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mikehenry

posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 03:01 PM

Hey guys,

Blessed Apostles' fast to everyone

How do you translate the word/phrase "the alphabet" into Coptic?

GB,
Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 82
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

geomekhaiel

posted on Jun 20, 2008 - 04:48 PM

Have you tried looking it up on Crum's dictionary? I did! Look on pages 113 and 383 for more details. It's too much for me to write and explain.

George Mekhaiel

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George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

mikehenry

posted on Jun 22, 2008 - 05:14 PM

Hey George,

Thanks a lot for the references, but I'm not exactly sure how to interpret Crum's dictionary lol. All I could figure was from p383, that it's related to the verb `cqai. But I'm not sure if its supposed to be met`cqai or another form or derived word, or if its supposed to be gravy.

Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 82
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

geomekhaiel

posted on Jun 22, 2008 - 09:36 PM

hmm..

First of all, I feel you when it comes to Crum's dictionary. I recommend Adeeb Makar's Coptic-English Dictionary. It's not as comprehensive but it is waaaay easier to navigate through and understand.

I'll have to look into it later. But from off the top of my head, I can tell you that `cqai means "to write." Also, met is a prefix to a feminine word for forming adjectives into nouns. Therefore, that would make the act of writing "'cqai into a noun that is no longer an adjective.

As far as gravy goes, if it is anything like nigravy e;ouab (which means something like "the holy scripture" or "the holy writings"). In that case, gravy probably means "writing" again, and not alphabet.

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1712
Location: Saint George COC

Epideacon

posted on Jun 22, 2008 - 11:52 PM

Coptic is a direct descendant of the ancient Egyptian language. Ancient Egyptian most likely didn't have a word for alphabet since they used hieroglyphics which are similar to Chinese Characters and don't have an alphabet. However, since Coptic is written using the Greek alphabet, I imagine the word used for "alphabet" is just "alphabeta". If they didn't adopt the Greek alphabet to write Coptic, we would still be using hieroglyphics and hieratic and demotic and it would have probably developed into our own characters like what happened with Chinese.

Joined: Apr 26, 2006 | Posts: 95

mikehenry

posted on Jun 23, 2008 - 08:05 PM

Epideacon, good point. You're most likely right that it would just be the Greek.

George, I looked it up in Adeeb Makar's after I realized it was the word `cqai and it had a bunch of other related words, two of which were met`cqai (f n. for "writing") and ieb`cqai (m n. for "calligraphy"/"art of writing"), but neither really mean "alphabet." Oh well lol. I think I'll just go with alvabyto.

I don't know how met`cqai would make sense as a noun taking into account what you said, but I think you're right about met.

By the way, wouldn't the "act of writing" be jin`cqai? That's what Makar's says...

Thanks both of you guys,
Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 82
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

Remnkemi

posted on Jun 24, 2008 - 02:29 AM

Interesting topic.

Etymologically, the word alphabet in English is derived from the names of the first two letters in Greek" alpha and beta. So alphabet comes from the Greek. Fr. Kyrillos Makar (formely Adeeb Makar) follows the same etymology. So in Coptic, the word alphabet is a combined word from the names of the first two heiroglyphic letters aqwm and bet. So the Coptic word for alphabet is Piaqwmbet. You can also use pian`cqai or simply borrowing the Greek Pialvabet

By the way, aqwm means eagle in Coptic. The heiroglyphic letter for "a" is the picture of an eagle. bet is the heiroglypic word meaning table and the letter looks like a table. So it makes sense.

George

Joined: Apr 07, 2003 | Posts: 669
Location: Boston, MA USA

mikehenry

posted on Jun 24, 2008 - 04:11 PM

That's interesting... so piaqwmvat would be a word that Fr. Kyrillos synthesized himself?

Just wondering, how many letters or heiroglyphs were in the ancient language?

Thanks a lot.

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 82
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

Epideacon

posted on Jun 24, 2008 - 06:28 PM

Hieroglyphics had about 30 something symbols that just represented the sounds of the language. But they were never intended to be an "alphabet", they were merely there in order to clarify how a word should be pronounced. The remaining symbols were ideographic symbols (much like Chinese characters) that represented either a word or a syllable or a consonant cluster. I believe there were around 500 + glyphs in use by the time hieroglyphics died out.

Joined: Apr 26, 2006 | Posts: 95

atthoowi

posted on Jun 24, 2008 - 06:47 PM

rasi nwten pislol tyrf `nrem`n,ymi

]ouws etamwten eumeui ete vai pe pialvabytarion. ouon hanmys `mmeui e;be paicaji vai ca`pswi. anok de ]ouws ecaji ebol qen hanqotqet `mmon qen pahyt.  `c`cqyout hi pijwm `n ouahemcaji eta picaqo hani ;ekla `cqytf je alvabyton pe paicaji.  `n;of af,w `nnicaji etsop qen ni`cqai `njij `napac qen pefjwm.  `mpef;amio `n`hli `ncaji. eswp rw af;amiof ]meui je hw] pe `ntenareh erof je anon ten`cqai `ntenacpi qen niswlh `noueinin hi rem`n,ymi ete nai ne ni mapouai `nswlh etencwounou.  `mpan`cqai qen niswlh `nierogluvoc ouoh e;be vai ]meui je `cse an `nareh `epicaji je piaqwmbet qen rwn.  icje ouon oucaji efsop qen nicqai `njij `cse `ntenareh erwou. ]]ma] ouoh ]fi nem `p;amio `nnicaji `mberi qen nicaji `nte ,ymi cabol `mpaicaji je niswlh etenjotou nai ne je alva byta.  pikecaji e]ouws etahof eratf mpeten`m;o pe vai je niswlh napi`cqai. ]menre picaji je pian`cqai alla ouon ouhojhej `nqytf ete ,ai te je tefhancaji je an `mpauhotpc `ecaji an. sauhotpc eniypi `mmauatou.  e;be vai `mpare paicaji swpi efcoutwn.

`pcepi `nnai nicaji etcoutwn ne nai je pialvabyton ie niswlh`n`cqai ie napi`cqai.  cecoutwn oute nicen] `nte ]jincaji `n]acpi `nrem`n,ymi ouoh eu[nyout qen `pjinteouonjotou ebol qen rwf.

amoi je piouai piouai `mmon [icbw `eniswlh `n`cqai e;retenosou ouoh `ntetenjotou ouoh qen `pqae `ntetenerhytc `ncaji `n]acpi `nrem`n,ymi ete `vlac `nte nenio] pe.

oujai qen `p[oic

Joined: Nov 08, 2002 | Posts: 363

mikehenry

posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 04:58 PM

If it's not too much trouble, could someone translate that? lol

Thanks,
Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 82
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA