The official forums of the Coptic Media Network, focusing on Coptic hymns, Orthodoxy, spirituality, friendship, and member experiences.
posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 03:37 AM
Tony, you confused undergrad, read my original post, I do not mention monasticism in the usage of the "perfect" verse. If priests sold everything and followed him, they wouldn't be receiving salaries. If the wife is willing to live with nothing - perfect; if not (99.999999% of the time), he has to support his family. You are boring me. This topic is done with.
posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 12:25 PM
No Tony, that is not what I am telling you. Doing THAT is GREAT, but it is not PERFECT. To be PERFECT, you MUST go sell everything you have and follow Him. By the way - that's how the greatest monk in history did it - St. Anthony went to church, heard this verse, went, sold MOST everything, was going to leave some for his sister. Then he decided, everything means everything, so, he sent her to a convent, and he gave the rest of it away.
I don't make this stuff up. You don't have to go into a monastic order when you sell everything - you could just as well roam around. You are not grasping the "key" I mentioned earlier. Like I said, the KEY is knowing that something "less than perfect" is not wrong, it is just less beneficial. Rewards in Heaven are not all the same.
posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 12:28 PM
Look at the exchange between Jesus and the rich man. Jesus starts by telling Him to follow the commandments. And only AFTER the rich man says, "been there, done that, what ELSE," did Jesus say, "well, if you want to be PERFECT (not just GREAT) do this."
posted on Sep 25, 2008 - 07:56 PM
The bottomline is that not everyone is the same or has the same circumstances, therefore, God does not all wish for us to become monks or nuns. Not because we are not able, since we are all able to achieve anything through Christ, but because He has other plans for us. Some of us were meant to serve different purposes, dont you agree with that? This is all I am trying to say...
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 02:11 AM
Songs of Solomon 2:15
Catch us the foxes,The little foxes that spoil the vines,For our vines have tender grapes.
Could we please step on ourselves and talk gently? we are more than brothers, we are ONE , must we argue over the smallest of things and forget the big foe we are all fighting? King Solomon taught us a very simple wise lesson, catch the little foxes, the little things that ruin big things later on, catch them while they are young and tender and inexperienced... I just hate to see two Coptic orthodox people fighting/arguing over who is right when its a simple matter of misunderstanding or personal choice of words or whatever, we are far better than that guys
now you may go on back to arguing or even start arguing with me, but i am out.
God bless you all 
and i meant no offense, and sorry to butt in
Jeremiah 2:26
"For they have turned their backs to me, but at the time of their tribulation they say, Rise and Save us Lord"
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 02:17 AM
Why has this topic diverged to be on Selling your possessions and on Monastacism? That's not what the topic was at all. It was about Celibacy and Matrimony. You can be a Celibate without being a monk, I know plenty of people like that. Many of the Apostles were in that situation. Secondly, you don't have to be a monk to give away all your possessions, again many of the Apostles in early Christendom were in such a situation. But anyways, this topic has diverged. We are talking about whether being Celibate is better than Matrimony. And I think in one sense it is. But you can easily be a perfect person and be married. If it was marriage that prevented a person from reaching perfection, that it must undeniably be classified as a sin. A perfect person, is a person who commits no sin, and only commits virtue. If a person is lacking in perfection only because he is married, then marriage is a sin. But marriage is not, and it was institutionalized as a holy union reflecting the Image of the Triune God and His Relationship with the Church (the Body). It is no more of a virtue than Celibacy is: both are commitments, one is to God, and one is to both God and their wife.
God Bless
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 05:09 AM
As for all of us having different purposes - true, but some purposes are higher than others. Remember when St. Paul mentioned the different religious abilities of members of the congregation (speaking in tongues, prophecying, etc...)? He said everyone has a different ability, but then he proceeded to list the greatest abilities and went down the list. I can get you the verses if you like.
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 05:20 AM
There is a crown for Apostleship too, and Christ was NOT an Apostle, but of course is the Perfect Person. What's your point? The Crowns of Martyrdom and Celibacy and all these different things, we are honoring virtues. These virtues are easily given to all people. The virtue of martyrdom is that we are willing to give away all for the sake of Christ. If we are not willing to commit to that basic virtue, whether we are martyred (considering the circumstances we are in, whether we live in Saudi Arabia or not) or not, we will not inherit His eternal kingdom.
God Bless
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 06:08 AM
From Truth.Seeker:According to the Coptic Church, there's a crown for celibacy. Just from that fact, all else equal, a non-married person will be rewarded more than a married person. I don't make this stuff up as I go along.
And who is to say there is no crown for being the head of good Christian family? In fact, I see more rewards for someone who has a family than for someone who choses to live life alone. care to rebut? I would love to see where you are going with this...
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 02:16 PM
1) The Coptic Orthodox Church says so. Take it up with it.
2) To this point I've assumed you have knowledge of the Bible, I will stop assuming that and just give you verses:
<b>Matthew 19</b>
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”
<b>1 Corinthians 7</b>
1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
_____________
Now, if you want to tell me being celibate for the sake of Christ is not better than being married - take it up with Jesus and St. Paul.
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 03:05 PM
If you guys simply re-read what you've been saying there hasn't been much contradiction...
From what was said life of celibacy is better. However it is not necessarily the wisest. One might think he can live a life of celibacy now but in the long term will fall and die, that is why marriage, for some is better.
