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Loosing Faith

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Paracleton

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 06:07 AM

Hello Everyone,

My friend is loosing her faith in the coptic church. She dislikes the unfairness in the way ladies are treated in church. Men can be married and deacons while girls need to be unmarried to become deaconesses' issue. She has a problem with the "weaker vessel" issue. It has come to the point where she can't confess and I am terribly worried for her. She has a general issue with Egyptians (bad experiences in egypt) and I don't think she can separate the culture from the religion. I don't know what to do. She has talked to several Priests and they haven't helped much. PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!

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mikokiko

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 06:56 AM

Well first off we should make sure that we don't fall into the fallacy of confusing equality with homogeneity. That is, some people believe because the sexes are equal, therefore they are essentially the same in roles and identity, which of course is false. The initial reason that we sought to declare them to be equal, is because we noticed a distinction between the male and the female. Let's say that X represents males, and Y represents females. We are saying that X and Y are equal, not X and X are equal, or Y and Y are equal. We first notice the need to call two distinct identities as equal. As such both are equal in dignity and in worth (that Christ has given us). This equality is preserved when womanhood is truly brought out, and manhood is truly brought out. In fact, to enforce the identity of the opposite sex on the other is to enforce a sort of sexism. So let's not use meaningless statements like: "If men, can do it why can't I?" Or "If women can do that why can't I?" This is disrespecting the individual identity God gave you. But we have to be careful with something.

We have to be careful to acknowledge that this distinction in identities does not arise from our spirits, but our bodies. The rest of the animal kingdom shares this characteristic. The female is physically different from the male. This is also found in humans, and this is where the behavioral distinctions and expectations arise in keeping our identities in accordance with God's will. Simply because the woman, who has estrogen, and far lower amounts of testosterone than the man, generally has a physically weaker body than the man is no reason to blame the Church. Both men and women have their physical complimentary advantages and disadvantages that belong to their identities.

As for deaconesses not being allowed to marry, I find this justification that the holiness of virginity and purity coming from a woman shines more brightly than a man, because of the natural "promiscuity" that can be found in woman so to speak is overcome. It's a fact that women are far more promiscuous than men. I think this is why woman when they are virgins are held up so much higher in regard than men for overcoming this barrier so too speak. That is nothing but a speculation however. But I am appealing to my reason and applying it to what I feel intuitionally makes sense when I observe nature.

God Bless

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 10:28 AM

Tell your friend to curb her pride. St. Paul says women shouldn't even talk in church and they must have their heads covered. Men don't have the same requirement. That means there's a difference between men and women in church.

My guess is that she doesn't care what the Bible or anything else says, she's already made up her mind. She's finding an excuse to not like Christianity, or at least, Coptic Christianity.

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mikehenry

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 04:55 PM

Truth.Seeker,

I don't think that telling her to curb her pride would help her get rid of it. It would probably just anger her more and aggravate the situation. I agree with you that she might have already made up her mind about it and that it is most probably a pride problem primarily, but that just makes it all the more sensitive of a situation.

I don't have any advice to give other than that I think it might be good if she talks to another woman about it, like Tasoni or someone wise who might've had these thoughts before but managed to realize that both sexes are equal.

Just my two cents.

Mike


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lowlyman

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 07:20 PM

I agree with you completely Mike henry in finding truth.seeker answer unconstructive. I also like your suggestion that she talks to another lady in the church who managed to overcome these issues. the only thing that I can suggest is for her to look inwardly in order to find her mission in the Coptic Church. Instead of worrying about the roles of women and men in the Coptic Church, she really should be concerned with what Jesus would want from her.for instance, if she doesn't want to become a Deaconess, then she shouldn't be worried too much about being married.

with respect to her dislike of the treatment of women in the Coptic Church, just remind her of how unfairly Jesus was treated by his own creatures. Also remind her that bearing the burdens, so to speak, of your tradition or of your culture is a virtue. And in doing so, she would truly be glorifying God in her actions.

finally, you are a good friend. Good job helping out.

From mikehenry:Truth.Seeker,

I don't think that telling her to curb her pride would help her get rid of it. It would probably just anger her more and aggravate the situation. I agree with you that she might have already made up her mind about it and that it is most probably a pride problem primarily, but that just makes it all the more sensitive of a situation.

