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mikokiko

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posted on May 12, 2008 - 07:10 AM

Truthseeker, when I said that the pharaohs are not our fathers, I was not contesting the historical fact that the they are our blood ancestors, I was speaking more directly of who our fathers are (just as my priest is my father not because he is a blood relative). I am talking about those who first introduced these rites and hymns into the Church. I am talking about the fathers of the Church undoubtedly, what we are talking about here, not people that were outside the Church, don't try to make this all about technicalities.

Let's stop trying to argue away something very simple here.

GB

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 12, 2008 - 02:31 PM

Miko, I couldn't care less which fathers YOU are talking about, I only care which fathers King SOLOMON was talking about. It is a technicality to point out that your interpretation is wrong? I don't think so.

King Solomon wasn't talking about "spiritual fathers," he was talking about ancesteral fathers. Once the verse you're using is shown to not be applicable, you tell me I'm arguing away "something simple."

Like I said, those who introduced these rites and hymns into our Church, introduced them in COPTIC for lack of a better choice. You'd think that Jesus would've spoken in Hebrew instead of Aramaic since He wanted to "fulfill all righteousness." You'd also think that He would've quoted from the Hebrew Bible, not the Septuagint.

This discussion is completely ridiculous, if you want to convince yourself that it's a SIN to stop using Coptic in the Church, then trying to reason with you is a waste of my time. This is my last post on this topic.

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ophadeece

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posted on May 12, 2008 - 06:29 PM

Dear Truth.Seeker,
I hope that you are not by any means implying the advice of us all to start learning Aramaic language as Jesus used it to communicate, while His message was fulfilling all righteousness. Hence, we can assume that all the other languages in the world are filth. Not sure if that is true - mind you Jesus must have spoken Coptic when He fled to Egypt with the holy family, at least some words, so on that basis we can say that He blessed the Coptic language.
Second, I can't really understand how you are making such a point that King Solomon meant something that Pope Cyril VI missed completely. As I have learnt in the church, verses from the Bible can be taken to mean symbolically various things. He was using that verse to symbolically refer to the church fathers, and not following King Solomon's reference to the blood ancestors. I like your way of arguing taking things to extremes to show your point, but sometimes I find that you argue words, rather than ideas.
God bless you and pray for us a lot

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 12, 2008 - 07:49 PM

Ophadeece,

I didn't say that (and that's why I am compelled to post yet another time on this thread). I said the OPPOSITE of that. My point is that Christ fulfilled all righteousness - hence, if part of that is speaking the language of His ancestors (He is the "Son of David" - spiritually and through Joseph), then He would have spoken Hebrew, not Aramaic. Aramaic was not the language of His ancestors, yet He spoke it. Since He fulfilled all righteousness, then speaking the language of one's ancestors is NOT part of righteousness.

Verses can symbolically mean different things - but we don't put a symbolic meaning to a verse when we have direct evidence that the symbolic meaning is wrong. In other words, we can only give symbolic meaning to something when it is consistent with Christianity and not contradicted by another part of Christianity. Saying we must preserve Coptic because our ancestors wrote hymns in Coptic is a contradiction of the evangelization nature of Christianity. We are not to have an "exclusive club" by making it harder for people to pray at Church.

So, taking King Solomon's words to mean we must preserve Coptic, and even more extreme - to say that not preserving Coptic is a SIN (mikokiko) is in contradiction with Christian ethos, that is why that symbolism is not to be maintained.

If God Himself does not mind quoting the Bible (more important than our rites, since it doesn't change and it's God's word) in a language other than the original one He used, it's very peculiar that normal humans have invented a new Christian duty to preserve a random language in which our rites are in.

Apparently, our Lord Christ was not aware that departing from the language of His ancestors was a sin - blasphemy. If it's good enough for Christ, it's good enough for us.

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ophadeece

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 02:21 PM

Dear Truth.Seeker,
I apologise because I didn't understand your first point better. I should have done. In fact, there is something I would like to stress on here, since you are not the first one to mention it. Preaching the Bible and Evangelisation are not part of what we are talking about. We are talking about preservation of the Coptic language. If we want to preach the Christian Orthodox denomination to the world so that they believe in it, there is not better way to do that in Coptic - Coptic Orthodox isn't it? As opposed to Syrian, Russian, Greek Orthodox, etc? Let's imagine if you, I, and a bunch of our friends, who let's say speak Arabic only and don't understand English as much, and are attracted one way or another to the Church of England - what are we expecting? That they change the way they are praying for us for thousands of years? No. But we will be required at least from our consciences point of view to learn to speak better English to follow along the prayers and keep to the church we go to. That is the sole point: we as Copts can't agree on one thing is to pray in Coptic and utilise the Americans, Australians, English, French, Germans, Italians, and so on as a reason to relieve our conscience and avoid learning, or sticking to our language. Let's face it; we have been islamised, and now we are weak and unreasonable when it comes to holding on to what we have got: a treasure that no one can understand except when really getting involved in it, and loving it. That is my whole point; making other people love it, and not loathe it.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 04:21 PM

So much to say, but I will keep my word, and let the thread go in peace Smile.

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atthoowi

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 05:55 PM

Looks like I am posting at the right time Smile 2 posts state you won't argue this further.

Anyway, the main reasons(theologically) to preserve Coptic are

1. Not to change the church's teaching and theological understanding. Coptic is static, Arabic, English, and every other language is in flux.

2. Coptic liturgy/bible gives us a clear view of our fathers understanding of Christ, the scripture, and theology. As copts, we need to understand orthodoxy as Copts, not Greek, English, or any other type of Orthodoxy.

Read the following articles (4 of them) on the reasons to preserve latin in the Catholic church. These reasons also fit the Coptic Church and why it should preserve Coptic.



Vatican, Feb. 26 (CWNews.com) - A new document on the use of Latin in the Church, and the teaching of Latin in seminaries, is expected sometime this year.

Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, the prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education, has confirmed that he hopes the document being prepared by that Congregation will be published in 2004.

"In order not to mutilate herself, the Church cannot fail to conserve her tradition and patrimony written in Latin," the Polish cardinal remarked during a February 25 meeting in Rome. He pointed out that Latin remains the official language of the Roman Church, and the official documents of the magisterium are written in that language. Therefore, he concluded, the Church needs priests who are familiar with the language, in order to ensure that they fully understand Catholic teachings.

Cardinal Grocholewski expressed regret that previous Vatican statements encouraging the teaching of Latin in Catholic seminaries-- such as Pope Paul VI's Veterum Sapentia of 1962-- are clearly not being applied. He added that Pope John Paul II (bio - news) had also encouraged Latin study in his 1979 apostolic constitution Sapientia Christiana, and the 1983 Code of Canon Law states calls for a "good understanding" of Latin among Catholic priests. On the 40th anniversary of Veterum Sapentia, Pope John Paul said that he would like to see "an ever stronger love for that language among the candidates for the priesthood."

