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posted on Jun 17, 2008 - 04:35 AM
I was wondering if any of you knew what exactly the Church Canons are concerning selecting a new priest being added to a Church? Who should be involved in the process, and how should it go about? Any answers to any of these questions is greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
posted on Jun 19, 2008 - 06:25 AM
The congregation selects someone. Either they request it from the bishop of a diocese, or other clergy nominate the priest. Since I go to the Southern California/Hawaiian diocese, the congregation or priests nominate then the Bishop chooses if they are right for the job. That is on his discretion.
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posted on Jun 19, 2008 - 08:14 AM
Usually the congregation helps select. If they feel a certain person fits the role, then whoever is in charge of ordaining the priest and assigning him makes the final word. I don't know if this is rites or just tradition.
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posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 12:16 AM
From mikokiko:OK thanks a lot for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Anyone else, know anything at all?
I live in the Southern Diocese under the auspice of His Grace Bishop Youssef. When a community needs a priest or another priest they tell His Grace and he finds someone, usually from a different and not the same one, then he brings them to the church and lets the congregation meet the selected person. If the congregation has no problem with him then he is ordained. If the congregation has a problem His Grace will find someone, but Bishop Youssef does not like to choose a member from the same church.
If you do not have a Bishop usually what happens is the congregation and the priest will select a member of the congregation of their church or from a different church and have them meet the congregation and speak with them to get to know them better. Afterwards they will get in touch with the Patriach office and arrange it with the Patriach's office. If the Pope is busy or unable to ordain the person His Holiness will send Bishops in his place. This is the usual case.
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andrew
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posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 03:20 AM
From mikokiko:So it should never be solely the priest's choice, as in, the congregation shouldn't be excluded?
The way church politics works is that the existing Abouna is supposed to have the final say but the congregation should never be excluded from a decision because, after all, they have to get along with the candidate for priesthood.
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 05:27 AM
As a coptic orthodox who is deeply involved in the congregation of our church, i believe that everyone has a right to their opinion in deciding whether or not a new priest should go into a church. however, i also do believe that the priest of that church , who does have the breath of the holy spirit inside of him, has every right to make this decision with the pope and other priests or bishops....this is because , every person in teh congregation has a job, a family, a life other than the church...other than the saturday and sunday that they go to the church, no matter what they say, they are not and will never be as involved int eh church as a priest and his family would be. Every priest has a right to decide which priest he should have serving with him. This is important because , no onyl will tehy be working together to build a , what we would like to say, "perfect church" but also , they will , together, find whats best for the church and its congregation. The priest that is currently in the church should have every right to choose who should be serving with him especially because the pope himself agrees or disagrees ... and if the pope agrees, then who are we to argue what the church needs when we , the congregation are only there for 2 days a week while the preist has his life immersed (sp?) in the church daily
Agree?
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 05:07 PM
SavedSinner,
First of all, what do you mean by "saved" in the name "savedsinner?" Are you saved? How? I get the feeling you are protestant, not Coptic Orthodox. ....Unless of course you are talking about the salvation which was brought on humanity through the Resurrection of Christ; then that is a different story. However, if you are talking about your personal salvation on the the last day of Judgement, then I beg to differ for it is impossible for you to determine your salvation status as "saved".
Secondly, yes, the other priest[s] should help in choosing the new priest that comes to their church but they most definitely do not have the final decision on weather or not that man will be ordained or not. The reason for that is that a man who is selected to become a priest might, for example, greatly lack in charisma and therefore may be perceived as being inefficient but in the eyes of God he might be one of the greatest men who walk upon the earth. I feel sometimes that we make the decision that a priest is truely great based on the amount of charisma they have but, in reality, some of the greatest clergy (priests included) have been men of prayer who walk softly on the face of the earth without being recognized for a single thing they do. Service is a spiritual-service and does not the most charismatic person in the world to perform it. Don't forget that in the end it is not the priest who moves the heart of the congregation towards Christ but it is rather God whom has the ability to move one's heart.
Thirdly, be careful in saying, [quote"]As a coptic orthodox who is deeply involved in the congregation of our church"[/quote] because there is no one who can't do more than what they are already doing. That phrase hints on a lot of things, which if I begin talking to you about you might become offended because I am not your foc. Be careful!
George Mekhaiel
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 08:31 PM
George Mikhaiel,
First of all,
I do not believe its your place to assume anything about the name that I have chosen as my username on this website. We are all sinners and we have all been saved by Christ's crucifixion/blood and given another chance to redeem ourselves and go to Heaven with Him. I don't feel that I need to explain my decisions in making this my username because the topic which we are currently discussing have nothing to do with my name. If you have a problem with the name "SavedSinner" then discuss it on another page. Protestant,Coptic Orthodox, Catholic..we are believers in Christ, we are in no place to assume who is goin to heaven or hell.
Second,
If I read correctly, I believe Mikokiko was asking about the Church already having a current priest and needing a new priest, one that is already ordained and prepared to go into a Church, not one who is chosen by the people to become ordained. As I said before, I believe that the congregation has every right to choose the Priest that they are going to have in their Church, but the Priest is the one who has his life immersed in the Church and has to deal with all the issues and problems that come and go in the Church. Therefore, the Priest who is to join the current Priest, should be chosen by the curent Priest and the Pope. If you re-read what I have written previously, you will understand what I am saying.