I don't have any advice to give other than that I think it might be good if she talks to another woman about it, like Tasoni or someone wise who might've had these thoughts before but managed to realize that both sexes are equal.

Just my two cents.

Mike

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Publican

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 08:00 PM

Truth Seeker...a very pastoral response. Confused

That is precisely the attitude that has alienated her from the church.


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Paracleton

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 08:07 PM

Everyone,

I like the idea of getting her to talk to a female in the church, like Tisoni. That could be very helpfull. I also think that pride is a player in all this as there are other elemts that lead to this as well. Calling her out on her pride will definitely not help the situation.

Mikokiko - you wrote ""If men, can do it why can't I?" Or "If women can do that why can't I?" This is disrespecting the individual identity God gave you. But we have to be careful with something. "

How does this disrespect the identities that God gave us?

She has an issue with what St. Paul said about females. How can I talk to her about that? What would be a good argument to that?

Thanks,
Paracleton

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AMoussa01

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posted on Jun 25, 2008 - 09:27 PM

I think what Miko was trying to say was that the role of men and the role of women are seperate and should not be mixed. Meaning that the men were meant to be as deacons and the women to be as deaconesses (which is different from today's deaconess). Anyway, these are identities that God gave us, along with different but equal roles.

GB
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mikokiko

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posted on Jun 26, 2008 - 12:51 AM

Let's not judge her circumstances. Please, if we wish her to return to the Church the only anecdote is Love, and we know this from our Lord and God Jesus Christ. If we weren't won over to Him by Love what were we won over by? So let His love abide in us.

Sometimes the worse thing to do when someone is really proud, is to tell them that they are proud, because then we only double her pride. I think the best approach is to first emphasize her individual distinctness from men in being a woman. Let her first (as long as she is looking outwardly, she will stay away from self-absorbance) be proud in womanhood, and by doing this you can direct this pride to a pride in Christ, a faith and confidence in Him.

When she realizes that God gave her own special identity, then she will in turn come to the realization that her equality with men is not that becomes just like them (as if they were better than her), but that she become the very thing that Christ equally values in her as He does with male manhood: her womanhood.

Let's be sure of one thing: St. Paul ignored the belief trends of his time. Around his time in the Roman Empire, the status of women was considered to be lower than that of slaves. Equality was a laughable manner to them. It was Socrates, the great famous Western philosopher who himself said: "Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior." It was such a prevalent belief in the Zeitgeist of the empire that for St. Paul to make a statement like: "The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." (1 Corinthians 7:4) he must have been completely aware of what he was saying and how unpopular it would have been among the general population, he couldn't have been speaking from his own prejudice on this, or anything that we might look at as sexist today, he was fully conscious of what he wrote, because the Lord Himself inspired it. So let's not talk nonsense about St. Paul thinking women to be inferior to men, he thought no such thing, he believed in their distinction. The entire Christian faith was built up on ideas and morals that were so new in that day, that his teachings on the sexes had to be extremely consciously made (and inspired by the Lord Himself), for they ran up against a torrent of opposing popular beliefs. Let's be certain of one thing, he wasn't giving his own commands, from his own "unaware" prejudices.

Let her first know that above all St. Paul does indeed believe in the equality of the sexes: "...there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) That's not to say that St. Paul was blurring the identities of the sexes, for context will judge: he heavily emphasized on the importance of the preservation of male and female identity elsewhere in his epistles, but that they are all one and of equal worth to the God of the Universe Himself.

St. Paul teaches that that equality is not looked at as two separate entities being equal, but they being One in Christ. That is, the identities of manhood and womanhood are equal because one cannot do without the other. In fact they couldn't be distinct if their difference did not shine where the other's identity was dark. And so St. Paul says: "...neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God." (1 Corinthians 11:11-12)

Many of the people who helped preach alongside St. Paul were women like St. Phoebe, St. Lunia (who worked among the Apostles), St. Chloe who owned the house that was used as an early Church, Nympha, Lydia, St. Priscilla (and her husband Aquilla, who served the Church as a couple), Euodia and Syntyche, were called his co-workers, and Apphia.