The Congregation for Catholic Education, which is preparing the new document on the use of Latin, is asking a group of Latin scholars to review the proposed text. After that editorial review, the document will be sent to the presidents of the world's episcopal conferences before being made public. Cardinal Grocholewski indicated that he hoped that entire process would be complete before the end of 2004.
We use the Latin in our Mass for a few reasons:
1. We serve an international Catholic community. Jews have Hebrew, Muslims have Arabic, Christians have Latin. It's the language of the Church and it does unite us with our brothers and sisters from Africa, Asia, Europe and Central America.
2. Latin is supposed to be used! Although the vernacular is encouraged in the celebration of the Mass, Latin was never to have been abandoned.
3. Young people appreciate tradition. In the 70's, the priests and nuns listened to the youth and celebrated Mass that would bring relevance to their lives. From Masses held in the middle of fields, to the priest painted up in clown makeup and dancing around the altar, to the nun wearing a stole made of burlap and playing "I AM WOMAN" for the closing hymn, innovation and creativity was used during Mass. And it wasn't too cool. It was more like your dad singing a Gwen Stefani song to be "hip".
The youth of this generation wants stability and something they can count on. The use of Latin and the reverence given to the Mass is something that is more than "cute" or grasping at relevance. It's true.
4. Ole Miss is a teaching institution. So why not learn how to be Catholic? I have an obligation as pastor to give you the best our Catholic tradition has so when you move on in 2, 4, 13 years, you at least will have the fundamentals of the faith that will have you at home in any Church throughout the world. You're welcome.
“For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time... of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non- vernacular.” (Pope Pius XI, Officiorum Omnium, 1922).
“The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine.” (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 1947).
“The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic and non-vernacular.” (Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, 1962).
“The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety... we must not hold in low esteem these traditions of your fathers which were your glory for centuries.” (Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, 1966).
The Popes and Latin
In 1922, for example, Pius XI - in his document Officiorum Omnium - said: "The Church - precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time - of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."
Quarter of a century later, his successor Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei: "The use of the Latin language affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine."
In 1962, the father of Vatican Two, Pope John XXIII, issued his encyclical Veterum Sapientia. The Pope spoke of the special value of Latin which had proved so admirable a means for the spreading of Christianity and which had proved to be a bond of unity for the Christian peoples of Europe.
He continued: "Of its very nature, Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favour any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.
"Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin's formal structure. Its concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.
"For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws. She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.
"The Church - because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time - of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.
"Modern languages are liable to change, and no single language is superior to the others in authority. Thus, if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would also be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.
"But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. It has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use.
"Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.
"In addition, the Latin language can be called truly catholic. It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Church's teaching. It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.
"There can be no doubt as to the formative and educational value of the language and great literature of the Romans. It is a most effective training for the pliant minds of youth. It exercises, matures and perfects the principal faculties of mind and spirit. It sharpens the wits and gives keenness of judgment. It helps the young mind to grasp things accurately and develop a true sense of values. It is also a means for teaching highly intelligent thought and speech.
"The use of Latin has recently been queried in many quarters, and many people are asking about the mind of the Apostolic See in this matter. We have therefore decided to issue this document, so as to ensure that the ancient and uninterrupted use of Latin be maintained and, where necessary, restored.
"So many people, unaccountably dazzled by the marvellous progress of science, are taking it upon themselves to oust or restrict the study of Latin and other kindred subjects. Yet, the greatest impression is made on the mind by those things which correspond more closely to man's nature and dignity. And therefore the greatest zeal should be shown in the acquisition of whatever educates and ennobles the mind. Otherwise poor mortal creatures may well become like the machines they build - cold, hard, and devoid of love."
"Bishops and superiors-general of religious orders shall be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, eager for revolutionary changes, writes against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See's will in this regard or interprets it falsely.
"Professors of the sacred sciences in universities or seminaries are required to speak Latin and to make use of textbooks written in Latin. If ignorance of Latin makes it difficult for some to obey these instructions, they shall gradually be replaced by professors who are suited to this task.
"Since Latin is the Church's living language, it must be furnished with new words that are apt and suitable for expressing modern things, words that will be uniform and universal in their application and constructed in conformity with the genius of the ancient Latin tongue."
In 1966, a mere four years after publication of Pope John's encyclical, Pope Paul VI, who presided over much of the Second Vatican Council, issued his own encyclical Sacrificium Laudis, echoing the views of Pope John. He said: "The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety. We must not hold in low esteem these traditions of our fathers which were our glory for centuries."
Even Pope John Paul II, in his 1980 letter on the mystery and worship of the Eucharist, praised Latin as an expression of the unity of the Church which, through its dignified character, elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic mystery. He said it was necessary to show understanding and full respect towards those Catholics who missed the use of the old Latin liturgy, and to accommodate their desires as far as possible. He said the Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself.
In 1998, Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, addressing three thousand traditional Catholics in Rome, said some people accused traditionalists of lack of obedience to the Second Vatican Council. He pointed out that the Council did not prohibit the former liturgical books but only ordered their revision. He recalled the observation of Cardinal Newman that the Church, throughout her history, had never abolished nor forbidden orthodox liturgical forms.
The Cardinal said several forms of the Latin rite had always existed, and were only slowly withdrawn, as a result of the coming together of the different parts of Europe. He recalled that Vatican II's Constitution on the Liturgy did not speak at all about celebration facing the altar or facing the people. It said that Latin should be retained, although a greater place should be given to the vernacular.
The Cardinal criticised modern liturgists who developed the ideas of the Council only in one direction. He said they ended up reversing the intentions of the Council and reducing the role of the priest to that of a mere functionary. He said there was also a dangerous tendency by some liturgists to minimise the sacrificial character of the Mass, causing the mystery and the sacred to disappear, on the pretext that they could thus make things better understood.
But the Cardinal said there was now a certain disenchantment with this banal rationalism, and he could discern a return to mystery, adoration and the sacred.
Pope John Paul II, in February 2002, expressed his desire that "the love of [Latin] would grow ever strong among candidates for the priesthood." In a message written in Latin to a conference commemorating the 40th anniversary of Veterum Sapientia, Pope John Paul said the use of Latin was ³an indispensable condition for a proper relationship between modernity and antiquity, for dialogue among different cultures, and for reaffirming the identity of the Catholic priesthood."
But the views of the Popes have been ignored. Even the Bishops have largely abandoned the use of Latin - to the point where Pope John Paul, at the Bishops' synod in Rome, joked that the "sin of the synod" was that they no longer spoke Latin.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 07:24 PM

Very good point athoowi, well said.

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ophadeece

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 09:33 PM

Hope we can learn and not to be too stubborn saying "oh, this is closed-mindedness with language and other trivial stuff, not fundamental in faith issues".
God bless you all and pray for us a lot

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 13, 2008 - 10:24 PM

Nice strategic move atthoowi Wink.

