mikokiko
posted on Oct 03, 2008 - 05:25 PM
Truth.seeker, I admire your desire to stay truthful to the Gospel and the Church Fathers, but you are not understanding where I am coming from at all. First off, any interpretation based on a verse or two or three in the Scriptures, must have the ENTIRE context of the Scriptures informing it. So if I make a "speculation" on what the Lord Jesus says about something, I am not making it on my own personal opinion but on what the Lord Jesus Himself taught.
It is sad to say, that some in the Church have begun to teach rules, and not a system of belief. Some people believe that the Church is about trying to get her children to memorize different doctrines. But nothing could be further from the Truth. Every doctrine in the Church is connected to another one in some way. The Mystery of the Resurrection is connected with Christ's Crucifixion, which is connected with the Incarnation, which is connected to the Trinity, which is connected with creation. Christianity is not simply a set of rules compiled together into one big book. No! It is a philosophy, we have to understand it and live it, its a system. So why do I say all this? Because the Lord Jesus Himself said the following in this passage:
"When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” (Mark 7:17-23)
So what is our Lord trying to say here? He is saying the true sins are not caused simply from the body. They don't start in the body, or else, those purely physical beings, i.e. the Animal Kingdom, and heck even the Plant Kingdom, would stand before Christ on Judgment Day, but they will not, because we have another component: the mind, which is not physical. I've said this before, and I will say it again. The true sins and virtues are really spiritual ones. So let us establish this as premise one:
1. Nothing physical is sinful in and of itself, as both St. Paul and the Lord Jesus Himself have said.
Now lets go on to establish another premise:
"The whole point of 'thou shalt not kill' is that it causes an adrenaline rush in the body. It is bad for one to not control their adrenaline and from indulging in too much of it. Therefore, if someone just kills someone carelessly without much adrenaline involved, it is just fine."
This is what I mean. The Scriptures offer us an understanding of the complete fabric of Christian morality and ethics. For one, we have already established that the mind is the source of our will and our actions. Therefore the act of killing in and of itself cannot be called a sin, but what makes it a sin is hatred, as St. John the Theologian says: "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
Whoever lusts period, is an adulterer, as the Lord Jesus says: But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now let's apply all this and try to understand the spirit of Christian morality, rather than try to memorize separate facts, as if fact A had nothing to do with fact B.
Christ is saying we cannot gain virtues solely from the body. So let's take what you said before, in general if all else is equal, a Celibate is better in virtue than a married person (which means that marriage is somehow sinful, since it prevents someone from reaching perfection). But now lets put it under the scrutiny of the Lord Jesus' teaching.
Let's assume what you said is true, and make it the second premise to my argument:
2. Celibacy is a virtue in itself
Since you say all else equal, let's assume that a man came down to earth and all that he ever did was to choose between being married and therefore fulfill the union between his wife, or become a Celibate. Let's assume he has ALL the other virtues. Self-control and everything. But it solely boiled down to his choosing one of the two. In such a case, his choice would boil down to that of simply the body, and nothing else. Which is contrary to what Christ taught. It would be a matter of joining the matrimonial bond with someone and using his sexual organs or not. That's it. Which is false. Therefore this conclusion must follow from my two previous premises:
1. Sin and Virtue both depend on the mind, not on the Body
2. Celibacy is a virtue
3. Celibacy depends on the mind, and not on the Body
Do you see the implications of what you are saying? If what we said was true Celibacy would not solely mean giving up sex and marriage, just as adultery, in Christ's definition (since it does not depend on the body), does not solely mean that a man must lay with another woman. When looking at the entire context of what the Lord Jesus says, we can better understand (not fully, of course), we can't full understand anything at all, let alone God, because we are not Omniscient like He is, and yet He does provide us with some minute understanding of Him, to not leave us in the darkness of blind faith. A person who becomes Celibate, is in a better position (and will 9 times out of ten), be a better person, than a married person. In other words, he is better off. If we are able to do it, we should do it, Christ says. Not that it is in and of itself better than the union of one flesh in Matrimony that Christ also institutionalized. A Celibate is in a better position for self-sacrifice, he is in a better position for self-control, he is in a better position of staying away from indulging in passions and lusts. But there is nothing inherently good about not using a certain creation that God made for a certain reason. Let's understand His message, and not memorize it truth.seeker.
From Truth.Seeker:So, basically, I am to ignore clear verses of the Bible, and ignore all exegesis of those clear verses by Church Fathers, and listen to you. Not my style.
Where did I say that? Don't paint a picture of an infidel and replace it with mine. I never said something like that, nor implied. I am saying the modern teaching of the Church on sex has shifted from those of the earlier Church Fathers. Really shifted. I mean St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine, really believed that procreation, was a pardonable sin in marriage. Others like St. Gregory the Theologian didn't.
Their views and the modern views on contraception have changed. And not one of these Church Fathers wholeheartedly agree with each other on sexual issues themselves. Again, go read through the long treatises of St. Augustine, perhaps the greatest saint of his day, and you will be aware of what I am saying. He believed the sexual union, whether in marriage or not, to be a corruption in man, as a result of the fall. While I will be surprised if you can find me a handful of priests who will agree with him today. The Lord Jesus did not institutionalize corruption into a Sacrament.
Anyways,
God Bless
Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1019
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