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jshouk

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 01:16 AM

As I read this chapter, several verses makes me wonder for what reason people decide to get married. Here is the verse,
For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

My point is, many suggest us to develop and try to establish self control before getting married. However, what I understand St Paul say, is that if one does obtain this virtue, then it is better for him not to marry. Now, I'm sure many do get married even if they do have self control, so would it really have been better not to get married...? Can it actually hurt us, or deprive us from better things??
Also, if one fights the lust of the flesh for a long time, and God finally grants him the gift of self-control, then wouldn't it be kinda stupid to get married? Why come back and open the possibility to lust once more???

Anyhoo, would be nice to hear your comments
John

Joined: Jan 29, 2006 | Posts: 30

AMoussa01

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 06:04 AM

Getting married is not stupid. It is a sacrament in our church. God created adam and eve for a reason which is to share a special unity in Him. In my opinion, it would not be a wise to get marriage so that you can exercise more self control. However, you need to realize that things were very different back then regarding things like marriage. It is not like today because wives were more obedient to their husbands and things were not as complex regarding issues like finding a mate.

GB
Tony

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 06:12 AM

I forgot to add that, monasticism is something that is ideal and for those who can handle it (most can not!) God's plan for his people was so that we can multiply and form a family, putting our children before ourselves. This in turn teaches us how to be self-less and instills other great qualities. Obviously, it would be better if someone married rather than live alone, which can in turn make you selfish, uncommitted, and so on. Last thing i want to mention is that sex between a man and his wife is not considered a sin. It is a gift from God and is not to be seen as something unclean.

GB
Tony

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jshouk

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 10:52 AM

Hey Tony,
I'm aware that marriage is a sacrament and not stupid and that sex in marriage is not a sin, but that was not the intent of my question...let me try to rephrase some things...

Basically, although sex in marriage is not considered sin, can't it open back the doors of lust that one might of had in his youth?
It is also advised to establish self control before getting married, and St. Paul does say if one does have self control then it is better not to marry. Thats where I'm a little confused...it feels a bit contradictory. What are the other biblical verses that supports marriage, I guess, that would give more insight.

Secondly, the reason for this question was not to think of monastiscm. In reality, I was thinking of the service in our church. Most servants before marriage seem to be everywhere, so involved. Then, marriage comes and commitment becomes harder. I'm not saying that they are less commited or involed, but it becomes much harder to find time to serve since there are much more responsabilities added to them...

Those were basically the point i had on my mind,
Hope i was a little clearer...
GB
John

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 06:35 PM

Jshouk,

"can't it open back the doors of lust that one might of had in his youth? "

Well, that is why one should learn to have self control before getting married. I also find it kind of a ridiculous thing to ask because the sex between a man and his wife is beyond the lusting of the flesh because of their love for one another in Christ. Again, you need to take into account that St. Paul was writing to a different type of audience, not like the people of today so different circumstances call for different answers. People back then were not as complex regarding marital issues and finding mates; so at that time, it might have been better to marry for the sake of self-control.

"Most servants before marriage seem to be everywhere, so involved. Then, marriage comes and commitment becomes harder. I'm not saying that they are less commited or involed, but it becomes much harder to find time to serve since there are much more responsabilities added to them."

Just because committment comes does not necessarily the service dies. You also have to realize that God gives us only what we can handle and marriage is a lot to handle. Marriage gives a person even more service, maybe not necessarilly helping the kids in sunday school or becoming a deacon, but it requires sacrifice, time, effort, and love. All of which are acceptable as service; so obviously when someone gets married they are not as available but that is ok because they have a committment. Some people can also handle more work load than others...

GB
Tony

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jshouk

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 10:05 PM

Thanks for your input again Tony,

In fact, I agree that sex between a man and a woman is beyond the lust of the flesh and that by establishing self control before marriage indeed strenghtens you from the lust of the flesh. However, again since one does eventually have some type of self control before marriage, then what is the point of St Paul's saying...?

From AMoussa01:
Again, you need to take into account that St. Paul was writing to a different type of audience, not like the people of today so different circumstances call for different answers. People back then were not as complex regarding marital issues and finding mates; so at that time, it might have been better to marry for the sake of self-control.


Even though it might be another audience, it doesn't mean the word is not valid no more. The bible is the living Word of God and by saying that it is not as valid to us as much (although you didnt say that explicitly, thats what understood) then your taking away the validity and the power of the Bible, no?

I'm not sure i'm expressing myself perfectly. Yanni, everything we do in our life is for the purpose of perfecting our relationship with Christ. What I understand from marriage, according to St. Paul, is that it keep you away from "burning with passion". However, if we do work on this self control before marriage and succeed, then marriage should help us in our relationship with Christ elsewhere. That is what im trying to see, what more does marriage give us.