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Remnkemi

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posted on May 15, 2008 - 10:15 PM

From Truth.Seeker:God did not invent the Coptic language. We were not created speaking Coptic. An identity is something that is created by society, not God. Like I told Remnkemi, if we follow that argument, then anyone born into a pagan society is to stay pagan because that's the "identity that God gave him."

You didn't tell or convince me of anything Truth.Seeker. I choose not respond to your messages because you don't listen and you twist everything. So don't use my name to support your arguments.

By the way, both God the Father and Jesus used the term "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." God declares His identity and you say an identity is created by society, not God. And notice it was not a "theological" identity that you insist is the only proper explanation of things. He did not say, "I am the God of the Omnipotence, the Incomprehensible, Limitless, No beginning ad No End divine nature."

Whether or not you want to use Coptic or learn Coptic is a personal decision. But don't go around telling people that the only reason to keep Coptic is unity and Coptic has no value of itself.


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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 15, 2008 - 10:55 PM

Remnkemi,

You used the same argument that I was replying to. I said I already responded to that argument. Whether you were convinced or not doesn't matter - I responded to that argument in my discussion with you. If you didn't read it, that's your business. Scroll up, you'll find my reply to you. I did not say you were convinced of the argument, I said I made it.

Obviously I was talking about human identities, not the identity of God. So, your reply is irrelevant. We know God to be omnipotent because He said he's all powerful, we say He's omniscient because He said so. We say He has no beginning and no end because He said so. You speak English now because the English language is in society.

I already learned Coptic. I'll go around telling people whatever I want to tell them.

P.S. your post is completely ridiculous and unnecessary.

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Iqbal

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 12:40 AM

A Saint, Confessor and Bishop from the seventh century, our contemporary Bishops and present (and previous) Patriarch, and one of the most learned and influential experts on Coptic Orthodox ritual theology (who also happens to be a monk from the monastery of St Pachomios)--all these authorities testify to some divine association with the Coptic language as a language that was divinely selected and sanctified in such a way that to discard it would be tantamount to discarding the relics of the Saints which are very much living vessels of Grace as much as they are the ancient bones of persons who have long been physically dead. The unanimity of their authoritative voices clearly suffices to completely dispel the apparent force of any contrary opinion on the subject that has been raised thus far.

The question to ask in pursuit to discern the truth on any matter, let alone on the issue of how we should understand the importance of Coptic, is, according to the Orthodox 'phronema', not "what does the Bible say?", but rather, "what does the Church say?"

The Church is the ultimate authority; the Church interprets the Scriptures and draws upon the Scriptures as one of many sources of divine truths. The Scriptures are not static nor bound by historical context or the restraints of a critical-textual approach, at least not for us Orthodox. The Holy Spirit, as the ultimate source of the Scriptures, has the discretion to lift any given Scriptural verse from the boundaries of any given contextual factor or hermeneutical approach, so as to inspire the heirarchs of the Church to apply it in a certain way to any issue that we may not, at face value, otherwise deem relevant to the verse in question given our various contextual considerations--be they historical, textual, or otherwise.

If Pope Kyrillos VI, as ophadeece suggests, used the one Sciptural verse that has been raised for consideration in this thread, in favour of the position that the Coptic heritage must be preserved, then that stands as the most reliable and authoritative indication of the direction the Scriptures lean towards on the matter--not only on account of his position of authority, but also, and maybe even more importantly, on account of his spiritual charisma which will without a doubt result in his imminent canonisation once all formal pre-conditions have been fulfilled. No individual lay person is in a position to rebutt that interpretation with their own private, and clearly non-sequitor, interpretation.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 01:31 AM

Iqbal,

Let me start by saying that was nicely-written. Almost poetic! Now let me address a few issues in a less poetic way (which are not directly related to this topic because I said I'm done with that) about Coptic Orthodoxy in general:

Short of a decision from the Holy Synod saying something, the Church has not spoken. Short of infallibility of our Popes, you can't say that the Holy Spirit guided them in every one of their interpretations. St. Augustine has been canonized, the Coptic Church disagrees with at least half of his teachings. None of your factors "completely dispel[s] the apparent force of any contrary opinion on the subject that has been raised thus far."

Are these things strong support for the position? Only as far as the premises being used. If "A Saint, Confessor and Bishop from the seventh century, our contemporary Bishops and present (and previous) Patriarch, and one of the most learned and influential experts on Coptic Orthodox ritual theology (who also happens to be a monk from the monastery of St Pachomios)" get together and declare 2 + 2 = 3, I'd reply with, "I respectfully must point out that you are wrong."

