now give it to your child. And tell them to absolutely watch over it and take GREAT care of it. Or if someone gave it to you, you would be keeping great great care of it. Well its the same thing here. Coptic is that sacred thing and so is the hymns, etc. We should not change it because it is PERFECT the way it is. We cannot argue with it, nor change what it is. We have to preserve it the EXACT way we received it, which is why M. Mikhail is such a huge figure in our church and Dr. Moftah did such a great job of doing just that. They spent their lives learning and collecting this hymn in order for us to keep it the same and 'clean it' and make it better and last longer. Our church fathers fought hard to keep these. If it was that simple then the Pope would declare Arabic and English and any other language of an area would override Coptic and we would not pray it.

That's my 2 cents. God Bless and Pray for me

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beshoyg

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 07:27 AM

Hi David,

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your explanation. The video was actually really interesting too. I found it interesting how Anba Roufail explained that our Church doesn't mind translating the Liturgy and Tasbeha into other languages, which was a good reminder to me that even though we do preserve Coptic, the Church USUALLY does NOT do so in an unreasonable way.

He also made the argument that some hymns cannot be accurately translated into Arabic from Coptic, but to be honest, I am not sure that I entirely agree with this. I have heard some very accurate and beautiful translations into English of simple hymns (such as the annual Agios) to more complicated hymns (such as Apetjeek Evol). I know I do not have the most musical of ears but the hymns sounded very natural:) As I mentioned before though, I understand why the Church would use Coptic in these hymns. My issue is mainly with the examples I mentioned in my last post.

I guess I see that Coptic is very precious in that much of our Church's history is documented in Coptic, many books were written in Coptic, and all (or most of) our hymns are in Coptic. Thus, Coptic should be studied so that the history, the books and hymns are understood and translated; but does that mean we should use it in our services when none of us understand it?

Here are my questions:

Even if we learn how to read Coptic, will we ever understand it as well as English or Arabic seeing that all our communication and education is one of these other two languages?

Shouldn't we pray and worship God in the language we feel most comfortable with and the language we understand most?

Shouldn't we make sure that all Church readings are read in a language the congregation is familiar with?

Isn't the purpose of any language simply to express our ideas?

Isn't Coptic just a language at the end of the day?

Aren't all languages imperfect in expressing ideas, whether Coptic, Greek, Latin or English?

Thanks again and please pray for me,

Beshoy

Joined: Apr 30, 2008 | Posts: 7

beshoyg

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 07:37 AM

David, did you just add a section to your post? hahah

I just read it again, and I noticed a whole additional section on Mlm Mikhail and Dr. Ragheb Moftah. hahah.

I agree that we are truly indebted to these two great men for the preservation of our hymns, which I genuinely believe have some of the most beautiful tunes that move the spirit. Strangely enough, I just finished writing a paper on Dr. Ragheb Moftah and Coptic hymns.

I am by no means suggesting we remove Coptic hymns from our services. As I mentioned before, for the hymns that are too complicated for proper or perfect translation, I would be the first to stand up against any translation. Having said that though, I think the beauty of our hymns is in their tune and sound, not the language.

Again, my main issue is not with these hymns. It is more regarding the readings which are still done in Coptic.

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jydeacon

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 01:53 PM

Great response David, even if it was a bit short , the hymns of our church were always meant to be sung in Coptic, for the readings however i do agree with you, that is a bit over the top if its read in its entirety in Coptic, but if its only a small portion whats the big deal? As David said, the actual coptic language is very important to us, why fix something thats not broken? its our job to protect and preserve our Heritage(haha i sound like an HCOC member haha) but its true. Hymns themselves can be and have been interpratated into english and arabic and french and other languages. i see no big deal in it. THe purpose of a deacon(i read this on this forum a while back) is to learn the hymns in a way that they are proffesionals in the hymns and that they don't need books to sing them, so that when you look at the meaning in english or arabic or whatever you can meditate in your own language while still keeping the beauty of the hymn.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 02:07 PM

Let me challenge some assumptions:

1) Why is the Coptic language "very important to us?"

2) Why is the Coptic language "very precious?"