However, as I heard in a sermon once, the life of marriage in itself has its own advantages over that the life of celibacy . For example, the will of the man and the woman is not always going to be the same. It helps us humble ourselves and submit to another's opinion. Sacrifices must be done for the other person. This helps us do the same with God. A celibate person will not be as exposed to these types of challenges.
Life of celibacy is hard and not as suggested as one might think. As St. Paul said it is better for us to marry than to burn with passion. One thinks he can live celibate now does not necessarily mean he won't bun with passion in 10 years. Sometimes it is simply better to go in the safe direction. We are talking of our spiritual life, it is the most important thing. So really, everything will depend on the person. All of this simple common knowledge.
Finally, i dont see anyone disagreeing the fact that ceibacy is better. However, one must look at the circumstances of his life. Will you burn with passion? Can you truly learn humility alone? Is it really better for ME? (all of these answers will differ from person to person) because even if it is better in general it might simply make a person lose in his spiritual life.
GB
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 03:19 PM
I agree with everything in your post jshouk. From my understanding, people were disagreeing that one can be "perfect" - i.e. "go sell everything you have and follow me" and be married at the same time. Also, some are suggesting that celibacy is not better than being married. If that's not the case - then you're absolutely right, we're just arguing for no good reason.
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 06:57 PM
When it is said that Celibacy is better than Marriage, or abstinence from Alcohol is better than drinking, we are saying so because in both positions it is easier to stay away from sin.
"For many, complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."
But we can be just as holy and good people as Celibates even if we are married, for all of these are means to one God. In Celibacy, it's easier to acquire self-control, while in marriage not as easily. Same goes with the abstinence from alcohol.
God Bless
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 02:15 PM
"When it is said that Celibacy is better than Marriage, or abstinence from Alcohol is better than drinking, we are saying so because in both positions it is easier to stay away from sin."
No, we say that because God said so. We do not know the mind of God, and once we start speculating about what God thinks, we need to stop.
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 10:17 PM
A celibate man who murders is obviously worse than a married man who doesn't. Let's not engage in a waste of time, and tell me I made absolute statements I didn't. I said, ALL ELSE EQUAL, a celibate man is better off than a married man. Did Jesus say that? Let's see:
<b>Matthew 19</b>
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is <b>better not to marry.”</b>
11 But He said to them, <b>“All cannot accept this saying,</b> but only those to whom it has been given: 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. <b>He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.” </b>
Instead of rebuking His disciples for saying it is BETTER not to marry. He merely told them that's not possible for everyone, but he who it is possible for, should do it.
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 04:27 AM
Truth.Seeker, there is a difference between being better and off and being better. I am better off studying three weeks before my exam, but I might be able to get a better mark, studying even less but improving my concentration. Celibacy makes it easier for us to fall into sexual sins, and yet at the same time it is a struggle we should be willing to make, if we feel we have that God-given power. That way we are safer from the beguilement of Satan. The same goes with alcohol. Less alcohol, generally means a less chance of falling into the sin of losing self-control. And if we make the commitment, we will more likely reap better results than had we drunk more.
God Bless
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 07:37 PM
Truth.Seeker, with all due respect, don't tell me who I am disagreeing with. I am disagreeing with you, not God. I am showing you how you are wrong about what you said about God. The Lord Jesus didn't say that Celibacy is better. He said you are better off being a Celibate, if you have the God-given power. There is a difference.
God Bless
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 08:02 PM
Hello,
I am sure we can resolve this matter without any ill-will towards our brothers and sisters; otherwise, we will lose any and all reward for thinking of such elevated spiritual matters.
What do the Church Fathers say on the matter? Can one of you research and compile a list of what the Fathers who spoke about the subject said? I believe the answer lies in their writings and interpretations, not our own.
GBU,
ps
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 08:05 PM
+ Glory be to God
I just remembered that one of our newer coptichymns.net Network Sites, the Official Site of the St. Paul Brotherhood here in the Diocese of Los Angeles, contains a wonderful article on the subject:
Celibacy by Saint John Chrysostom
Let us all read it and benefit from the words of Saint John Chrysostom!
GBU,
ps
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 08:35 PM
From PaulS:What do the Church Fathers say on the matter?
Paul,
Thank you for being such a refreshing voice of prudence and Orthodoxy amidst a sea of absurdity, sophomoric sophistry, and pseudo-Protestantism.
Indeed, "what do the Church Fathers say?" The core guiding question that should shape and determine our pursuit to, and conclusion on, any given inquiry into any and every matter pertaining to the Faith. Our diocese here in Sydney recently organised its first Patristic Symposium to be held on the 25th October 2008 (at which I have had the undeserved honour of being invited to speak). As much as it pleases me to see a resurgent interest in reviving the voice of the Fathers in the Orthodox conscience, I cannot help but ask in frustration, "what took us so long?!!!" Better late than never I guess.
Return to the Forum Index
Powered by the coptichymns.net Network of Coptic Hymns and Coptic Orthodox Sites.
| Total | Daily | ||
| Topics: | 7221 | 3.92 | |
| Users: | 6148 | 3.34 | |
| Posts: | 60826 | 33.05 | |
388 unlogged users and No registered users online now.
Already a member? Log in above.
Not a member? Register your unique identity to participate more fully in our site!