As for my arguments being clearly non sequitur, clearly I don't think so Smile.

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Remnkemi

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 02:20 AM

From Truth.Seeker:
P.S. your post is completely ridiculous and unnecessary.


My post is definitely necessary. This is a forum for discussion. Every time someone says something you disagree with you respond with comments like "that argument is irrelevant", "Your first two words nullify the rest of your reply" and "Better to expose them (other opinions) and deal with them now than when trying to get someone to learn Coptic". On top of this you take any argument that is not your own and respond with extreme sarcasim. You've taken the identity argument, which has both Biblical and Ecclesiastical foundation, and turned it into some sort of Calvinism, pre-destination heresy. You've taken the ancestor argument and turned it into a useless battle of words (arguing who really is our ancestor - pagans). Now you're turning the ecclesiastical authority argument that Iqbal gave into papal infallibility.

What is really unnecessary is your need to invalidate everybody who disagrees with you. You have your opinion. Don't go around using empty rhetoric to argue that other opinions are wrong.


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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 03:46 AM

"Now you can hold the view that nothing outside the Church (or outside theology) is valuable like Truth.Seeker believes. This, in my opinion, is inadequate regarding the language."

How DARE you mention my name? Or as you would put it, "So don't use my name to support your arguments." Were you having a power trip or something? You truly think I'd mention your name because I thought that'd give my argument some kind of support? Your post is as ridiculous as it gets.

The following is humorous:

You said:

"Every time someone says something you disagree with you respond with comments like 'that argument is irrelevant'"

Then you said:

"You've taken the ancestor argument and turned it into a useless battle of words..."

So it's not ok for me to say your argument is irrelevant but you can say my argument is useless.

The arguments I make are not about twisting words, my arguments are about the underlying premises and/or implications of an argument. You know who else argued like this? Sts. Athanasius and Cyril. You should read St. Athanasius's "Four Discourses Against the Arians," and St. Cyril's Tomes to Nestorius. See how much argument against implications they engage in.

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Iqbal

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 04:02 AM

Dear Truth.Seeker,

Let me begin by saying that whilst I find your zeal admirable in a sense, I really feel you need to bridle it a bit. I truly hope you are, as your nickname suggests, one who seeks the truth, rather than one who prematurely presumes what the truth is without having any inclination to allow such a presumption to be overturned.

Short of a decision from the Holy Synod saying something, the Church has not spoken.

Synods address matters when the need to do so is of immediate pertinence to the continued integrity of the already held truth in regard to such matters. The fact the Holy Synod has not officially ruled in regard to the divine underpinnings of the Coptic language, therefore, is not an indication that the Church has not spoken on the matter; it simply means that the idea has not been challenged on a scale that is wide or serious enough for the Church to codify her already existent position on the matter at a Synodal level.

Short of infallibility of our Popes, you can't say that the Holy Spirit guided them in every one of their interpretations.

You’re attacking a straw man. I clearly did not "say that the Holy Spirit guided [our popes] in every one of their interpretations” or even imply such a thing.

Second of all, in the absence of any strong authoritative evidence to the contrary, a Patriarch’s interpretation of the Scriptures is to generally be assumed as guided by the Holy Spirit by virtue of his position as a Bishop of the Church of Christ. The fact such a Patriarch or Bishop’s interpretation does no more than challenge your own personal interpretation is certainly no credible basis upon which to question the sound assumption that they speak according to the Spirit. If you can find an opposing interpretation by a different Church Father, for example, it is then that the assumption in question may reasonably come under question insofar as it applies to the particular case at hand. On the contrary, however, every other Church Father, ancient and contemporary, saintly and scholarly, who has spoken on the matter of the Divine's association with the Coptic language, has done so in such a way that is entirely consistent with Pope Kyrillos’ interpretation.

None of your factors "completely dispel[s] the apparent force of any contrary opinion on the subject that has been raised thus far."

The readers can decide for themselves whether the personal conjecture of an anonymous online forum member outweighs the position of our Patriarchs, Saints, Bishops and theologians. You have the right to your own opinion though.

St. Augustine has been canonized, the Coptic Church disagrees with at least half of his teachings.

No, it doesn’t, actually. But this thread is not about St Augustine, so please excuse me as I gently replace the lid of the can of worms you’ve just opened.

