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AMoussa01

posted on May 01, 2008 - 09:27 PM

The reason why people feel so strongly towards this subject is because it is who we are. We have a very rich and beautiful culture and way of worship which is unlike any other church. I am not saying that culture is everything, because what really matters is faith. The thing is that, many people find our style of worship to be spiritually nourishing. I am willing to bet that the people who do not like our style of worship are the people who do not take the time to sit down and find the significance of all our rites/hymns/ or language; nothing is there for no reason! They just do not care to look. This is upsetting because they are missing a huge treasure that our fathers have given us. Lets not underestimate the fact that this would have a huge impact on the copts if we were to change everything; and i do not mean in a positive way. The people who are in discontent are the ones who refuse to dig deeper to find the treasure that is part of our church. With this treasure, we will be able to (like remenkemi said) enhance our understanding of the Bible, Liturgy, and more. Like i said before, there is nothing wrong with taking pride in who you are..

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 01, 2008 - 10:26 PM

Pride is not good in any form. Infact, pride in something someone had nothing to do with (what race he/she is) makes the least sense of all.

The people who are discontent are those who don't want to dig to find the treasure when the treasure could easily be put above ground. Indeed, unlike gold, everyone's better off if this treasure is easily available to all.

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AMoussa01

posted on May 02, 2008 - 04:53 AM

From Truth.Seeker:Pride is not good in any form. Infact, pride in something someone had nothing to do with (what race he/she is) makes the least sense of all.

The people who are discontent are those who don't want to dig to find the treasure when the treasure could easily be put above ground. Indeed, unlike gold, everyone's better off if this treasure is easily available to all.

Pride by definition: a high opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.

So you are telling me that it is wrong to be proud that I am a Christian? It is wrong to take pride in the cross? It is wrong to be proud of the fact that Christ suffered for me because he loved me and that he created me? Is this what you are telling me? Well, i have to strongly disagree to that.

About your treasure comment; i disagree. There is something very unique about our church that people are so quick to dismiss- not because they do not wish to expand their minds, or because they prefer something else. It is because they are lazy and i am willing to bet that this is the main reason why people choose to change what our fathers have given us. I do not feel like learning coptic, why should i have to put up with it? I do not feel like praying a 3 hour liturgy, why should i have to put up with it? I want air conditioned seats and a drive through communion! Once we get rid of the one thing, another has to go...

P.S. Even in our church hymns, we call saint Mary "the PRIDE of our race."

GB
Tony

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beshoyg

posted on May 02, 2008 - 05:16 AM

First, thank you all for your replies. I continue to learn more and many of your arguments are very convincing and provide a solid case for the use of Coptic.

Tony - I am sorry, but I disagree with the following paragraph:

"There is something very unique about our church that people are so quick to dismiss- not because they do not wish to expand their minds, or because they prefer something else. It is because they are lazy and i am willing to bet that is the main reason why people choose to ask for things handed to them the way they want it. I do not feel like learning coptic, why should i have to put up with it? I do not feel like praying a 3 hour liturgy, why should i have to put up with it? I want air conditioned seats and a drive through communion! Once we get rid of the one thing, another has to go... "

To argue that people don't want to learn Coptic because they are lazy and want to be spoon-fed everything in life is very simplistic, offensive and untrue. It might be true for some people, but definitely not for every one.

If you ask me, part of the problem is that value of Coptic in our Liturgies is not explained well to the congregation. I'm pretty sure if someone provides the argument Joe provided to this forum to the whole congregation, many people will see the value of Coptic, and many people will put more effort to learn it.

To continue to make the simple argument that "Coptic is part of our heritage" and leave it at that is not convincing and is intellectually flawed. So if you ask me, the problem is very simple - lack of communication and explanation. Maybe thats where effort should be put so everyone is on the same page from the beginning.

Thats what I can say from my own experience. Thanks for being patient with me.

In need of your prayers,

Beshoy

Joined: Apr 30, 2008 | Posts: 7

AMoussa01

posted on May 02, 2008 - 05:24 AM

Hello bishoy,

Let me clarify something. In my second paragraph of my response, i was not only talking about the coptic language but all aspects of our heritage/rituals. The question regarding the learning of coptic was just a mere example to show you that not everyone (i dont want to say majority) takes full advantage of what we have in our church, or care for it even. So, just to be clear...i was not only talking about the language. After all, coptic is just a small part of the treasure

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 02, 2008 - 02:27 PM

Tony,

The idea of pride is that whatever the object of pride is is superior to something else. Is Christianity superior to every other religion? Yes. Then it's ok to be proud to be Christian. Is St. Mary second to none but God Himself? Yes, then it's ok to have pride in St. Mary.

