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posted on Jul 05, 2008 - 07:08 PM
What is the Church's position on the death penalty? Personally, I think it is wrong because it is still murder and there is no justification for murder. Regardless of what someone did, killing is not the answer. The best thing to do is put them away in prison for life.
posted on Jul 08, 2008 - 06:12 PM
Capital Punishment is not murder. Murder is the taking away of life because of hatred. That's why St. John the theologian, the beloved disciple of the Lord Jesus said: "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)
This means that murder is hatred itself. Not anything else. Not every death caused by another human being is a murder. Yes it is killing, but it is not murder. If I unintentionally kill someone, did I want him dead (because of my hatred of him), and therefore murder him? Of course not. Neither is killing in war murder. I don't need to be killing because of hatred of the other side. I do it to serve and defend my country, whom I love. Therefore murder does not equal killing.
Remember, Christ made it clear that the sin begins in the mind. If we hate someone, we have already murdered him. If I assign capital punishment to someone, I should never do it out of hatred, but in fact, out of love. Out of love for all the people that would be his potential victims, and for justice of the people who he did murder and affect in his life, and even for himself. So that he might learn to come to repentance by receiving a consequence to his actions.
God Bless
posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 05:17 AM
i agree with Noosa that no matter what the person did it is not our decision what should happen to him but God's and therefore putting the person in prison would be a much better choice where the person can reflect on his actions and have a chance to repent.
Miko said that "If I assign capital punishment to someone, I should never do it out of hatred, but in fact, out of love. Out of love for all the people that would be his potential victims[...] So that he might learn to come to repentance by receiving a consequence to his actions."
Therefore, by isolating the criminal for the rest of his life, you give him punishment for his actions but more importantly you give him time to reflect and repent. however, if you kill the criminal, you have neither punished him because he is dead and he can't reflect on his punishment (knowing he is going to die is still punishment but one with a hardened heart would careless) and have maybe given him a bit of time to repent in prison but not always enough.
as for the person performing the death penalty, i do not think that he sins in any way because he is just fulfilling his duty as miko said. also the judge who sentences the death penalty, i don't think that he either sins in any way because after all he also must abide the rules of his country, even if he does not agree with it. therefore as miko also said "if one hates another he has already murdered him". So, if one murders another and the family of the one who was murdered is sitting in court full of hatred towards the murderer, then they are the ones sinning.
Pray for me
posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 06:24 AM
i agree with Noosa that no matter what the person did it is not our decision what should happen to him but God's and therefore putting the person in prison would be a much better choice where the person can reflect on his actions and have a chance to repent.
Well, in fact, everything is ultimately God's decision. We could use the same argument about throwing him in prison. It's not our decision to put him into prison, that's God's decision (whether through someone else's choice, whether that person be right or wrong in doing that, but then again we can say the same about killing). Let God put him in prison. But the matter of the fact is, we have free will, and we have the volitional capacity to take away someone's life. God gave us freedom of choice. That is why St. Paul says all things are lawful for me, but all things are not beneficial. So you must remember one thing, there is not one single physical action, that at all costs can be called sinful, or one single physical action that can be called good.
Sex can be an act of fidelity, and in fact, it can be an act of the exact opposite. Like you said, the judge who assigns the punishment is not murdering anyone, and the person who fulfills the duty is not either. Therefore killing, in and of itself, is not sinful. Even though the man taking out his duty is killing someone. Also in war, we are not murderers for serving a defending our country and its people, we are patriots and lovers of our brethren, and bringers of justice.
Therefore, by isolating the criminal for the rest of his life, you give him punishment for his actions but more importantly you give him time to reflect and repent. however, if you kill the criminal, you have neither punished him because he is dead and he can't reflect on his punishment (knowing he is going to die is still punishment but one with a hardened heart would careless) and have maybe given him a bit of time to repent in prison but not always enough.
I think that is a plausible reason. To make it the aim to rehabilitate the person, and make him a better individual, re-instating him into society. But what if this fails? If this fails, and the man has been given his choice, then I think it is reasonable to assign him capital punishment, if his crime is deserving.
God Bless
posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 04:54 PM
everything is ultimately God's decision
True, but we must understand that God will not come down from heaven and punish a criminal himself, but rather he will use people to carry out his will. I am sure that you and I both agree that God will never want someone punished by a death penalty, no matter what the person did because God "calls all to salvation". So, I am sure that God will want a criminal to be put in prison rather than a death penalty, because God is willing to accept anyone if he repents. God said "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7)
Pray for me
posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 07:25 PM
I need to correct some faulty logic here (I disagree with both Miko and Youngest, but more with Youngest since he wrote two apparent contradictions right after one another).
