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Matzpah

posted on Jun 14, 2008 - 11:27 PM

How did it come about that many Coptic churches have an iconostasis? Is this a borrowing from Byzantine use? If so, when did this happen? And why?

Also, are there any non-Coptic churches in the Oriental Orthodox communion that also use an iconostasis?

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Eastern Orthodox

Joined: Jul 05, 2005 | Posts: 40
Location: Nativity of Our Lord, Virginia

stefanos

posted on Jun 15, 2008 - 06:18 PM

Christ is Risen
XPICTOC ANECTH

Blessed Feast of Pentecost and upcoming Apostles Fast.

I will suggest this book which is entirely online here:

http://www.saint-mary.net/coptic_faith/ ... eofGod.pdf

It has an entire chapter on the Iconostasis. Not to reiterate but all Coptic Orthodox Churches have the iconostasis symbolizing the wall which separated the Holy of Holies (Sanctuary) from the rest of the Temple (Nave) but now open to us through Christ. The iconostasis has been present in some sort since the early centuries with proof being in the oldest monasteries (St. Anthony, St. Pishoy (Paisios), etc.) and older churches such as Sts. Sergius and Bacchus (Abu Serga) and the Hanging Church in Coptic (old) Cairo (4th Cent). If you google images you will find many examples of the Coptic Iconostasis.

Regarding the second question: There are definitely other Oriental Orthodox who have the iconostasis. The Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox have a very similar iconostasis as the Coptic Orthodox which makes sense. The Syriac Orthodox and Indian Orthodox have an iconostasis but usually with less icons. Finally the Armenian Orthodox do not use a full iconostasis but have a curtain and usually icons as well. Again, if you google images you should find examples.

Hope this helps. Pray for me.

Stefanos

Joined: Nov 26, 2003 | Posts: 116
Location: Michigan

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 16, 2008 - 12:02 AM

Just to add a bit - icons in the Coptic Church were established long before they were established in the East as legitimate (Seventh Ecumenical Council). At that point, the Coptic and Byzantine churches had already excommunicated one another. Hard to imagine that the Coptic Church would take something from a church it had excommunicated, especially when that something was established in the Coptic Church long before the other church.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432

Peter

posted on Jun 16, 2008 - 03:25 AM

Yes among the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Coptic is the most "Byzantine" in character. But one has to be careful in claiming one church borrowed from the other (you tend to run into the chicken or the egg type argument); certain things originally thought to be purely Byzantine in origin were found to be either Coptic in origin; such as the Liturgy of St.Basil, or developed independantly in both, such lack of statuary.

The use of icons in the Byzantine church was well established before the second council of Constantinople, which was held to combat iconclastic innovations by the Emporer Leo the Isaurian and his sons.

Joined: Mar 18, 2003 | Posts: 427
Location: Jersey City, NJ

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 16, 2008 - 09:38 PM

The Second Council of Constantinople was the Fifth Council (dealt with problems at Chalcedon - the Fourth). I wrote "established as legitimate" above because you are right - they were in use long before the Seventh Council (otherwise, there'd be nothing for the opponents to oppose). But the matter was problematic enough to result in Council. Even Arianism was only resolved at a Council after it became somewhat full-blown.

Really, my whole point, was that the Coptic Church wouldn't have taken anything after 451 AD. Combine that was the early use of icons you mentioned (which I did not mention - an error on my part since I was relying on it in my statement) in the Coptic Church, and you get an almost impossibility of it being taken from the Byzantine Church. Any such use would have to go back before the 3rd century.

If I am not mistaken, at the present, we have Coptic iconostases older than the oldest Byzantine iconostasis found.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432