Is being Coptic better than being anything else? NO. All blood-lines have equal worth. That's why to say you're proud of being Coptic is not right - because that means being Coptic is better than being something else. It's not. You can say you're proud of being "Coptic Orthodox" (the religion), but if we were to change everything into English, the faith would be unchanged.

So, I will always say "NO" to you saying we should be "proud of who we are" in the context of being proud in Coptic culture and therefore learning Coptic.

You can't lump language with everything else, because language is the GATEWAY to everything else. You can't say that by opening a door, everything in the house is going to be thrown out. By opening the door, people will be able to use the house.

We should have an obstacle course infront of every church, then really weed out the people who don't want to go through the trouble of praying. Let's add a fire pit infront of the door, so that only the most devout can really get in there. Come on.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 02, 2008 - 03:03 PM

Beshoy is absolutely right. I've talked to people who thought the "Coptic pride" stuff is absolutely ridiculous (it is). Then I provided them with the uniformity argument. They loved it. Why? Because when we're talking about religion, the argument for something should be religious.

Five out of the six people I've seriously told the uniformity argument to have learned to read Coptic, and have most of the liturgical Coptic down. Why? They saw a legitimate reason to learn it. It appeals to them that they can go to Germany and understand everything that's going on.

If I were to tell them, "learn Coptic or you're lazy," they'll tell me, "It's not lazy to not learn something that's useless." This is why Beshoy said it's "intellectually flawed" to just say "Coptic is part of our heritage" and leave it at that. Our "heritage" and our "faith" are two different things. We have to provide a faith-based argument.

Has our "heritage" influenced our "faith?" Not really. What it has influenced is the way in which we carry that faith out. In other words, it has influenced our rites, not our doctrines. Rites can be changed, indeed, they have always been changed. E.g. from praying Easter once every 33 years to praying it once a year.

People who reject the "Coptic heritage" argument aren't deficient Copts, they're Copts who don't want to mix politics/anthropology/whatever anyone wants to name it with religion.

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AMoussa01

posted on May 02, 2008 - 03:12 PM

I respectfully disagree. I personally do not see anything wrong with being proud that i am coptic, just as long as i am acting in a Christian manner. Let me provide you with an example. In the Holy Bible, God calls the egyptians blessed. Is that not something worth being proud of? Does that necessarily mean we are better than everyone else? No. Just because I am proud of who i am does not mean i think i am superior to everyone else. That is why i disagree with your definition of pride. One can think highly or be honored without the idea of thinking that he or she is better than someone else. Plus, i have been told by many clergy that you should have pride being coptic.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 02, 2008 - 03:24 PM

This is a legitimate disagreement. In my view, being "proud" means nothing if the object of pride is not thought to be superior to anything else. So, if you're proud of being Coptic but don't think being Coptic is better than being any other race, then I don't have a problem (basically, because I don't think that means anything).

Of course if being Coptic is not superior to being anything else, then the argument for learning Coptic based on heritage doesn't mean much (the person might as well learn French). So, it doesn't add to the argument for learning Coptic. That's why, I again say the uniformity argument is the only one.

P.S. the fact that God blesses Egypt means that Egypt is better than any other place that has not been blessed. Otherwise, God's blessing would mean nothing, far from it.

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AMoussa01

posted on May 02, 2008 - 03:46 PM

Truth.Seeker,

I take pride in being coptic orthodox because of my faith. However you stated early on that pride in any form is wrong. Along with my faith, i get this very rich culture (of course it is nothing compared to faith) that helps "enhance" my understanding in my faith. I will not use the examples that joe gave because that would be redundant; instead, i will provide other examples. The church has rites for each and every occasion like, pascha, great lent, palm sunday, ressurection and so on. These rites bring back these events in history- not just for symbolism, not just for the sake of the occasion, but for the sake of re-living what had happened in the past. f course, you can say that these rites are pointless and that all that matters is our doctrine. The problem with that statement is that you are completely neglecting the benefit of these rites. The order of the rituals is very important because they lead us increasingly towards perceiving God, and to have Him embodied in our minds, eyes and understanding. That is also why i am proud to be a part of a faith that helps us benefit from its practices/rites/traditions and language.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 02, 2008 - 10:32 PM

The pride I was talking about is pride in secular things, because you had said there's nothing wrong to be proud of who you are after you talked about the "richness and beauty" of Coptic culture. I say: having a rich and beautiful culture means absolutely nothing.