The Youngest agrees that "everything is ultimately God's decision." Well, then, whatever humans do will be God's decision, if God will always use humans to do His will.
For example: if we have the death penalty, we'll say God willed it. If we don't have the death penalty, we'll say God didn't will it. The apparent contradiction comes in with you saying everything is ultimately God's will, but that God doesn't want the death penalty. Well, then, how did all those executions in Alabama take place?
I disagree with the original premise - everything is NOT ultimately God's decision. That's unless you're taking God's "passive" actions as part of His decisions. I.e. "if God didn't want me to drive my car into the tree, He would have stopped me, He didn't stop me, therefore He willed it."
Really? "If God didn't want me to sin He would have stopped me, He didn't stop me, I sinned, therefore God willed that I sin." In the Liturgy we say, "For you are God the merciful who does NOT will the DEATH of the sinner, but that he returns and lives." Obviously not everyone returns and lives. Obviously God does not always implement what He wants to happen.
Notice that this is different from God not implementing what He wants to make happen Himself (He's omnipotent, He can do anything He wants to do). This is not to be taken to mean He does everything He wants to happen.
At this point, everyone is throwing his/her own induction into the mix about what God would want. The Youngest bases his conclusion on God wanting sinners to repent. Miko will respond that if imminent death isn't a spring-board for repentance, nothing else will work.
I say, let's defer to the Coptic Orthodox Church on this - its teaching is straight up - it does not object to captial punishment.
posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 03:30 AM
From Truth.Seeker:
I say, let's defer to the Coptic Orthodox Church on this - its teaching is straight up - it does not object to captial punishment.
In order to lend credence to Truth.Seekers statements, here is a link to the responses of H.G. Bishop Youssef on this subject.
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=61
Truth.Seeker, I was wondering if you could site other sources which support your imperious claim that the Coptic Church is ok with capital punishment.
Thanks.
posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 04:12 AM
i read the link provided by copt07, but I am still not convinced that capital punishment is right. one thing i noticed about all the examples listed is that they were all done strictly by God and it was not humans' decision.
Seeing that they were all from the old testament, consider what Jesus said in Matthew 5:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’[f] 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren[i] only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 10:52 AM
Imperious claim? It's as clear as the Coptic Church's stance on abortion. Would you ask someone to cite sources for why he says the Coptic Church is against abortion? To appease you -
- H.G. Bishop David stated it in a lecture at a retreat. I doubt he doesn't know what he's talking about. If you want something written down:
- It's also in the booklet "Moral Issues Facing the Coptic Orthodox Church" by Fr. Markos Hanna.
The Youngest, you must distinguish what individuals can do and what the state can do. You cannot just decide that someone deserves capital punishment yourself and go execute him (an eye for an eye). The state has that responsibility.
If killing is ALWAYS bad, we run into some interesting scenarios:
1) What if I kill someone about to kill 10 people?
More to the point -
2) What if having capital punishment is going to deter hundreds of people from killing?
The state gets to crunch the numbers and get to an answer. Why does the state have so much power?
Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
_____
As for examples of people getting executed in the New Testament - read the story of Ananias and Sopphira in Acts. Both of their punishment was immediate death because they lied to St. Peter on what percentage of the money they sold their property for was being donated to the Church. The next verse in the story is that fear went throughout the Christian community - "hey, this Christ thing is serious."
So, even in Acts, the idea of deterrence is clear.
_____
I don't make this stuff up as I go along.
posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 10:44 PM
Truth.Seeker, you know as well as I do, that when I affirmed that everything is ultimately God's will, I was not denying human volitional power. Of course I wasn't. The point I was making that no human can really (even though he has free will) interfere with God's final and ultimate plan. Are you saying I can change what God ultimately intends history to result in? Of course not. Joseph's brothers certainly went against God's will by selling him as a slave, and lying to their father, but at the same time it was God's will to give them that power, and it was God's will to allow the results (which He knew of, even before they were born, to even have free will in the first place). God uses the evil of people, even to accomplish His ultimate goal. On a smaller scale, we see what happened to Joseph the righteous, who rose to glory, and brought his entire family, through whose seed the nation of Israel would be brought up, and it was God's will that an exodus from Egypt, by guiding them to the promised land, flowing with milk and honey. All this through whose actions? The sinful actions of Joseph's brothers. Does God want us to sell our family into slavery? Of course not. But God before hand, when creating the universe, foreseeing the choices we would make (of ourselves and one another), produced a universe that would turn on a history that He ultimately drives, by responding to the wills of humans. And what if Joseph's brothers not sinned? Would history (would even the Christ Himself, the Eternal Logos been born) have turned the way it did? Well, we are asking nonsensical questions. God intended it to be this way, because at the same time He (not temporally prior) saw how we would react with our wills. And we are touching upon ground that we (might know of one day), but by no means, can we know the Mind of God, the Logos of the Father, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Notice that this is different from God not implementing what He wants to make happen Himself (He's omnipotent, He can do anything He wants to do). This is not to be taken to mean He does everything He wants to happen.