Can anyone give me a theological answer to this question? The only reason I can think of to make Coptic prominent in our churches is for uniformity. So that a Copt in the US can go to a Coptic Church in France and know what's going on. Beyond that, there's nothing special about Coptic. If we were to use Russian for uniformity, I'd be just as pleased.

Otherwise, this becomes a Coptic nationalism game. It becomes keeping Coptic because of Coptic pride. That's fine, but let's recognize that that's the reason, not because of anything "inherently good" about Coptic.

That said, I think the uniformity argument is enough for me to say: 1) uniformity is extremely important, 2) all Copts should learn liturgical Coptic.

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Epideacon

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 03:58 PM

well, look at it this way everybody. True it may be that we only keep Coptic around for the sake of preservation. But, if it were to happen that for some reason caused by divine intervention, that all the people in Egypt started speaking Coptic, and Coptic became a major language again, then I'm sure all the usage of Coptic in the diaspora would diminish greatly and you all would be appeased. However, since that's not happening for a while, it's up to us to keep it alive. The reason why I say it's up to us is because we have the access to resources for teaching and learning the Coptic language as a complete language. In Egypt, people learn the hymns and that's pretty much the only Coptic they know. They don't even know what they're saying, which takes a lot of dedication and patience if you ask me.

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David_the_King

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 06:37 PM

From beshoyg:David, did you just add a section to your post? hahah

I just read it again, and I noticed a whole additional section on Mlm Mikhail and Dr. Ragheb Moftah. hahah.

I agree that we are truly indebted to these two great men for the preservation of our hymns, which I genuinely believe have some of the most beautiful tunes that move the spirit. Strangely enough, I just finished writing a paper on Dr. Ragheb Moftah and Coptic hymns.

I am by no means suggesting we remove Coptic hymns from our services. As I mentioned before, for the hymns that are too complicated for proper or perfect translation, I would be the first to stand up against any translation. Having said that though, I think the beauty of our hymns is in their tune and sound, not the language.

Again, my main issue is not with these hymns. It is more regarding the readings which are still done in Coptic.

Yes I did edit it, lol sorry! But to elaborate on one point. As truth seeker has said, it keeps uniformity that if you go to Germany you can follow and actually participate and respond in the altar if you happen to serve. That's just an example. But for long hymns, they SHOULD NOT be translated into any languages. It would be tough to translate them into German, Spanish, Italian, the African languages. Even harder translating them in English because we would have to have a standard. Maybe one person translates a hymn a certain way, but someone else translates it with different words. Or maybe they put tunes on the wrong part of hymns. The long tunes of certain words are set on those words for a certain reason. We should not change this. Coptic is already set, but English is not. What if someone wants to use old English, as in our pascha books with words like thee and thou. Often times certain words do NOT translate through. One example is the word love in Greek. If we chant a hymn with the word 'Aghapy' we translate it as love. If we chant a hymn with the word 'philo' we still put love, but there is a linguistic difference, and Ramez can further elaborate on that. The Coptic really does make everything uniform and the long hymns are done, lets not change them into languages. We can translate them and explain them before or after they are chanted to the congregation.

Often times people change a hymn into English, then someone realizes that those words aren't as closely translated as it could be. One example: piathloforos emmartiros. I have heard, O victorious martyr, O struggled mantled martyr, O struggle-bearer and martyr, and I know there is more I just can't think of any.

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AMoussa01

posted on Apr 30, 2008 - 08:46 PM

Hello bishoy,

You have brought up a couple of good interesting points. Just to add to what everyone else is saying; coptic is very precious. It is part of our heritage and there is nothing wrong about taking pride in our rich heritage as long as its done in a Christian manner. Who are we to change what our father's have established? Why on earth would someone chant pekethronos in english? Either way, you will be elongating on a vowel which would make no difference if you were to say it in coptic. Since we are following the tradition of our ancestors, it is important that we keep the rites of our worship.

I disagree with you statement which says: "Even if we learn how to read Coptic, will we ever understand it as well as English or Arabic seeing that all our communication and education is one of these other two languages." If someone studies coptic as a language, they could understand perhaps even better than english or arabic.