I didn't say rites are not important, I said they are always changing. That point was to refute your contention that once you "throw" Coptic out, you're going to start throwing everything else out. If that was the case, we woudln't have any rites left, because we've "thrown" a lot of things out in the past.

Coptic culture "enhances" your understanding of the faith? Really? Which part of Coptic culture enhances your understanding of soteriology, Christology, the Eucharist, etc...? The only thing Coptic enhances the understanding of is rites that have been changed over and over and over in the past.

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Fortunatus

posted on May 07, 2008 - 10:14 PM

+Pi`<rictoc aftwnf!

Beshoy,

Thanks for the honest question.

I agree with many of the points made by atthoowi and remnkemi and have also taken the time to study Coptic as a language, but I really do fear that we are sometimes "overdoing it".

I have sometimes gotten the vibe that people think that a hymn or a song is somehow more spiritual in Coptic, or that something is intrinsically holy in the Coptic language. I'm not convinced that this is right. There are people who look down on people who sing the Praises in English, as though the praises were somehow deficient of something holy. There is nothing intrinsically holy in a language, or we should be required to pray in the language that our Lord spoke, or in the language that God the Father spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai.

There are definitely advantages (as mentioned by atthoowi and remnkemi) to knowing the Coptic language, and preservation is not insignificant, but is it an absolute necessity? Again, I'm not someone speaking in ignorance who hasn't studied the language, I like the language and appreciate it, but am I alone in finding it frustrating that people are praying and not understanding? I've been in a Church where during Pascha week the person reading the beginning of the Gospel in Coptic stopped at the equivalent of the middle of a word!

It may be of value that every Church and leader be thinking back to the "why" questions that you posed in your post before deciding how much of what should be done in the Church. Again, I'm not devaluing the language, but questioning its place in Church life, and in what lay perception has evolved to...

Please, pray for me.

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geomekhaiel

posted on May 08, 2008 - 05:26 PM

Hello Everyone,

I, being one who has struggled with this subject for many years now, have something to add to Mina's (Fortunatus) statement.

I feel as though I have been guilty of falling in the trap of singing Coptic because it is our heritage and pushing it upon everyone else in my church simply because I was being too stubborn.

After years of struggling in this subject, here is my conclusion, thus far:

I think that the only reason people are too stubborn to change their view about Coptic and English is pride.

I realized that when I had left my church to go to another church and while being at that other church i saw similar hymns problems. I found myself becoming the voice of reason and telling people, "No, it's okay, they are just hymns. We need to remember what is really important. Unity, peace, joy and community are more important that divisions which come from hymns."

I never thought I would be that voice of reason. But after giving it enough thought, I realized that the reason I couldn't do that in my own church is because of pride. I realized that there was sooooo much history behind my struggle for Coptic that I didn't have enough humility to be balanced in my view. If I were to become a "voice of reason" instead of a "coptic fanatic" then I would sort of be saying, "I was wrong" and my past strive for coptic was done in immaturity and vain.

Do you guys get it?

....anyhow, i've been thinking and writing this message through 2 classes and i have to start paying attention haha.....

George Mekhaiel

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David_the_King

posted on May 08, 2008 - 07:33 PM

Just a thought,

Why doesn't the Pope or the Holy Synod do anything about this? Why do Bishops continue to learn Coptic, as well as the Pope? Bishop Rafael is always a name that comes to mind. He makes the priests in his diocese learn the Coptic Gregorian. Most Priests pray that in a language of interpretation. Why does he make them learn it? Why does he advocate that our church members and congregations need to learn Coptic? There is something behind it if a LEADER of our church pushes for it. No offense to anyone here that made a post, but if a bishop of our church, one who knows our church in and out, tells us that we have to know Coptic, then I am going to listen to him. I believe that he knows more than anyone that contributed to this discussion. AGAIN NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE! lol

Another thought, if we DO stop chanting Coptic and we start using languages we understand easier, what will other churches and religions say about us? They will say, oh how weak that Coptic church is, can't even keep their language. The differences between us and the Greek Orthodox is very minute, but we are not in communion because of political reasons, not theological per se. If they see us change our language, one that has been up since Mark came to Egypt, how will that make our church as a whole look? We can't rely on Arabic because it is the language of the Muslim invasion. I have heard many times that the Pope himself does not like Arabic because of this reason.

Again, no offense to anyone, I am merely trying to help the Coptic side since it IS our church language.