From AMoussa01:
Just because committment comes does not necessarily the service dies.


I never said otherwise. I said that commitment becomes much harder, as you said, and that some find themselves less involded (some affected less than others, again as you said.) So, I don't think we disagreed anywhere there. My point from that comment, was that if one didnt get married, he would have more time to grow with Christ, more time for service and more time to learn from his service.

So, basically I'm trying to brainstorm with you guys the up's and down's of each to be able to see which one would be help more in our relationship with Christ. I did however like the fact that you pointed out how there is sacrifice, time, effort and love. But again, you would get the same if you lived a life of service.

Any more thoughts?
GB
John

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 10:33 PM

"Even though it might be another audience, it doesn't mean the word is not valid no more. The bible is the living Word of God and by saying that it is not as valid to us as much (although you didnt say that explicitly, thats what understood) then your taking away the validity and the power of the Bible, no? "

It would be foolish of me to take something and apply it in my life without understanding the circumstances surrounding the situation. I am not saying that St. Paul gave bad advice. Again, different circumstances call for different answers; that is not to say there is only one right answer. You mistakingly mixing doctrine when you say "the word is not valid anymore." Basically, you need to take things in context; not everything that St. Paul wrote was specifically addressed to us (people today)- This does not mean it is invalid!

"What I understand from marriage, according to St. Paul, is that it keep you away from "burning with passion". However, if we do work on this self control before marriage and succeed, then marriage should help us in our relationship with Christ elsewhere. That is what im trying to see, what more does marriage give us."

Again, you are forgetting that he was writing to people in a different time and place. People have changed since then; try to understand this. I have already stated that Christ wants us to form a family, a union with Him being the Head (just read genesis). I also mentioned that by having children, you will become less self-oriented and more of a self-less person looking out for the benefit of your kids and wife (just like what God does with us). There are many great qualities you learn from having marriage which, in a way, "shadow" God's "persona". These include, self-sacrifice, discipline, committment, love, and more.

"My point from that comment, was that if one didnt get married, he would have more time to grow with Christ, more time for service and more time to learn from his service."

I already mentioned earlier that God accepts the hardwork that is put into a marriage and accepts it as a service and duty. In turn, he or she can continue to grow in Christ without necessarilly being as invovled as they were before (because of their new committment) and that is acceptable. You can make an assumption that people who are married do not have as much oppurtunity to grow in Christ; again, it is important to realize the fact that not every case is the same..just like i mentioned above.

GB
Tony

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 10:35 PM

For some awkward reason, i am unable to edit my post. I have a correction to make...

The last sentence i wrote should say:

"You can NOT make an assumption that people who are married do not have as much oppurtunity to grow in Christ; again, it is important to realize the fact that not every case is the same..just like i mentioned above."

GB
Tony

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jshouk

posted on Jul 09, 2008 - 10:49 PM

ok...so when reading the verse do i simply ignore the verse??
I think the verse is totally applicable for us now and am not able to accept that argument :S sry hehe because i simply dont understand how I should view the verse...and eventhen, in that same chapter he says "for I wish all men were as myself" he says that for a reason, he's not simply saying that to the corinthians...but to us all...

and for the last point, i agree with you, but im simply trying to compare, since you also can develop these virtues through service...

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 12:54 AM

From jshouk:ok...so when reading the verse do i simply ignore the verse??.

Well, first of all you should not ignore the verse. Second is that you need to take things in context. Not everything applys to you but that doesnt mean you can not learn from it.

From jshouk:I think the verse is totally applicable for us now and am not able to accept that argument :S sry hehe because i simply dont understand how I should view the verse...and eventhen, in that same chapter he says "for I wish all men were as myself" he says that for a reason, he's not simply saying that to the corinthians...but to us all...

Well, i do not know what else to tell you. I will once again state that not all circumstances are the same and therefore should be dealt with differently. Even God himself dealt with the human race accordingly because of our developing maturity. Again I did not say that it is bad advice; all i said was that i would not advise it (atleast to the majority of people because we have evolved more).

From jshouk:and for the last point, i agree with you, but im simply trying to compare, since you also can develop these virtues through service...

I agree that you can achieve these virtues through other means of service, however, things become significantly different when you have the responsibility of a family. It is a much bigger responsibility and more extreme than planning activities for the church, teaching sunday school, or being a deacon.