I do understand that you’re trying to make a more general point though, so let me address that. Is it possible that a canonised Saint has erred in one regard or another? Yes. Again, this observation has little to do with the overall argument being made:

First of all, one can only be so bold so as to judge that a Saint has erred if it is clear that their teaching on the matter in question is strongly opposed by the overwhelming position of other authorities and saints which stand to the contrary, and not because they challenge one’s personal conviction on the matter. So far you have not offered strong authority to the contrary, but only your personal conviction as to what is and what is not compatible with the “Christian ethos.” Forgive me if I choose to believe that Pope Kyrillos VI had a better understanding of the “Christian ethos” than yourself.

Second of all, not only is there no strong authority to the contrary of this saint’s position, but there is strong and unanimous authority in favour of that position. I did not appeal to one figure in the course of making my point, but appealed to the unanimous voice of all authorities known to have spoken on the matter in dispute.

Lastly, you may want to consider the fact that the seventh century Saint I referred to in my previous post declared the Divine's association with the Coptic language in the same breath that he prophesied of the imminent Arab invasion. You don't really want to argue that the Holy Spirit, in the course of inspiring this Saint to prophesy, ceased inspiring him half-way through the sentence (i.e. just before the half that asserts the Divine's association with the Coptic language), do you?

If "A Saint, Confessor and Bishop from the seventh century, our contemporary Bishops and present (and previous) Patriarch, and one of the most learned and influential experts on Coptic Orthodox ritual theology (who also happens to be a monk from the monastery of St Pachomios)" get together and declare 2 + 2 = 3, I'd reply with, "I respectfully must point out that you are wrong."

Well our Saints and hierarchs are not authorities on mathematics and logic, and the matter in dispute is itself not a matter of mathematics and logic (Scriptural exegesis is, according to the Orthodox perspective, penultimately a spiritual exercise as I explained in my previous post), as much as you may think it is, so your point really bears no relevance to anything.

As for my arguments being clearly non sequitur, clearly I don't think so.

Well if you think, for example, that your broad and face-value interpretation of a term that is linguistically open to multiple interpretations, historically intended within a particular context, and spiritually open to whichever application the Spirit sees fit, is the only possible interpretation of the text, then...that is your choice I guess...

In Christ,
Iqbal

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 04:44 AM

Iqbal,

I could tell you the same thing about being open to other opinions - my opinion in particular. It's interesting that people only say that line to those that disagree with them.

You are right with respect to which issues the Holy Synod addresses, but as long as a subject is not addressed by the Holy Synod, then we cannot know which side is correct.

You argued that since the pope said something, I should take it as he said it. That only works if he can't make a mistake (infallible). If he can make a mistake, we can't know if he made a mistake on this one or not - therefore your argument fails. It's not a strawman if it's an underlying premise of your argument. It's only a strawman if it's not related.

The numerical example was to show that a saint is not always correct. I used numbers because they're not open to interpretation.

The saint was in the seventh century - it didn't take much to see that the Arabs who had just invaded multiple other places in the Middle East would come to Egypt. If that's the "prophecy," then there are about a thousand other people who made the same "prophecy."

"Historically intended within a particular context, and spiritually open to whichever application the Spirit sees fit." Talk about being open to truth - you just told me that your opinion came from the Holy Spirit.

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 04:46 AM

P.S. Remnkemi, you may want to tell Iqbal that telling me my argument has "no relevance" and that I don't make sense (non siquitur) is unacceptable. Like I said, these things are only pointed out when someone who's not in agreement is saying them.

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 05:35 AM

Truth.seeker on what grounds do you judge what a Saint or Saint(s) says is wrong or not? You rightly said that if a Saint proclaimed that 2 + 2 = 3 you would not agree with them. But is it the same case here?

You also rightly said that no Saint or human is infallible (except the Lord Jesus), but on what basis (you also being under the same condition) do you decipher whether one speaks the truth or not? Is it not granted that it would be better to trust in people of Divine Authority, who have been inspired by the Holy Spirit (to which I am sure you do not deny), then ourselves?

No one ever said to blindly follow all that the Holy Synod or Saints ever said, but if they are the human guiding pillar of the Church, which is lead by the True Guide of the Universe, the Paraclete, on what basis do you judge them?

GB

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 06:06 AM

This is my last post, I simply don't have the time to carry this any further.

You are right with respect to which issues the Holy Synod addresses, but as long as a subject is not addressed by the Holy Synod, then we cannot know which side is correct.

As I tried to make clear, a Synod confirms an already held and known truth, it does not make a truth known as if it were uncertain beforehand.