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Fortunatus

posted on May 08, 2008 - 09:08 PM

+Pi`<rictoc aftwnf!

David,

No offense taken! I understand this to be a discussion, not a battle.

First, I don't think anyone so far has made the suggestion that we should altogether abandon learning Coptic. I think the issue here is more about "how much" and "why" we learn Coptic.

Using the exact same logic, I would tell you that His Holiness the Pope made a point of saying all prayers at the Consecration at my Church in English. He instructed the Bishops, also, to pray in English. It would seem that he was trying to make a point of making sure the people understood the prayers.

Once again, I'm not saying in any way that we should abolish Coptic. I'm questioning the attitude that we have toward the language.

I note, for example, that when visiting one of the States once, there were people who felt that those who didn't want to attend an all-Coptic Liturgy with all the long hymns were somehow less spiritual than those who did. Something about that isn't right, spiritually. Saint Paul made a point of telling the Corinthians that he can speak in far more tongues than anyone that was present, but makes a point of praying in the language that people would understand (1 Corinthians 14).

If you take a step back and look at the history of the Liturgy - our original Liturgy, is in Greek. Saint Cyril had the Liturgy translated to the Coptic in order that the masses would understand, because that was the language that they spoke. It's for that same reason that the Pope had a committee translate the Liturgy into English about two decades ago - so that the Liturgy would be prayed in the language people understand.

So, once more (I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but bear with me, please) - everyone should be asking themselves why they are doing what they are doing, whether or not the motives are spiritual or not, and whether or not it is profitable to all. They must also consider its effect on others. I'm not saying anything about how much of which should be done, because it will be different everywhere, but again, just wanting us all to really think about what we are doing each time, since we are not robots. If I think that something must be done in Coptic only, I really need to sit down and examine why I think that way.

To address the argument with respect to the Greeks and other Byzantine churches - the Greeks have many Churches that do all English. They have translated all their hymns into English and recorded English versions of virtually if not all of them (with the intention of doing it for all of them). Other Eastern Orthodox Churches have done the same. The OCA does services for the most part (correct me, someone if I'm wrong) entirely in English. I am not saying that we need to do the same. I am simply saying, if someone feels very strongly about the language, they really ought to examine why, in a spiritual way.

Pray for me.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 08, 2008 - 11:21 PM

David,

I can easily point to all the bishops that DON'T require the priests to learn that, then say 95% of bishops must know MORE than 1 bishop, and that he's wrong.

And we don't do things in the Coptic Church to look good infront of other churches.

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Remnkemi

posted on May 08, 2008 - 11:29 PM

Fortunatus, thanks for contributing.

One point I tried to make abundantly clear is that the Coptic language is not important or valuable exclusively because it is used in the Coptic Church.

Coptic is valuable as an ancient language and those who value it, whether they are not members of the Coptic Church or not, see its value outside and inside the Church.

Now you can hold the view that nothing outside the Church (or outside theology) is valuable like Truth.Seeker believes. This, in my opinion, is inadequate regarding the language. And you can hold the other extreme view that one reason the Coptic language is valuable is that it is the linguistic tradition of Egypt endorsed by the Coptic Church. This by itself is also inadequate. I advocate learning and valuing Coptic for both reasons. It is valuable because it is the linguistic tradition of Egypt and part of the Church but also because linguistically it is part of Egypt's identity outside of the Church. Armed with this view, it makes complete sense to preserve the language both inside and outside the Church.

Regarding Coptic pride. I can't deny it doesn't exist and that it isn't harmful. It is. But let's be fair. It also happens to English and Arabic. How many times do we hear people sing hymns in English, like "Rejoice, O Mary." and never realize that they are talking to and about St. Mary? Or how many times do we hear people pronounce English words incorrectly and never do anything about it? Just like you find it inconceivable that people read the Pascha Gospel in Coptic and stop mid-sentence, I find it inconceivable that 90-95% of our English speaking youth (whether born in the lands of immigration or not) pronounce "our" as /ow WERE/ with the stress on the second quasi-syllable. I can give examples of Arabic also. Take Apocalypse Night. Whenever someone reads a chapter from the Book of Revelation in Arabic, there is always a priest in every church that corrects the reader. This year, we couldn't go more than 30 seconds without someone reading Arabic incorrectly. You are right that people need to start questioning why we use Coptic and why do things we do. But for argument sake, let's suppose everyone questioned why we read Revelation in Arabic if very few people know proper Arabic, Is it the voice of reason to say, "No more Arabic"? And does this have anything to do with pride? I don't know. Maybe yes to both. All I can tell you is that Arabic is valuable to use in the Church and it's valuable as a language outside of the Church.