GB
Tony

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jshouk

posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 01:23 AM

sorry, i guess i don't see in what way the context makes the difference in what your trying to show. I agree that not everything is applied for me and could still learn from it, but i don't understand your 'different context' idea. In what way have we evolved? Eventhough wives were more obediant to their husband, i don't see how that changes the context and the purpose for which St. Paul wrote that...maybe just clarify a little :S
but i kinda dont want to drift away from the initial idea of comparing the two...if anyone has more idea...plz share

GB
John

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 04:15 AM

I want you to keep in mind that I am not disagreeing with St. Paul. I am just trying to say that it is not a good idea to get married so that you can control your urges in todays world. It might be a slight benefit but it should not be the main reason you are getting married. In fact, im willing to bet that if someone was to marry (nowadays) for that reason, then he or she would have a divorce. The difference between then and now is huge. The people themselves were nowhere near as complex as the people of today and things were simpler for them. This is what i mean when i say "context."

GB
Tony

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jshouk

posted on Jul 10, 2008 - 10:41 AM

now that argument actually makes much more sense...thanks for clarifying
Any other thoughts?

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Noosa_1978

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 04:47 AM

Getting married is a very wonderful thing. However, one has to be smart before they choose a marriage partner because it is for life. I suggest that a couple who is planning to marry, should be engage for at least 2 years. This way they know what they are getting into before marriage and not make the mistake of going into it blindly. Also, people should wait till they are ready mature enough to handle being married. It is not fun and games you know.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 02:25 PM

I don't see what the issue is -

It's better to not get married than to get married unless you're going to commit sins because of not being married. There is no contradiction. It is BETTER to not get married, unless you will sin as a result.

If anyone thinks they will not sin as a result of not being matter, than the better thing for them to do is not get married. However, even if they do have self control and they get married, it's not "wrong," it's just less beneficial.

All this "circumstances" stuff is besides the point. St. Paul's words are applicable for everyone at all times (especially if he's not addressing it to a certain person - like St. Timothy).

The key is knowing that doing something "less beneficial" for you is not "wrong." Just like to be "perfect" one must sell everything and follow Him, if you don't do that you're not committing a sin, you're just not as benefitted as you otherwise would be.

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mikokiko

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 05:31 PM

Well, like Truth.Seeker said, both Matrimony and Celibacy, when both performed in perfection, are complete virtues. If Matrimony is not a sin, it is a virtue. And if it is a virtue, you can be a perfect person and be married. Having said that, there is a certain power to celibacy. Matrimony indeed is a blessed sacrament, because it is a reflection of both the Physical and Spiritual Unity of the believer with God Himself, that takes place in all the other sacraments like the Eucharist. In Matrimony, the two become one flesh, a force which can be stronger than just one person, in the journey of uniting with God. However, Celibacy is said to have a great power to it, and is in one sense of the word "better".

The prayer of one person is still a valid prayer to God, which God will hear just as much as that of a group of people. But there is a certain power to prayer when more than one person prays. "When two or three are gathered in My name I will be in there midst." Not that He will NOT be in your midst when you pray alone. But prayer with a family, with a Church, with the intercessions of the Saints, and with the Complete Body of Christ, constitutes a power much greater than individual prayer. Both are very valid, and there is no reason why an individual's prayer will not be heard more than an entire groups' prayer. But when both virtues reach their completion, the Group Prayer is of greater merit. Also, with Celibacy and Matrimony, when both reach their completion, Celibacy can be of greater merit. But neither is more holy than the other. Both were instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ, in their perfection only.

God Bless

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AMoussa01

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 07:21 PM

From Truth.Seeker:
It's better to not get married than to get married unless you're going to commit sins because of not being married. There is no contradiction. It is BETTER to not get married, unless you will sin as a result..

That is more of an opinion than a fact. Committing sins is inevitable (even sexual sins) so that rules out your reason of getting married.

From Truth.Seeker: If anyone thinks they will not sin as a result of not being matter, than the better thing for them to do is not get married. However, even if they do have self control and they get married, it's not "wrong," it's just less beneficial.

Again this is more of an opinion. God did not intend for all of us to become monks and live the monastic life. So for those of us who are not suited for that life, living it would not be beneficial at all; hense, it is a calling.

From Truth.Seeker:
All this "circumstances" stuff is besides the point. St. Paul's words are applicable for everyone at all times (especially if he's not addressing it to a certain person - like St. Timothy)..

I think there may be some confusion. Previously, i said that the only reason to get married should not solely be based on preventing a particular sin. That would ruin a marriage. Instead, it should be considered a "benefit" of getting rid of any sexual sins. Plus, who is to say that you won't have thoughts even throughout your marriage? God forbid!