Your second question is a very good one. However, coptic hymns are not necessarily "designed" this way. What i am trying to say is that these hymns are long and melismatic for a reason. It is to help us meditate and focus on the words which we are chanting. So our prayer, i guess you can say, is more of a contemplative sort where we elongate on words to understand their meaning. I do not think saying them in coptic really hinders us in this case, because we are not necessarily reading but chanting. This can be done while reading the english/ arabic translations.

About reading the coptic prophecies and gospels: I understand where you are coming from. This should be done with moderation, meaning not chanting entire gospels or prophecies in coptic but part only. We also have to consider that some of us, believe it or not, understand coptic. Personally, i would chant the quick recitative prayers or hymns in english while keeping the long ones in coptic.

Concerning your fourth question: No. It is not only to express our ideas, more mainly to follow what we have inhereted through our heritage and keeping it.

5th question: Yes it is only just a language by the end of the day. Which is why we shouldnt keep complaining on changing it. For the last question I think to a certain extent you are right.

I find it upsetting where people do not try to understand their heritage. Is it because they dont care? Is it because it is not worth learning or expanding our minds? Lets try to get into the habit of turning everything into something postive; so instead of people complaining, have them learn.

GB
Tony

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Hisservant

posted on May 01, 2008 - 12:22 AM

its funny, after the arab invasion we quickly embrace arabic and call it our own, and what is our own (coptic) we throw out and say its too hard to understand

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beshoyg

posted on May 01, 2008 - 12:28 AM

Thank you all for your replies. Your answers have been very insightful. I will think about it more, and let it sink in.

Tony, regarding your last few questions. I definitely love to learn more and more about my heritage. The way I see it though, our heritage is the faith and traditions our fathers passed down to us and encompasses a whole lot more than the Coptic language. The language itself is only a part of that heritage.

Hisservant, I think you might have misunderstood my post. I don't consider Arabic my language. Ironically enough, I read Coptic much faster than I do Arabic. I used Arabic and English because they are the ones spoken by the majority of Copts. My understanding is that language is just a means of communication. If this were still the 800s and the Arab invaders were trying to force me to adopt Arabic, I would surely be fighting against it. But thats not the case.

So even though I personally am willing to learn Coptic, and have been trying to do so, what about others who don't have the same motivation?

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Epideacon

posted on May 01, 2008 - 12:50 AM

Someone should write a wikibook on the Coptic Language to make it easier for everybody to learn, and in the OLD BOHAIRIC DIALECT!

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David_the_King

posted on May 01, 2008 - 01:16 AM

From beshoyg:Thank you all for your replies. Your answers have been very insightful. I will think about it more, and let it sink in.

Tony, regarding your last few questions. I definitely love to learn more and more about my heritage. The way I see it though, our heritage is the faith and traditions our fathers passed down to us and encompasses a whole lot more than the Coptic language. The language itself is only a part of that heritage.

Hisservant, I think you might have misunderstood my post. I don't consider Arabic my language. Ironically enough, I read Coptic much faster than I do Arabic. I used Arabic and English because they are the ones spoken by the majority of Copts. My understanding is that language is just a means of communication. If this were still the 800s and the Arab invaders were trying to force me to adopt Arabic, I would surely be fighting against it. But thats not the case.

So even though I personally am willing to learn Coptic, and have been trying to do so, what about others who don't have the same motivation?

Here's a task. Learn Coptic, fully. Learn the language like remenkimi or atthowi and learn how to speak it. Then, once you have done this, stop using it in everything. Do not read a psalm nor prophecy ever again.

Sound hard? It should be. The one's who took time to learn it, as HG Bishop Rafael says we all should, would NEVER want to make it into English or Arabic. I prayed Wednesday night of Pascha with Atthowi (Joe) and we said pekethronos together. After I told him to finish the psalm and gospel in Coptic. As he was reading the Gospel, he read it as if it was English for him because he understood it. He would NEVER want to lose this language even though he understands English better. I later told him to read a prophecy and while I did that I told my priest, who does not know him, who he is. I told him that he attended our church and he knows Coptic as a language and knows how to speak it fully. He was amazed at how quick he can read it and it sounded as if it was someone reading a language they know, which it was.