Well. How can history and everything ultimately happen how God doesn't want it to happen? You mean God intended and wanted it a certain way, but we screwed up His plan? Nonsense. In one sense He wants it, and in another sense He didn't. Its sort of like when I was younger and my mom told me to wash the dishes on Mondays and Wednesdays, or else no super Nintendo for a week. Well, she knew the results (granted that she knows everything like God), that I was probably not going to wash the dishes. And yet, she still let it happen. She wanted it to come from me. So in one way, she wanted me to clean the dishes, and in another way, she wanted me to do it of my own will, not by force. Similar with God, He WANTS us to Good.
But He also WANTS us to have free will (and foreseeing how our wills would cause things [as the soul, the rational will, stands out of nature itself, and is therefore in a sense atemporal, as our souls do not end at the grave]), and therefore also ultimately wants the results that will ensue with our free will. If He ultimately did NOT want these results, then He would ultimately NOT want us to have free will.
God Bless
posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 11:46 PM
Simple answer:
Does God want all the people who went/are going to hell go to hell? If your answer is "no," then obviously not everything that God wants happens. If you want - God does not want to interfere in our free will, therefore, the exercise of our free will (which may lead us to sin) is part of "God's plan." This is not what you were saying before your last post.
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 04:54 AM
From Truth.Seeker:
If killing is ALWAYS bad, we run into some interesting scenarios:
1) What if I kill someone about to kill 10 people?
More to the point -
2) What if having capital punishment is going to deter hundreds of people from killing?
The state gets to crunch the numbers and get to an answer. Why does the state have so much power?.
I will play devil's advocate here. I do not think you can equate killing someone about to kill 10 people and capital punishment itself. Why? Because you are saving people by killing the person about to kill them, and if I am not mistaken, their lives are worth more than his. In that sense, it is justifiable to kill a man. But when you have a choice between killing a man or not killing for the sake of a law, than you would be passing judgement on that soul; judgement that only God should be giving. After all, you have hardly given any time for the man to repent and realize his mistakes and now you are sending him to his judgement. I forgot the verse but, in the Bible, someone asked Christ how many times shall he should forgive his brother and Christ said 7 times 7. So, instead of sending somebody prematurely to their judgement, as Christians we should be giving someone every oppurtunity in this world for them to confess and come back to Christ. Even Christ himself went and ate with tax collectors and sat with them.
Second is that the we need to realize that not everything the government does, is alright. As many of you know, gay marriage is now allowed in California and we are against that. Just because the state allows captial punishment does not automatically make it ok. I hope i made myself clear and i am waiting for a good answer, hopefully without any condescending remarks. Thanks
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 07:06 AM
Does God want all the people who went/are going to hell go to hell? If your answer is "no," then obviously not everything that God wants happens. If you want - God does not want to interfere in our free will, therefore, the exercise of our free will (which may lead us to sin) is part of "God's plan." This is not what you were saying before your last post.
Well, isn't that just it? My whole post was about God both WANTING and NOT wanting things to happen. In one sense, OF COURSE God wants those who sin to go to hell. In another sense, He wishes that no one sins. But because He wants us to have free wills, He also wants the results. Remember that. In one sense He does want it, and in another He does not. After all, if God did not want sinners to suffer Hellfire, then there would be no Hell in the first place.
God Bless
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 07:53 AM
" In one sense, OF COURSE God wants those who sin to go to hell. In another sense, He wishes that no one sins. But because He wants us to have free wills, He also wants the results. Remember that. In one sense He does want it, and in another He does not. After all, if God did not want sinners to suffer Hellfire, then there would be no Hell in the first place. "
Wow...I think the fathers are rolling in their grave =(
Let it be clear that God wants no one to go to hell, even sinners. However out of his own self-giving love the Trinity gave man the divine gift of freedom so that man could enter into the loving communion of the Trinity, it is this self-limiting gift that prevents the Trinity from using his own power to save man by coercion.
Remember even in hell, God's love pervades. The fires of hell are the divine love rejected.
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 07:55 AM
" In one sense, OF COURSE God wants those who sin to go to hell. In another sense, He wishes that no one sins. But because He wants us to have free wills, He also wants the results. Remember that. In one sense He does want it, and in another He does not. After all, if God did not want sinners to suffer Hellfire, then there would be no Hell in the first place. "
Wow...I think the fathers are rolling in their grave. Let us not speak recklessly about the divine mysteries! =(
Let it be clear that God wants no one to go to hell, even sinners. However out of his own self-giving love the Trinity gives man the divine gift of freedom so that man could enter into the loving communion of the Trinity, it is this self-limiting gift that prevents the Trinity from using his own power to save man by coercion.