In summary, like many, years ago I questioned why we use Coptic especially if we don't understand it. The response to questioning the use of Coptic led me to learn Coptic. If you really want to know why we do things and you set out to learn, you'll probably answer the "why" question just by searching. I also questioned why we sing Tenen when no one knows Greek and the translation did not make sense. So I learned some Greek and set out on a 2 year journey to explain the text, the origin and the beauty of Tenen. And once you really learn Coptic, you'll realize how valuable it is in the Church (you'll understand the liturgy and liturgical services differently) and outside the Church (you'll see how Coptic was used throughout Egypt and how the diverse dialects open our understanding of Egyptian thought in Ancient, Greco-Roman,Late Antiquity and Islamic eras).

George

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David_the_King

posted on May 09, 2008 - 12:32 AM

From Remnkemi: And once you really learn Coptic, you'll realize how valuable it is in the Church (you'll understand the liturgy and liturgical services differently) and outside the Church (you'll see how Coptic was used throughout Egypt and how the diverse dialects open our understanding of Egyptian thought in Ancient, Greco-Roman,Late Antiquity and Islamic eras).

George

I would like to expand a bit on this. When learning the Bible, it is good to understand what you are reading. I believe our church promotes people to learn Greek and Hebrew (not a must) to understanding the Bible. It is originally written in these languages. When they are translated into other languages, they sometimes lose their strength in the translation. Again, I am no scholar, nor do I have such knowledge as Truth.Seeker or anyone else for that matter. All I am saying is that if someone knows Greek, they will understand certain parts of the Bible better than a translated language. That is why the Muslims have you learn Arabic to read the Qu'ran. It carries more strength and sometimes is more clear in the original language.

Same with Coptic. If someone learns Coptic and understands it, then they are better equipped at understanding hymns and the liturgy, right? That is very good that we translate hymns and liturgies in different languages, but if someone learns Coptic, they may have the ability to understand it more than someone who just knows Arabic or English. Some words just do not translate well, or at all, as I have mentioned in an earlier post about the Greek words for 'love.' I believe learning Coptic AND Greek helps people understand our churches TRUE beauty, with its hymns and liturgies.

Forgive me

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AMoussa01

posted on May 09, 2008 - 12:55 AM

I agree 100%!

GB
Tony

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Remnkemi

posted on May 09, 2008 - 01:14 AM

David what you wrote is true but you are only showing the value of Coptic within the Coptic Church. Don't forget the beauty of Coptic outside the Coptic Church.

George

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Truth.Seeker

posted on May 09, 2008 - 01:40 AM

The beauty of Coptic outside the Coptic Church, by definition, should have nothing to do with "Coptic in Church Services." If you say it's good to learn Coptic because it's a beautiful language, I would answer, "sure, why not." There'd be no theological worth to that argument, which would basically mean it becomes a subjective opinion. If you think Coptic is beautiful and is worth learning - learn it, if you don't think so - don't learn it.

We can't use arguments for the beauty of Coptic outside the Church to say that it should be used in Church. We may as well all learn Greek and Hebrew, and really do everything in the original language - from reading the Psalms to the Gospels, to the original language of our liturgies, etc... St. Basil was not Coptic, his liturgy was not originally written in Coptic.

What's interesting is that if we go back to the original way things were done, we'll end up with no Coptic in our Church. On the other hand, if we were to change everything in the Church from Coptic to another language, then Coptic would not have any worth at that point.

It seems to me that most of those arguing to promote Coptic in Church Services ASSUME that Coptic is an inherent and integral part of the Church, then say Coptic is important. Well, Coptic is only an integral part of the Church because we made it so.

All the hymns in our Church were written by someone at some point. There's only value in knowing exactly what a hymn says if that hymn being sung with a single word of deviation would be diminished in worth. That is not the case. The original writer of the hymn could have simply wrote it differently. Then that would have been our frame of reference.

Like I have already said before, there's a very low chance that the hymns we have today are actually the original hymns. So, the Coptic hymns themselves have seen change. Translating these hymns and losing some of their meaning doesn't do much - we're changing something that has been already changed. For all we know, the "bad English translation" may actually be closer to the original (highly unlikely, but we don't know).