We cannot take Coptic out for the sake of the beloved people who fight to learn it and teach it. We can't put laziness, or personal matters such as time, into taking out Coptic because people do not want to learn it.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 01, 2008 - 01:36 AM

David,

I know what you're saying, but in order not to "waste" the effort put into learning Coptic by Joe, you want MILLIONS of Copts to put effort into learning Coptic. Personally, I look at that argument and I am amazed.

That argument is only good if it's good to learn Coptic, and if it's good to learn Coptic then that argument is unnecessary. In other words, whether Joe knows Coptic or not is absolutely irrelevant for the millions of others who have to choose between learning it or not.

If learning Coptic is not important, then you're asking millions to "waste" their time so that Joe would end up not having wasted his time. If learning Coptic is important, then it doesn't matter if Joe learned it or not, all Copts should learn it.

See what I'm saying? I think the uniformity argument is the only argument and it is a sufficient argument. That's why I think it's good to learn liturgical Coptic, but unnecessary to learn spoken Coptic. As far as practical living is concerned, learning spoken Coptic is almost useless.

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atthoowi

posted on May 01, 2008 - 04:06 AM

I tried to stay out of this because these Coptic vs. English discussions always turn out to be fights but since I was brought up personally I will say a few words.

First, read what Bishop Youssef has to say on the subject

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=86

Second,there was nobody on earth growing up who thought Coptic was useless more than me. I grew up at St. Abanoub church with Peter and Paul who first started teaching me Coptic hymns. I immediately fell in love. After years of learning hymns, my brother said, "why do you say all those Coptic hymns, you don't understand what you are saying?" He triggered me from that point on to learn Coptic. I started studying Coptic about 8 years ago and speaking about 7 years ago. My friends and I would converse in Coptic for hours at a time discussing the church, politics, our daily lives and more.

The reason I say that is not to "show off" which I'm sure a post following this may say, but it is to stress the importance of studying and speaking Coptic. This allowed me to understand the church's prayers directly in the language our forefathers understood. The church's treasures were revealed in a new light to me. The advantages of learning Coptic include
1. Understanding what our fathers wrote precisely, which helps resolve misunderstandings of scripture (refer to my post in the John 20:17 post) because it shows us how Copts understood the bible and theology.
2. As Ragheb Moftah said:
Dr. Moftah also spoke of the importance of language and the relationship between language and music. “From early childhood, one should learn Coptic language. God granted children a wonderful memory of languages and new words….Coptic hymns were written to be sung only in Coptic. If they are sung in Arabic they loose 70% of their beauty. We have some hymns that are originally in Greek since this was the universal language in early times….Greek texts go on well with Coptic music, and even some western language, but Arabic is far from getting on with Coptic.” He also said "Language is the key to the whole Coptic identity. You see the Spanish, keeping their language, they could send out invaders centuries after. But we lost our language and all culture. From early childhood, one should learn Coptic language. God granted children a wonderful memory of languages and new words. Now we are Arabs, we are not Copts. Teaching Coptic to our children, we will be Egyptian Copts."
3. As Pope Shenouda said in front of my eyes about 5 years ago to answer this same question "How can you say "pi-o-ou emefiot nem `psheeri...(sang this verse in its tune from Ten theeno in Coptic)" in Arabic or English and preserve its beauty. Nothing beats hearing the Pope chant Tasbeha BTW.
4. Further, it helps us meditate and contemplate on the prayers our fathers handed down to us. For example, Marenshepehmot entotf... is translate, "let us give thanks..." If you understand Coptic it means, "Let us receive grace from the hands of the doer of good things, and large hearted, God the Father..." Here is another example, from the prayer of reconciliation.

"The God, The Great, The Until Eternity. He who built man upon a state of indestructibility/corruptibility."

The Coptic word "kot" is a word used throughout the bible which more accurately means "to build." It is used when many old testament prophets built altars and buildings etc. Then it further says that we were built (ie as a building). Any building has to have a foundation to be stable. Thats why it says we were built upon the "state of indestructibility/incorruption." That is the foundation for us being built and that is why they chose the words "ehree ejen" instead of "khen." So to summarize, we, the building were built on an indestructible foundation. This is the meaning clearly conveyed in the Coptic but not evident in the English or Arabic translation.