Secondly, the entire fabric of Christianity was built on shocking beliefs. It is clearly evident from the ministry of our Lord on earth that He valued women immensely (as much as He did men). So much, that they were more frequently attended to than men (because they were more willing to hear). Let's first take a look at the historical background of first-century Palestine and put our Lord Jesus Christ at the forefront and compare the two.

In first-century Palestine women were not permitted to speak or be heard in public. It was a shame even for a husband to speak to his wife even in the marketplace, forget about men speaking to women. Their testimonies were not valid in court. And we see how greatly shocking it was for the disciples to see the Lord Jesus Himself speaking with the Samaritan Woman (who was let alone a Samaritan!) when St. John said "... they marveled that He talked with a woman..." (John 4:27) His entire ministry was to dedicated especially to women. The pharisees were disgusted when they saw the weeping woman wash Jesus feet and anointed it. Or when He did not rebuke the adulteress but gave her a feeling of worth and power (as He did with the Samaritan and many other women).

But the greatest honour Christ gave to women was that they were the prime witnesses of the greatest fact of history, and the one miraculous act to which the rest of the faith clings on: His Resurrection from the Dead. Their testimony was not allowed even in court, but they were the ones who testified to the disciples that the tomb was empty and that He had risen. The Prime Preacher of the Resurrection was St. Mary Magdalene.

And last, but most definitely not least, we have the honour bestowed on the Virgin St. Mary, the greatest and holiest of the entire creation. There was such a sharp contrast between the Roman Empire and the religion of Islam in whose scriptures state that Hell consists 99% of women. Clearly a teaching where the holiest of the creation was a woman would not sit well with them, to say the least.

So too say that the Bible teaches that women are inferior to men is an incredibly ignorant statement to make. However we must also (and not pretend like they didn't exist) deal with the verses that will likely be thought of as sexist by modern readers. For example: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels." (1 Corinthians 11:3-9)
First off let's get this out of the way: It is shameful for a man to have his hair covered, and it is shameful for a woman to have her hair uncovered. That is equality in distinction. That is NOT sexism. It is as much a shame for a man to cover his hair in Church as it is for a woman to uncover it.

Now as regards the man being the head of the woman as God is the head of Christ, the meaning of head here is ambiguous, but St. Paul I think clarifies it elsewhere when he says: "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord." (Colossians 3:18) That is just as Christ submitted Himself to the Father, so too is the woman in submission to the husband, but that does nothing to say that one is inferior to the other. Christ is declared to be subject to the Father, but in no way is He inferior as St. Paul says it in his epistle to the Philippians: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:5-8)

Therefore Christ is equal but subject to the Father. He is equal in role and state, as both are equally Divine in their One Essence (Just as man and woman are ONE in Christ), but subject to the commands of God the Father. Likewise in the marital bond both the husband and the wife is that of sacrifice and submission. Sacrifice because the husband should love the wife just as Christ loved the Church and give Himself up for her (unlike where in Islam wife-beating is lawful and even commanded). So too should the man be understanding and give his thoughts to the woman, and listen to her, and the woman also be subject to the thoughts of the man.

Again it is a complimentary natural relationship where the man sacrifices and the woman submits. And to be sure, when God created woman He made her from the rib of Adam. From His side, not from His head, so that she would be superior to him, or from His feet, so that she would be inferior to him, but a partner and equal. As Christ is the very brightness of the Father, so too are woman the brightness of the man. So that one represents the other in value and worth. Christ is the Perfect Image of His Father, just like Him. And so too the woman, coming from the man, is just like him, and equal to him in stature.

But surely, even the Church Fathers wrote of women in respect and defeated the mygonystic attitudes of their counterparts (the pagans). Like the early Church Father St. Clement wrote saying: The wise woman, then, will first choose to persuade her husband to be her associate in what is conducive to happiness. And should that be found impracticable, let her by herself earnestly aim at virtue, gaining her husband’s consent in everything, so as never to do anything against his will, with exception of what is reckoned as contributing to virtue and salvation...For self-control is common to all human beings who have made choice of it. And we admit that the same nature exists in every race, and the same virtue. As far as respects human nature, the woman does not possess one nature, and the man exhibit another, but the same: so also with virtue.

Similar to what St. Peter saying that the woman would also win over the man by her faith.

Moreover we have many well known prophetesses and saints in the Church like Ester, Judith, Ruth, and an innumerable number of Saints like St. Verena, St. Demiana, St. Mary of Egypt, and countless others...