Thirdly,
You have no right to be offended by my saying "As a Coptic Orthodox who is deeply involved in the congregation of the Church" ... soley because you do not know who I am and do not know what Church I go to or anything that has to do with my services in the Church. Please do not continue to assume anything. I feel like you have only written your post to interrogate me and my opinions or beliefs and would greatly appreciate it if you stuck to the topic we are supposed to be discussing on this page.
Thank you.
Mikokiko, we still havent heard back from you, please reply when you can.
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 08:43 PM
"Blessed are You indeed, with Your gracious Father and the Holy Spirit, for You came and saved us. Have mercy on us!"
Indeed Christ redeemed humanity at the cross, it is up to us to accept His salvation or not, of our own accord. We are NOT saved in the sense that I have a mansion reserved for me in His palace no matter what I do, but I am saved in the sense that I am tasting the salvation He offered to mankind. This is what savedsinner means, and in this sense, saying that we are "saved" is not false. There are four types of salvation:
1. Christ saved humanity (made salvation accessible to all humans, by the means He has provided)
2. We the Church have been saved (as those who truly belong to the Church will all be saved)
3. I am saved by tasting His salvation now, and keeping it till my departure. (This is the sense that I think savedsinner means)
4. And there is, the complete salvation that awaits those in heaven that will be saved (but in a sense many are already saved, because time is not an issue, for those who will touch Eternity)
About the Church choosing. If I were to offer my own opinion I would say that those who are going to be served should choose their servant. With that said, I think most of the responsibility lies on the shoulders of the congregation, while of course the priest, co-operating with the congregation should give his honest advice about what he thinks of it.
GB
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 08:47 PM
SavedSinner means one thing to me
and I do not feel that I have to discuss this and make it worthy of your approval.
Thank you for your opinions on the Church and the Choosing of a Priest, ofcourse each one of us will have a different views and are given the full right to discuss them.
Im waiting to hear from Mikokiko and what his views are on this topic.
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 10:55 PM
Sinner and Mikokiko,
First of all, mokokiko, the name is not specific enough to address one of the four types of salvation that you spoke about. For all anyone could know, he could have been talking about the fourth type (meaning that he has a "mansion in heaven awaiting him").
Second of all, as far as I can tell, throughout history priests have always been chosen by the congregation. That is why during the consecration ceremony the congregation agrees to the ordination of the priest.
George Mekhaiel
posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 11:27 PM
Well, we all have mansions waiting for us. It's just a matter of accepting those mansions here on earth, by living the Salvation Himself, and holding on to Him eternally. If we do, which I think, anyone can say admittedly, partake of the Eternal Body of Holiness which our Lord sacrificed for us on the Cross, to redeem us from Satan, partake of the Mysteries of the Church, realize our unworthiness, and become selfless in the process, we will know where we are going.
It would be a great shame if no one could ever be certain of where they were going in the life to come, whether it be St. Mary, the Pope, or the right-hand thief, if we give our life, full attention, it should be evident to us. Let us embrace the life of the Mysteries that lead us to Virtue, and touch the palpable grace which He has given us, not through our merits. The only thing we have to do is accept it, by killing the self, and raising it up to become spiritually in Christ.
God Bless
posted on Jun 21, 2008 - 12:26 AM
Mikokiko,
Do you not understand that there are protestants out there who believe that as soon as you say, "I believe in Jesus Christ" that they have attained salvation. Let me put that in a way you could understand....They believe that they are not going to hell and are therefore, going to heaven. That is why the name "[i]saved[/s]sinner" seems a bit off.
If the reason the name was made was due to the general salvation brought upon humanity due to the blood of Jesus Christ; then the name is justified. But if it is "protestant" reasons; then the name is NOT justified.
It is foolish to guess what we don't know.
George Mekhaiel
I've had many "comparative theology" sessions with these protestants before...i'm not speaking out of lack of experience.
posted on Jun 21, 2008 - 12:45 AM
geomekhail, the falsehood in the protestant ideology is not that you can KNOW where you are going. I think that is very possible to know whether you are saved or not. The difference here is that they think once they have this single proclamation of life in Jesus, they are going to be saved, and there is nothing that they or anyone can do to make them fall. Which of course is false. Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is only real, if that belief is in real Substance, which MUST lead the person to virtue, and vice versa. To know that you are living the life of Mysteries and therefore are saved, is not false or wrong. It is muhammad who said of himself that even he didn't know where he was going. It would be a shame for us as Christians to not be able to tell which direction we are moving in, as if we had to "do our best, and wait and see the results (as if, we couldn't see them in this lifetime)." But Christ said "the kingdom of God is within you."
For indeed St. Paul and St. Silas said to the prison keeper: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Didn't Christ already save humanity? That's not what he meant. It is belief in Christ, the partaking of His Mysteries in His Divine Nature, and the Virtues that is the true faith in Christ. For faith without works is dead. It is not real, for what we truly believe will influence our actions. Not that one is temporally prior to the other.
God Bless
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