Remember even in hell, God's love pervades. The fires of hell are the divine love rejected (in freedom).
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 09:54 AM
Tony,
You're right that the state is not always right (it's wrong if it contradicts Christianity). Capital punishment doesn't contradict Christianity (which says that individuals shouldn't kill - says nothing about the state). Just like a soldier killing in war isn't breaking the commandment. Christianity does not promote or reject capital punishment, therefore, the state can have it. Just like Christianity does not promote or reject levels of taxes, therefore states can have taxes.
As for sending criminals to their death "prematurely," - in the U.S., it takes something like 15 years for an execution to occur (many appeals are allowed). Nothing premature about that.
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 05:06 PM
From Truth.Seeker:Tony,
You're right that the state is not always right (it's wrong if it contradicts Christianity). Capital punishment doesn't contradict Christianity (which says that individuals shouldn't kill - says nothing about the state).
Hmmm, you seem to be dancing around the situation here. So its not ok for someone to kill but its ok when a group of people decide its ok? That does not make any sense to me.
From Truth.Seeker:Just like a soldier killing in war isn't breaking the commandment. Christianity does not promote or reject capital punishment, therefore, the state can have it.
I am still waiting for an answer or evidence that you can provide me that Christianity does not reject this. I won't just accept anything you tell me without some evidence.
From Truth.Seeker:Just like Christianity does not promote or reject levels of taxes, therefore states can have taxes.
I am sorry but i have to disagree with you there. Didn't Christ say give to cesar what is cesar's? So, obviously we are supposed to abide by the laws but not to the extent that they force us to disobey the Word of God.
From Truth.Seeker:As for sending criminals to their death "prematurely," - in the U.S., it takes something like 15 years for an execution to occur (many appeals are allowed). Nothing premature about that.
Again, i think this is more dancing around the situation. I do not want into the technicalities of the situation. Bottom line is that, we as Christians, should be giving our brothers and sisters every chance to come and repent for their sins. Here is another question: Would Christ kill a prisoner for their sins, or would He give them time (in this case, time in solitary) so that they can come back to Him?
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 06:41 PM
I'm not dancing around anything. Christianity is simple - if it says you can't do something, you can't do it. If it's silent on an issue, then you can do it. Obviously not every situation will be covered, but it's not silent on principles. I.e. it doesn't tell you to not go to buffets, but it tells you to not be gluttonous.
Christianity does not talk about capital punishment. It talks about murder, but not about capital punishment. I do not need to provide you with evidence that Christianity "doesn't reject" something. YOU need to provide me with evidence that it "rejects something."
That's like saying, "Christianity says it's a sin to climb the Empire State Building, show me a verse that says climbing the Empire State Building is not a sin." That's ridiculous.
"So, obviously we are supposed to abide by the laws but not to the extent that they force us to disobey the Word of God."
Didn't I start out by saying that? Obey the state as long as it doesn't conflict with Christianity. That's why abortion is wrong - it conflicts with Christianity. So, Mikokiko, OBEY the state until you find me something that says capital punishment is wrong. Enjoy.
Note I'm choosing my words carefully - the Coptic Church does not reject capital punishment. Why? Because the Bible doesn't reject it. But the Bible also doesn't promote it, so it's not like Bishops are running around saying, "execute 'em!"
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 07:38 PM
if it says you can't do something, you can't do it. If it's silent on an issue, then you can do it.
I'm not going to divert the topic, but before you go further, I must say, that is not a good way to go about hermeneutics. I think you and I both know, that simply because the Bible does not SPELL out that abortion is bad that we can do it. There is enough context from the Bible and the skopos of the Church to help us judge what Christ wants from us on ALL matters of life. Silence says NOTHING. You cannot conclude anything from silence. You can, if you are skilled enough, conclude EVERYTHING from context.
So, Mikokiko, OBEY the state until you find me something that says capital punishment is wrong. Enjoy.
?? I was always with you on Capital Punishment, that was AMoussa01. I agree with it, and I think it should be implemented more harshly than it already is. Too bad up here in Canada it got abolished in the 60's.
God Bless
posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 07:43 PM
Truth.Seeker,
earlier, you mentioned that individuals should not kill correct? So why would it be acceptable if a group of people decided that now it is ok to kill? This train of logic makes no sense to me, explain yourself please. Are you telling me that right and wrong depends on an electoral vote?
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
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