Next it says, "And the death which he came into the world through the jealousy of the devil (literally "on the hands of the jealousy of the devil", this indicates that he actively brought it in himself) You destroyed (shershor is a word used to describe something falling to pieces (usually a building or structure)and crumbling apart) it (talking about "the death") through (again this literally means "on the hand of" indicating a direct intervention by God Himself) the life giving manifesting forth (ie "the appearance") of Your Only Begotten Son our Lord and Our God and OUr Savior Jesus The Christ.

Anyway this is too long so Im stopping here.

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AMoussa01

posted on May 01, 2008 - 04:17 AM

Wow dude, you amaze me

Who taught you coptic btw? Was it something you learned on a website? did you take a class? Please share...

GB
Tony

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beshoyg

posted on May 01, 2008 - 04:33 AM

Joe!

Thank you very much for your reply. Thats really all I needed - more information on the value of Coptic.

Clearly, from one who has studied it carefully, the Church's original Liturgical language does provide a great deal of additional value and meaning relative to the simple English and Arabic translations. I appreciate the examples you posted, they are indeed very enlightening.

Frankly, your post answered many of the questions I had, and provided enough justification to ease my recent frustration. Thats exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you all and pray for me,

Beshoy

Joined: Apr 30, 2008 | Posts: 7

Remnkemi

posted on May 01, 2008 - 05:00 AM

From Truth.Seeker:
Can anyone give me a theological answer to this question?
Not exactly. God never gave a law or a commandment saying you must learn Coptic. But let me direct you to Deutoroinomy 6:20 and Jeremiah 18:1-10. At one point in time, shortly after God directed Moses to set a law, Moses knew that the future generations of Israel would question the customs and tradition they follow. Doesn't that sound like us questioning the customs and linguistic tradition of Coptic? I think they are very similiar (not identical). So what was Moses' answer? It applies to us today. "Tell them", Moses said, "We were slaves and the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. And the Lord did many signs and wonders...." In other words, tell them again the whole story of how God did the things He did and how much H loves you. This brings me to Jeremiah 18. God gave Jeremiah a sign. He told Jeremiah that a potter can make a bad pot if he wants. And God can deal with Israel's enemies as he wants but it is not in Israel's power to question God's choices. Which brings us to Coptic. God made us Coptic and not just Coptic, but Coptic from Egypt. Now when we question the traditions and customs handed to us, we can only follow Moses' recommendenation: Remember that God loves us and He chose where and when to create us. God could have made us British Orthodox (Coptic Orthodox faith without the Coptic language). He could have made us South African, Zimbabwain, Kenyan. All these people are part of the Coptic Orthodox Church who don't use Coptic. God chose to make you the part of the Church that uses Coptic. Like Israel, we have no right to question God's choices. You make your own conclusion if this is theological or not.

Otherwise, this becomes a Coptic nationalism game. It becomes keeping Coptic because of Coptic pride. That's fine, but let's recognize that that's the reason, not because of anything "inherently good" about Coptic.
This would make sense except most people who know Coptic as a language are not Coptic or Egyptian born. There is only one or two schools in Egypt that teach Coptic. There are dozens of schools outside of Egypt with hundreds of non-Coptic students. It is not about nationalism.

Is there something inherently good about Coptic? That depends what you consider good. Is a non-broken, 5000 year continuous link into the oldest, and arguably the most advanced, ancient soceity something inherently good? Is there something good about discovering the oldest fragment of the Bible? Is there something good about communicating and discovering the different interests, religions and thinking of an ancient society? I would argue yes to all. In fact, if there is nothing inherently good about Coptic, or any other ancient language, why do so many people study these cultures, religions and languages?

That said, I think the uniformity argument is enough for me to say: 1) uniformity is extremely important, 2) all Copts should learn liturgical Coptic.
Uniformity in Church services is an ecclesiastical issue. And it is a good reason to have Coptic. But it is not the only reason. Coptic is richer than most Egyptians think. But like Hisservant said, we care more about Arabic and Judeo-Christian Western langauges and cultures more than our own Coptic culture and language.