A cursory study of Church history will reveal that our Fathers vigorously argued in favour of a particular position against their detractors before a Synod was ever convoked to officially deal with the issue being debated. If prior to the convocation of such a Synod the truth of the matter was uncertain, then why were the Fathers arguing their point as if it were the certain truth? Maybe you would like to argue that you have a better handle on Orthodox epistemology than they did? I don’t think you’d want to go down that road. The fact of the matter is that the idea that the truth cannot be known before it is pronounced as such by a Synod is alien to the last 2, 000 years of Church history. The Church has always recognised the authority of the consensus partum as being determinative of certain truths, and as such has always invoked patristic testimony and episcopal authority to argue for the truth of a certain position. When St Severus of Antioch, for example, was asked to pronounce the Church’s position on apokatastasis, he didn’t respond with the sentiment of, “sorry folks, until a Synod has made a determination on the matter, we do not know what the truth of the matter is.” He argued vigorously against such a concept and drew upon a vast Scriptural and patristic corpus to prove his point.

You argued that since the pope said something, I should take it as he said it.

Yes, but you misrepresented the basis upon which I argued that you should take his word for it. That basis was not the mere fact that the Pope said it.

That only works if he can't make a mistake (infallible).

No, that’s non-sequitor. It works if other conditions (i.e. consistency with other authorities, absence of contrary authority etc.), which I discussed at length, are fulfilled so as to confirm the general, and as such rebuttable, assumption that he, by virtue of his episcopal position, speaks with divine authority.

It's not a strawman if it's an underlying premise of your argument. It's only a strawman if it's not related.

It is a straw-man precisely because the infallibility of the pope is not an underlying premise of my argument. Not only did I explicitly pronounce the underlying premises of my argument, but I discussed them at length, so I did not even leave you with any reasonable scope to make such an unreasonable presumption in the first place.

The numerical example was to show that a saint is not always correct. I used numbers because they're not open to interpretation.

I already agreed with the point that a particular Saint is not always necessarily correct. We are not dealing with the theoretical possibility of a Saint erring. We are dealing with a concrete example of a particular Saint’s application of a Scriptural verse and dealing with it in consideration of its particular context. I have not appealed to the mere fact a Saint said X to argue in favour of the correctness of X which is what you don’t seem to be understanding.

As an aside, you may want to speak to a mathematician (someone with a PhD in mathematics) on the matter of whether 2 + 2 can only = 4. Clearly you’re thinking on simple lay terms, and have not considered the implications of Gödel's Second Incompleteness Theorem to the absoluteness of such mathematical statements. Whilst we may assume that 2 + 2 = 4 because such is necessary for us to function in life, there is no logically necessary reason to believe so.

The saint was in the seventh century - it didn't take much to see that the Arabs who had just invaded multiple other places in the Middle East would come to Egypt. If that's the "prophecy," then there are about a thousand other people who made the same "prophecy."

Okay, so now we’re reduced to undermning the integrity of a Saint’s spiritual charisma for the sake of defending our argument? The Saint in question delivered the particular speech in question as if it were a divine prophecy, and it has gone down in the tradition of the Church as nothing less than a prophecy. You may be interested to know that the prophecy is not simply a general foretelling of the conquest of Egypt but it even details the kind of persecution the Church would face and the way in which the faithful would react. That is why secular scholars who have dealt with this have been inclined to deem it as reflecting a post-Arab-invasion fabrication, as opposed to deeming it as reflecting a pre-Arab invasion common sense expectation.

By the way, I know of no historian who speaks of the conquest of Egypt as though it were an event that would have been so foreseeable so as to be expected. As far as I recall, Walter Emil Kaegi argues that quite the opposite was the case.

"Historically intended within a particular context, and spiritually open to whichever application the Spirit sees fit." Talk about being open to truth - you just told me that your opinion came from the Holy Spirit.

Huh? I was actually alluding to the point I made earlier about how the Holy Spirit is capable of lifting a particular verse out of its usual exegetical constraints so as to allow it to serve as the basis of a position on a matter that one would otherwise deem to be irrelevant to the verse in question. The implication of that is that no interpretation *necessarily* flows from any given text in a manner so as to exclude any other.

I have not posited any opinion to begin with, other than the opinion that we should submit to the authorities of the Church. Given that that opinion is itself one strongly expounded by numerous Fathers throughout the last 2, 000 years, then yes, I do believe that such is an opinion inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I am open to the truth, I simply do not think that there is such a thing as determining the truth apart from consideration of authorities. So whilst I am generally open to the truth, I am nevrtheless constrained by the basic principles of Orthodox epistemology. Surely you cannot fault me for that.

In Christ,
Iqbal

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 12:40 PM

"As I tried to make clear, a Synod confirms an already held and known truth, it does not make a truth known as if it were uncertain beforehand."

