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Corinthians 7: On Marriage and Celibacy
Truth.Seeker
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 05:07 PM
You are on the side of a heretic called Jovinian, and standing in the face of Biblical verses that are so clear that every major saint you could think of has given the EASY conclusion that celibacy is better than marraige, and in the face of your own Church which says there is a crown for virginity.
Obviously, if you're going to ignore all of that, then you're not going to listen to me.
mikokiko
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 05:17 PM
I'm not going to make non-sequitors from the fact that there are virgins in heaven that just from that premise virginity is better than Matrimony. Regardless, you only throw statements of, you don't want to believe Christ. Show me where Christ said that Celibacy is inherently better than Matrimony. I believe that in Celibacy you are FAR BETTER OFF than had you married. But there is nothing inherently good about giving up a certain creation of God, because doing otherwise would make you less good and complete. The only thing that can keep you from perfection is sin. If Celibacy is better than Matrimony, then there is something in Matrimony that is sinful, even if it be minutely sinful.
I am not Jovinian. Jovinian made absolutely no distinction between Celibacy and Matrimony. I do. I say that you are FAR FAR better off being a Celibate than being a Matrimony. But I do not make the claim that giving up your organs is inherently better than using them. I say that when you give them up, you are far better off than someone who does lawfully.
God Bless
Truth.Seeker
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 06:06 PM
As for "non-sequitur," I did not say virginity is better than matrimony because all of the 144,000 are virgins, I said that should give you pause. But when virginity is talked about as a quality in revelation, then non-virginity must not be as much of a quality.
mikokiko
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 06:09 PM
If you believe that matrimony is a result of the fall of man and is a corruption in him, if you believe that contraception is not against the Church's teaching, if you believe that sex was not the sin committed in the Paradise of Joy, and if you believe that the physical matrimonial union is NOT a pardonable sin, then you disagree with many Church Fathers. And the Church today does as well. No one agrees with a Church Father 100% of the time, because we look at the Body of the Church, and what as a whole She has taught us, and what we have learned through the generations. The only Person we agree with 100% of the time is Christ. Having said that of course they are important authorities in the Church, and we should most definitely heed what they say, they are our guide to establishing doctrines of our belief. But not EVERYTHING they say and ever will say is accurate. That is why the Church is a Body, and not a collection of individuals.
You still haven't pointed out to me where Christ said Celibacy is inherently better than Matrimony.
Revelation is not saying that virginity is a quality of their being there, but the fact that they are virgins means they could not have defiled women.
God Bless
God Bless
Truth.Seeker
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 06:57 PM
The problem with your disagreement with the Church Fathers is that they were 1) unanimous in their view, AND 2) their view is the same view as the Church has today on THIS ISSUE. They were unanimous in their views against contraception, but the Church disagrees with them.
.
mikokiko
posted on Oct 06, 2008 - 10:59 PM
Truth.Seeker, that is a misunderstanding that is based on a false conclusion. Simply because there is a crown for virginity, is no reason for assuming that the Church considers virginity a virtue in and of itself. There is a crown for martyrdom, is martyrdom a virtue in and of itself? If so, why hasn't the greatest creature of all creation, attained that virtue (i.e. Theotokos St. Mary)? And why aren't there crowns for all the other virtues? Why aren't there crowns for Love, Self-Control? There is a crown for monasticism, does that mean that monasticism is a virtue in and of itself?
No, it is just, that the likelihood of reaching the true virtues, of self-control, love, purity, and selflessness, is FAR higher for these actions than any other. But there is no inherent moral worth in offering yourself up to death, or for giving up use of your organs, or for spending time alone in the desert. But a martyr is a million times, with no exaggeration, in a better position for self-sacrifice than a non-martyr. Not that a non-martyr cannot reach the same virtue, and even GREATER. We have people like St. Samuel the Confessor, who may have exceeded many martyrs in the virtue of self-sacrifice, because that is what were are primarily concerned about with martyrdom.
Don't make false conclusions.
God Bless
mikokiko
posted on Oct 07, 2008 - 01:28 AM
Truth.Seeker, I never deduced from the fact that there is a Crown for Virginity, then that means that with Virginity, we are better off. You are the one who wrongly deduced that because Virginity is a Crown that it is a virtue in and of itself. You can't make conclusions like that.
God Bless
mikokiko
posted on Oct 07, 2008 - 05:39 AM
We are all obligated to be perfect. But we are not all obligated to be martyrs and apostles (Christ certainly wasn't an apostle). We are all required to attain the virtue of self-sacrifice and be willing to be martyred for Him. Whether we are martyred in actuality does not make us more perfect. Therefore there is no intrinsic moral value in the act itself. Having said that one who is martred clearly demonstrates his self-sacrife for Christ, and has in all likelihood, better attained the virtue of self-sacrifice than any non-martry, if we want to look to at it in application, rather than theoretically.
God Bless
Truth.Seeker
posted on Oct 07, 2008 - 06:29 PM
Well, you ignore my whole argument and talk to me theoretically. PRACTICALLY, if you ARE martyred, you will get a special Crown for it. That is a reward in Heaven. If you do all the self-sacrifice things you talked about and you are NOT martyred, you do NOT get that Crown. This is not complicated stuff.
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