George

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David_the_King

posted on May 01, 2008 - 05:25 AM

From atthoowi: After years of learning hymns, my brother said, "why do you say all those Coptic hymns, you don't understand what you are saying?" He triggered me from that point on to learn Coptic. I started studying Coptic about 8 years ago and speaking about 7 years ago. My friends and I would converse in Coptic for hours at a time discussing the church, politics, our daily lives and more.



Which brother, Mark or Mike? lol sorry for dragging you into this, but I felt that the two Coptic scholarly speakers of this site should contribute to this discussion. Very great points by both you and remenkimi and this site would LOVE to find out exactly what your methods were to learn Coptic. So please one of you share with us so we can ALL partake in our heritage.

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Remnkemi

posted on May 01, 2008 - 11:12 AM

DavidtheKing, you didn't drag us into this, you beat us to it.

There is no secret to learning Coptic.

It starts out with a desire to know. When you become impatient because you're forgetting vocabulary, it's that desire that rekindles the ability to retain information. This is usually where people fall short. Their desire is short term. It takes patience to learn a lanaguage.

All I did was take out Nabil Mattar's book "A Bohairic Study" and go through it cover to cover. In the process, you learn vocabulary (which I think is the hardest part). The grammar is easier. It helps to refresh yourself on 5th grade grammar because you need to know grammar terminology. (not only to learn Coptic but to go on the TV show). That's it. It took 2 months.

Last year, I took Sahidic Coptic online. That is a totally different beast but more popular than Bohairic in Coptic literature. Hopefully, I'll take Bohairic Coptic online next semester.

George

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jydeacon

posted on May 01, 2008 - 12:58 PM

Atthowi and Remenkimi I would love to learn Coptic as a language, what sources for learning do you recomend? I recently just got the book so you want to learn Coptic? Will this be sufficient? Or is there more I should use?

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 01, 2008 - 02:34 PM

Remnkemi,

Thank you for your reply, let me address it:

For the first section:

Your first two words nullify the rest of your reply. Here's why: "not really" means there is no theological importance to Coptic. This is unlike the divine law that was handed to Moses which Moses wanted to preserve. Not only are the two not identical, but they are vastly different. I find it hard to believe that God cares about what language we worship Him in.

For the second section:

I am talking about advocating that all or most Copts learn Coptic. By definition of what I'm talking about, I'm not addressing the scholars outside of Egypt.

The link to a 5,000 year old ancient civilization is not a theological argument (which is what I was asking in my whole post). Knowing something about Pharaohs will do nothing for any Christian. The argument you make about understanding old Biblical fragments is a good one, but there's two issues: 1) any fragment wouldn't "add" anything to our religion because the Church will never say "oh, our faith was deficient before finding this," and 2) that means only a select few should learn it, not all Copts. Otherwise, if we really want Copts to be ready, we should make them learn Greek and Hebrew as well.

My "Coptic nationalism" comment was regarding someone saying all Copts should learn it just because it's OUR language. You ended your post with, "we care more about Arabic and Judeo-Christian Western langauges and cultures more than our own Coptic culture and language." That stings of Coptic nationalism. If Coptic is inherently good, it shouldn't matter if you're Coptic or not, you should go and learn it. If you should be more compelled to learn it because you're Coptic, then that stems from Coptic nationalism. Unless you limit the learning to liturgical Coptic.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with saying learn Coptic because you're Coptic. But the weight of that argument is very limited since its a political argument, not a theological one.

In short, learning a language on a societal level is a self-fulfilling prophecy. "The language is useful, therefore learn it." After everyone's learned it, "See? It's very useful because you can converse with others in it now."

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 410

Remnkemi

posted on May 01, 2008 - 05:27 PM

From Truth.Seeker:Your first two words nullify the rest of your reply. Here's why: "not really" means there is no theological importance to Coptic.
No, not all. I used "not really" for a specific reason. You asked for a theological argument. A theological argument by definition is an argument from God or about God or both. In Deutronomy 6, the command to preserve the law was from God but the reason is about God and how he wants the Israelites to preserve tradition. The Coptic argument that I presented is not from God, it is about God. So you can't say there is no theological importance to Coptic. There is.