So in conclusion she has no real reason to think that she is not as important in our Church as any man is.

I hope I have not blabbered on for too long,

God Bless

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Jun 26, 2008 - 10:15 AM

I'll leave the pastoral stuff to you, Publican. Tell her whatever you want. Her disagreement stems out of pride and a complete disregard for the Bible. Good luck.

P.S. Publican, your statement didn't make sense. This "attitude" wouldn't exist if she hadn't concluded what she concluded. She can't decide something based on an "attitude" that didn't exist until she decided that something.

To all - if you bring up the Biblical verses, her next inquiry is whether the Bible is still applicable as is. I've seen similar situations happen all too often. It's astonishingly easier to bring someone into the faith than to retain someone who's questioning it from the top down (little questions here and there are a different story).

It may actually take her some time to admit this to herself, but her questioning has little to do with the Church, and much more to do with Christianity. Come on - she's upset because a deaconess can't get married? Let's face it - any woman who would be a deaconess, wouldn't care. So, she is questioning something completely random that doesn't even apply to her.

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Noosa_1978

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posted on Jun 26, 2008 - 06:56 PM

My friend is loosing her faith in the coptic church. She dislikes the unfairness in the way ladies are treated in church. Men can be married and deacons while girls need to be unmarried to become deaconesses' issue. She has a problem with the "weaker vessel" issue. It has come to the point where she can't confess and I am terribly worried for her. She has a general issue with Egyptians (bad experiences in egypt) and I don't think she can separate the culture from the religion. I don't know what to do. She has talked to several Priests and they haven't helped much. PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!


This is a way the devil traps people. He is using what ever possible weapon against your friend to set a trap for her and she is falling into it. Just remember something, someone does not have to be a deacon, nun, or a monk to enter heaven. God also looks at the heart and what one did in their life. He is also just as happy with people living a regular life, as long as they do good deed in life. In fact, The lord loves it when a person marries and produces children for him. How do you think the human race goes on? If everyone were to become a monk or nun, the human race would be extinct. There are many women who are not deaconesses, married, and doing good deeds in our church. There are other types of services and ways to contribute you know. I know cause I am also a woman and I am about to start a homeless outreach program and I have served other ways. Tell he that what ever you do, do not let the devil trap you into losing your faith.
I am not perfect and have been faught many times too. For example, I may have very strong faith but the devil finds other ways to fight me. He uses my self-esteem and anxiety against me. I sometimes suffer low self-esteem as a result of something that happened to me.
I am always looking foward to getting up every Sunday and going to the church. Also, when ever things start stressing me out and life is getting too over whelming, I go to the church when there is a meeting, just to listen and get peace inside. Sometimes I even escape from this world to the monostary to have a few days of praying and meditation to myself. In fact, whenever I go to the church, I feel as if I am going home.

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Noosa_1978

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posted on Jun 28, 2008 - 02:28 AM

I am also going to be praying for your friend. I have also had the same problem with my mother. I am actually an American who got baptized in the Coptic church as an adult. My mother was raised Catholic but when she was in high school and into college, she started hanging with a woman's activist group and became an ardent feminist. She started think that "woman should be equal to men" "Abortion is ok and a woman has the right to chose when it comes to her body." She also started dressing very liberal as well. Then oneday she became pregnant with me. When she found out, she was not married, just graduated college and planning to go to med school. Her friend loaned her the money, so that she can get an abortion. The night before my mom was scheduled to have her abortion, my grandmother found out she was pregnant. That is what saved my live. She told my mom that if she had the abortion the next day, she would never be allowed back into her house. That it is the murder of an innocent child. She also had to marry my dad, who felt respondsible for getting mom pregnant. My dad then died when I was 3 and mom had to work 3 jobs to raise me. All her dreams were gone. As a result, she stoped believing in God. I have tried to talk to her about God and the church and she keeps telling me "to stop believe in that nonsense." Everytime she know I am going to church, she gets upset and tells me that I am disrespecting her. So I go without telling her. She does not even know that I was baptized. For now, I have not told her because I do not want problems with her. But someday, God willing, if chooses to change, I will tell her. I pray that someday she does change. Just be patient and keep praying, she will hopefully change.

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