If it were certain beforehand, there wouldn't be a dispute for the Synod to resolve. And by "certain" I mean known to all. Of course the faith has existed since eternity.

"Yes, but you misrepresented the basis upon which I argued that you should take his word for it. That basis was not the mere fact that the Pope said it."

That doesn't make sense, if you're referring to his spirituality, I already gave the example of St. Augustine - half of his teachings are rejected by the Coptic Church. So, a spiritual saint can make mistakes and the pope can make mistakes - that's why arguing from authority is bad logic unless that authority is infallible. You should look it up in the same book you got "non-sequitor" from.

Left me with no reasonable scope? Do me a favor and stop writing like this, if you're going to write like that - use it for high schoolers or college students for that matter, they may shrink by your usage of these words, I just find it annoying. Just for kicks - it's not "non-sequitor" it's non sequitur. Are we going to really go through this path?

You need to brush up on your history.

When the Church has not spoken, there's no authoritative teaching to submit to. If the Coptic Synod were to pass something saying the Coptic language has divine worth in and of itself, I'll start going to an Armenian Church.

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 12:43 PM

Mikokiko,

I just saw your post, but I gotta go. I'll reply later (you make good points and I need to clarify some stuff I said).

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 01:00 PM

Mikokiko,

You're right - it's not the same case here. I was just saying that there are times when a saint is wrong - so as usual, I gave the extreme example. Here, it's not as absolute as math. But the grounds are on simple exegesis. Like I previously mentioned, Christ found it just fine to deviate from the original language that He Himself used for the Bible and spoke in Aramaic while translating the Septuagint. He went from original Hebrew to speaking in Aramaic about the Greek translation of Hebrew.

I don't know why the seventh century saint said what he said, I don't even have what he said. For all we know, he thought that since everything in Church was done in Coptic, if the Arabs came in and just made us do everything in Arabic, we're going to cease to exist as a Church because we won't understand the Arabic, i.e. had no time to translate stuff and understand the language.

But instead of trying to get into unverifiable discussions, i.e. what someone meant when he said what, I address the core issue - how much weight we should put on what they have said no matter what they meant.

Absolutely, all of us are fallible, I'm the most fallible. But like I've mentioned before, there are a lot of saints who said a lot of stuff that the Church does not agree with. Just that by itself stops me from saying, "a saint said it, so it is." For example, I read a bunch of stuff from St. Augustine before knowing the Coptic Church views him as a saint. I was shocked later on to find out we consider him a saint.

So, the grounds is that arguing from authority is illogical unless that authority is infallible. At some point will I say, "the evidence is overwhelming?" Absolutely - I just need to be provided with evidence. Also, the more "out there" I view something, the more I'd need to be convinced of it.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 16, 2008 - 06:13 PM

Truth.seeker, you write your post, (and it would have been well taken) as if the Holy Spirit was some kind of ideal and not a true Divine Person: infallible and the Guider to Truth. And if He is simply an ideal, some kind of perfection we all just ascribe to achieve, I agree with you 100%. But that is not true. God is Vicarious, He reveals Himself in special ways to special people at special times, that is what it means to be Holy. And for God, there are those who are what the Church declares as the successors of the Apostles. They are in fact the living Apostles of the twenty first century, and of all the centuries that preceded it.

So what? So what if one of them is wrong? (You are right, they are not THE Holy Spirit, they are inspired by Him), but that is why we do not have ONE ABSOLUTE AUTHOURITY In THE CHURCH. This is the Body of Christ, to each his own. To each person his rank in the Church, he has a role (that is, if he is given authourity, something that all have the opportunity of having). And as a Body, we do not work by ourselves. We work with one another, so that if St. Augustine makes a mistake, the majority of the saints and fathers stand up to him and say "Brother, you have erred insofar as you have said that this is true." Do not forget that we are a Church of unity, not of several individuals with different opinions, but of ONE BODY reaching a consensus. If God has called each of these men to the priesthood and to the Bishopric of the Apostles, do not degrade what God has put in place.

Do not deny the power of the Spirit of God in these men, He is working just the same as He was yesterday, today, and forever, as the Truth remains. And let us do what we are called to do by our Lord Jesus, to the Apostles and their successors: SUBMIT. Submit to them, as wives do to their husbands, and children to their parents. If we cannot do that, then we should never speak on behalf of the Church and what she believes. There is no "I" in Church, there is "We" the Body of Christ Himself. There is Unity in consensus, and there is one True Leader, the God of the Universe, Who leads us by His Reason, our Lord Jesus Christ and in His Holy Spirit, the Paraclete of Truth.

God Bless

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