So the question remains, if God is the Pantocrator and everything happens by His will and because He loves you He made you Coptic Orthodox from Egypt, not British Orthodox or anything else I mentioned where the Coptic language isn't used, why do you question the use of th language. God made you Coptic because the Coptic language is important since it is part of your identity.

I find it hard to believe that God cares about what language we worship Him in.
In an earlier post, you said, "Coptic should be used for liturgical purposes." Liturgical language is communicating to God or about God. If God doesn't care about what language we worship Him in, why should we learn it for liturgical purposes, especially since most liturgical language is direct to God?

In Revelation 7:9 we see that langages are important to God. "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." Languages can divide, like in the Tower of Babylon, or it can unite, like Peter's first sermon on Pentecost Day.

No one is saying Coptic is more important to God than any other language. All I'm saying is that God made you Coptic and to be Coptic is to identify with the culture and the langauge.


The link to a 5,000 year old ancient civilization is not a theological argument (which is what I was asking in my whole post).
I was responding to your comment that there is nothing inherently good about Coptic. You were no longer talking about a theological argument.

Knowing something about Pharaohs will do nothing for any Christian.
Really. There is so much I can say to prove this arguement wrong but it will only lead to arguing. Suffice it to say, many, many customs that are found in our Coptic Church can be traced to the Pharaohs.
The argument you make about understanding old Biblical fragments is a good one, but there's two issues: 1) any fragment wouldn't "add" anything to our religion because the Church will never say "oh, our faith was deficient before finding this,"
No Biblical fragments usually supplement and enhance our faith and understanding of the Bible and what is not and should not be in the Bible (like the Gnostic writings). This does not mean you should learn Coptic solely to discover Biblical fragments. It only means learning Coptic (or any other Biblical language) is an adjunct tool to enhance your faith.
and 2) that means only a select few should learn it, not all Copts. Otherwise, if we really want Copts to be ready, we should make them learn Greek and Hebrew as well.
You're right, it's not for everyone. It is for every Copt who wants to invest time an effort to learn languages, which will enhance his/her understanding of the Bible.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with saying learn Coptic because you're Coptic. But the weight of that argument is very limited since its a political argument, not a theological one.
It is not exclusively a political argument. It is also a anthropological argument. My question to you then is "What is the definition of Coptic?" The possible, common answers are:
1. A member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
This is inadequate because there are Coptic Catholics, Coptic Greeks, Coptic Protestants. There are also people who know everything about the Coptic Church but are not members of the Coptic church.
2. An Egyptian decendant
This is inadequate too. Coptic is only one point in Egypt's history. It's just as legitimate to say A Pharonic descendant.
3. Someone who lives in Egypt
Also inadequate because there are many, many Copts who live outside of Egypt.
4. Anything that pertains to Egypt's cultural, historical and linguistic identity.
This is my pick because it is true. Coptic is not exlusively about religion. It is about everything from Egypt. This is our identity. This is Coptic pride and it doesn't necessarily mean politics because we are not specifically talking about modern Egyptian politics (which is Arab and Islamic as of today).

George

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 01, 2008 - 06:20 PM

Remnkemi,

So, does that mean God hates all the people born into atheist families? Are we Calvinists now, going to talk about how we were predestined to be in the faith? Actually, you're going a step beyond that, not only are you arguing we were predestined to be in the faith, but predestined to be within a particular group within the faith. Coptic came about by the results of the PAGAN created languages of Demotic and Greek. There's nothing inherently holy about the language.

The liturgical argument I put forth stems from my uniformity argument. I already said if we do it all in Russian, I'd be just as pleased. Of course, doing it in Coptic is easier because we already have everything in Coptic. It has nothing to do with God and Coptic, and everything to do with what's the easiest way to achieve uniformity.

Nothing is "inherently good" apart from theology. That's a discussion for another day, but that's what I meant. There's no way for you to have implied this from what I say, so I apologize and I hope this clarifies what I meant.