From Truth.Seeker:The key is knowing that doing something "less beneficial" for you is not "wrong." Just like to be "perfect" one must sell everything and follow Him, if you don't do that you're not committing a sin, you're just not as benefitted as you otherwise would be.

This statement is not applicable to most people who are reading it...that is unless they are all monks
Following Christ does not necessarily mean to become a monk, it can mean many things. Once again, monasticism is a calling and should remain a calling from God himself....if you are called than do it, if not, dont. Simple as that

GB
Tony

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AMoussa01

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 07:26 PM

I want to clarify my last 2 sentences so there is no confusion for readers. When i said: "This statement is not applicable to most people who are reading it...that is unless they are all monks," i was referring to YOUR definition of following Christ.

GB
Tony

P.S someone really needs to get that "revise" button back! Anyone? PaulS?

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maggie

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 09:48 PM

Hahaha, I think there is an edit button at the top Tony )

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maggie

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 09:49 PM

...or not?

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Sep 24, 2008 - 11:54 PM

Tony,

What are you talking about? I don't even know how to respond. Being a monk is better than being married if you can control the sins which you will commit as a RESULT OF not being married.

Perhaps you thought I was talking to you in my post, and are therefore interpreting what I said in the context of what you said. I wasn't.

BTW - the "perfect" statement is not my words - Jesus said it. Brush up on the Gospels before telling me Jesus's words are my opinions.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 12:16 AM

Matthew 19:

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[e] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
<b>Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”[i]
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.[j] What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” </b>
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
With God All Things Are Possible

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

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AMoussa01

posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 12:31 AM

First of all, you prove nothing with your argument. I already stated that "Follow me" does not necessarily mean monasticism. There are man ways to follow Christ's footsteps and I find it silly to have to make a list for you, but here you go:

1) Priesthood
2) Preaching His resurrection
3) Living in the SACRAMENT of marriage
4) Being a "Perfect" Christian

The difference between what you are arguing and the passage you have posted was that the young man valued his possessions more than anything and that is why he was lacking. Christ was basically giving him the option of living a more humble life - He said nothing about going to the desert and living in a small cell. Once again, monasticism is a calling; so it is not for everyone. Only few are chosen and even fewer succeed.

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 01:15 AM

Tony - you're the one talking about monasticism - not me. First, you say it's not about monasticism, then you say it's only applicable to monks, now you say it's not about monasticism.

IN FACT, you said the following about the "perfect" passage: "This statement is not applicable to most people who are reading it...that is unless they are all monks ." A PRIEST and a MARRIED MAN CANNOT go sell everything they have and follow Him - in fact, that is according to St. Paul. Read Corinthians - St. Paul says it's better not to be married because when you are married you HAVE to take care of your wife and family, and cannot just focus on serving Christ.

Monasticism is for those who can do it - those who can do it can only do it because they are called to do it. But God does not arbitrarily pick who He calls, otherwise we do not have freewill to accept or reject Him. All faith comes from God, but He only gives it to those who are receptive to that which He has already given.

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AMoussa01

posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 03:03 AM

From Truth.Seeker:Tony - you're the one talking about monasticism - not me. First, you say it's not about monasticism, then you say it's only applicable to monks, now you say it's not about monasticism.

You seem to be confused. The passage you quoted was not about monasticism. However, you believe it is, so I humored you; i was not agreeing with you. If you read the second to last post you would see how i used YOUR definition of the passage.

From Truth.Seeker:IN FACT, you said the following about the "perfect" passage: "This statement is not applicable to most people who are reading it...that is unless they are all monks ." A PRIEST and a MARRIED MAN CANNOT go sell everything they have and follow Him - in fact, that is according to St. Paul. Read Corinthians - St. Paul says it's better not to be married because when you are married you HAVE to take care of your wife and family, and cannot just focus on serving Christ.

I think thats all of what priests do actually. It is their job in fact! Or do you disagree? What do you have to say for the many married couples who left all that they have had to go and serve homeless people and take care of orphans?

From Truth.Seeker:Monasticism is for those who can do it - those who can do it can only do it because they are called to do it. But God does not arbitrarily pick who He calls, otherwise we do not have freewill to accept or reject Him. All faith comes from God, but He only gives it to those who are receptive to that which He has already given.

Obviously God does not arbitrarily pick people to live the life. We can either listen or ignore the call. I also agree that it is for those who can handle it, however, even if you can, that does not automatically mean that you have to do it; God may have another plan for you instead. Just because you are not alone sitting in the desert does not mean you are not glorifying God in everything you do and "Following" Him.

GB
Tony

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