Also, like I have already mentioned, since 99.999% of the people who learn Coptic learn it as a second or third or fourth, etc... language, they only learn it in context of another language. What is the point I'm trying to make? The point is that the fact that we know some Coptic is "translated badly" means that we know a better translation - alright, that just means we need to use a better translation, not that Coptic is not translatable.

Now, that would not be the case if Coptic was our first language - because then we only know Coptic in context of Coptic.

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Fortunatus

posted on May 09, 2008 - 02:54 AM

+Pi`<rictoc aftwnf!

George! Long time no talk, thanks for the discussion.

As I mentioned - I'm not against the preservation of Coptic, but am rather just trying to encourage people to rationalise the reason for things as they are. In my local Church, for example, we've made a point of training our kids not to say ow-ar. I agree with you that there are issues, but some are more damaging than others. I would add that the rites and rubrics in general need to be taught and explained far more than they are.

I do have a personal appreciation for Coptic, have studied it (am not as fluent as yourself or atthoowi) and have projects in mind for which I can use it. So that's not really an issue for me, it's seeing the impact on the youth and seeing some of the 'extreme' ends of the damage that bother me. I think that there are many Churches that can get away with different amounts, depending on the culture and environment of the group and how they perceive the role of language.

David - I'm worried that you think that I'm up in arms against Coptic. I am not, don't worry! Again, it was more of a 'let's sit back and assess what we're thinking and doing". I hope I wasn't an offense to you.

Pray for me, please.

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Biboboy

posted on May 09, 2008 - 03:15 AM

Agape,

Truth.Seeker, I don't seem to follow your arguments here. When something's translated, it loses a lot of what the author was trying to say. For example, when I studied just a bit of Greek, I noticed an amazing variety of plays in words that Christ and St. Paul say that cannot make sense when translated, which in turn means that it had to be "interpreted" to make sense in English or any other language. You certainly lose a lot when you don't deal with the original language of composition. The same applies to Coptic hymns - the hymn Aripsaleen, to me at least, is useless in English and Arabic. There's so much in that hymn that is lost; for e.g. a Psali is supposed to be memorized, and one of the ways of keeping track of the order was by organizing each verse with the Coptic alphabet. You don't get that structure when it's translated, and you also lose the rhymes, which makes u wonder why some things in English are incoherent in that hymn. George (Remenkimi) also mentioned the hymn Tenen. I think you get the point, though - what's the value of Shakespeare if he's read in French? That's a European langauge, close to English, and yet English speakers are so conservative with preserving the archaic English of Shakespeare. How much, then, should be expected from Copts, who identify themselves as "Coptic Orthodox"?

With regards to praying in Church using Coptic and any other language, I re-iterate what I've learned from Albair: the Church has its right, and the people have their right. We should give both the Church its right by preserving Coptic as much as we can in the services, and we should give the people their right in understanding what they pray. It's all about balancing things out, or as the Greeks would say, "everything in moderation."

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 722

Truth.Seeker

posted on May 09, 2008 - 04:34 AM

Biboboy,

The fact that you can point to this or that and say "that's a bad translation" means you know of a better translation. So, instead of losing any meaning, we can just translate everything in the best way we know how.

Making sure Arepsalin is sung rhythmically is not more important than knowing what's being said. Ask the average Copt: do you like Arepsalin? They'll say, "sure, it's beautiful." What's it talking about? "Ummm."

Besides, this translation stuff is a cover argument. If people were really interested in making sure everything's understood perfectly, they'd be calling for everyone to learn Hebrew and Greek so we can read the Bible itself - which is inifinitely more important than losing a word or two of a hymn, in the right language.

The Church IS the people. You cannot separate one from the other.

P.S. I don't like Shakespeare in any language, so maybe that's why we're not on the same track .

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 405

AMoussa01

posted on May 09, 2008 - 05:53 AM

I personally do not see what the problem is concerning this subject. Why is it that people can not accept coptic? I honestly do not see the difference when you have the text in front of your face (except when talking about quick recitative hymns). Our hymns like i mentioned before are melismatic and would make no difference if one were to chant them in english. Plus, this is our heritage which we should not be ashamed of. Like everyone else said, there is a benefit learning coptic, greek, or hebrew; they bring insight into the true meaning of the words. I think we can all agree that learning coptic is not a requirement to achieve salvation but that does not mean it is useless; on the contrary, it is very useful! I for one am shocked by how learning coptic can help me look at things in a different light thanks to attoowi and remenkemi. By the way, you guys still have not told me where you learned coptic....

GB
Tony

_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Joined: Jan 08, 2007 | Posts: 519
Location: St. George and St. Joseph in San Jose California