Any definition of "Coptic" will be shaped by the person who's defining it. The person who's defining it is shaped by his/her socio-political outlook. As far as I'm concerned, "Coptic" in its broadest form means any descendant of Egypt. Your distinction between "Pharaonic descendant" doesn't make sense. "Descendants of Egypt" INCLUDES "Phaoronic descendants." They're not mutually exclusive. That means, even Muslims in Egypt are "Coptic" unless all their ancestors are Arab.

Of course, my definition of "Arab" is someone who's racially Arab, i.e. from the Arab Peninsular.

On this forum, I use "Coptic" to mean a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Really, I don't care if you call it anthropological, if it's not theological, it doesn't matter FOR theology.
___

P.S. Epouro's tune came from the Pharaoh's welcome. How does knowing this add or subtract from Christianity? It doesn't, my point stands.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 410

ophadeece

posted on May 01, 2008 - 09:11 PM

Dear beshoyg,
Thank you very much for your inciting question for most people on this website. I have got few thoughts, which I feel will support the argument of how important Coptic is, not only as a Liturgical language, but also as a communication language. Having said that, I really wish that one day I can speak Coptic as atthwoi or Remenkimi, and I really do fear for my children if they don't care about this language - me being an Egyptian-born living in the UK.
First of all, let me start by saying that we are called the Coptic Orthodox Church, not the Arabic, not the English, not anything else. It is not desecrating, but a little bit frustrating that Copts (who are called Copts belonging to EVERY THING which is Coptic, or Egyptian) don't like Coptic!!! Actually, Dr. Moftah said in an interview with Albair that is available on copticheritage.org that some priests and archdeacons from St. Mark Church in Cleopatra, Cairo, Egypt started this discussion in the early years of this century, intending to get rid of Coptic in the liturgy and all the hymns that no one understands and reconstruct the liturgical service on the basis of Arabic that every one understand, and here Dr. Moftah did the greatest job ever that no one else would have been able to carry out.
Second, let me tell you two stories that really impressed me - a) the Israelites after having reunited in where they are now, revived the Jewish language, and introduced words that can express modern and hi-tech things, like aeroplane, car, ... etc. I am not exactly sure if their communities scattered over the whole world kept the Jewish language amongst themselves before reuniting (in both cases they beat us by far); b) the Russians on German invasion to their country brought all the books, and first generations (grandfathers and grandmothers) used to memorise these books by heart from cover to back, and pass them down to the third generation, like grandsons and granddaughters, and when all of their cultures and libraries were burnt down, they didn't lose anything, as when the world war was over, they were able to rewrite all of their books, and not a single one was lost. In contrast, in Egypt, the Alexandria library was burnt down, and guess what? Most if not all of the Coptic Bibles, the studies of our great fathers were lost, and to add to that sadly even monks in some era used to burn psalmody books for fire. You know what? Do you know Abu Simbel temple? It would have been ruined by the flood before the High Dam was built in Aswan, had it not been for Italian and other countries architects, who took it down completely, and rebuilt it after the flood was over!!! Do you want me to tell you more? I guess I will move to another point...
People don't do any good to hymns they translate - however meticulous they are (which I doubt) they lose their meanings. It is not only about melismatising vowels; it is also about the weight of these vowels musically. The music, and therefore the spiritual feeling gets distorted when Coptic hymns are translated. Even more so, if you say simple hymns like aribamaui (aribamevi as commonly known, the hymn of the Good Friday) in both Coptic and Greek and then repeat it in Arabic or English you will find that the second verse is completely unmatching, and even rhythmically playable on the cymbals!!! More of a surprise yet, say Osberin in Arabic and English, and you will find that the meaning of the hymn is on the floor. The second quartet goes down in tune in both of these translations, while in the original Coptic (or maybe precisely Greek) tune the first three quartets are of the same tune, and they do MEAN THE SAME. As it is: so shall it be: from generation to generation - you see what I mean? It is only fitting to have the three quartets in the same tune not like the Arabic or English, besides many many more hymns no one has time for me to mention now.
Please just let us pay some tribute and due respect for the people who fought for the Coptic language. Abba Athanasios the Apostolic didn't rest for one minute when he heard Arius pronouncing a word with an "added" letter. It never sat right with him, although I don't think millions of Copts would have cared; are you asking about millions of Copts? Let's start with ourselves...
God bless you all and pray for us

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