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posted on Sep 23, 2008 - 09:57 PM
Hello,
During Vespers praise, does the tune (Annual, Joyful, Sha3neeny, etc.) reflect the Vespers (which reflect the next time) or does it reflect the actual day?
e.g. On the Eve of Palm Sunday, is the Vespers Praise chanted in the annual tune or the Sha3neeny/Joyful tune?
Thanks.
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Your Servant,
Michael Fam
Saint Marina Coptic Orthodox Church
posted on Sep 23, 2008 - 10:04 PM
I am pretty sure that the tune reflects the day and the vespers. When its the eve, you would say the sha-inini tune. Same goes for the feast of the cross. I am almost positive that for all eves you would start using the tunes.
GB
Tony
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Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 07:02 PM
Hello,
This is a fascinating question. I can say that, in my experience, Vesper Praises always follow the tone and feast of the Vespers themselves.
Not doing it that way would lead to some strange results. For example, take the Feast of the Lord's Entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday.) In that feast, we have Aricalpizin, a Psali specifically for the event. If we say that Vesper Praises on the Saturday night before Palm Sunday should NOT follow the Vespers of Palm Sunday, then we would not chant this Psali ever. Why? Because the feast is only on Sunday. There is no Vesper Praise on Sunday night due to the Holy Pascha. The only time it could be chanted, therefore, is Saturday night.
I can understand why there is confusion here, though, because of the Jewish hours of the day, which our Church still retains. Thus, the first hour is 6:00a, the third is 9:00a, the sixth is 12:00p, and so forth. In this scheme, the new day begins after the twelfth hour, which is 6:00p. Vespers in this scheme is the eleventh hour, which is 5:00p. Technically, then, Vesper Praises would fall before the new day, so if there were a feast on the next day, we would technically not be celebrating that feast until after 6:00 p.m.
However, our Church in her wisdom has united the Raising of Incense services to the Holy Liturgy--and by extension, whichever feast is celebrated on the day of the Holy Liturgy. For this reason, the Vesper Praise is tied to the Vesper Raising of Incense, which, in turn, is tied to the Holy Liturgy on the next morning.
GBU,
ps
posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 08:51 PM
How can you sing the hymns for the Saturday psali, theotokia, and lobsh and also sing hymns for the feast of the following day? I completely understand your post, Paul, and I agree with it 100%, but it intrigues me how we would chant, arisalpisin, which is for the feast of Palm SUNDAY, and then chant the saturday theotokia and lobsh. It kind of contradicts itself, doesn't it?
Maybe arisalpisin is to be chanted in midnight praises instead of the Sunday psali. Maybe when HICS, or whomever, recorded arisalpisin, they intended it to be chanted during midnight praises and left vesper praises to be chanted with its proper rites.
Just thoughts
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posted on Sep 26, 2008 - 10:24 PM
Hello,
Yes, this could be a contradiction, but only if we assume that we should be chanting the Saturday Theotokia! I recently spoke to a priest who attended a lecture by Fr. Mettias Nasr Mankorious--well known for his involvement with the HICS and the preservation of Coptic hymns generally--in which Abouna seemed to say that the old tradition was to chant the Sunday Theotokia on Saturday evening. If this is correct, then there would be no contradiction at all. Perhaps this notion of chanting the Saturday Theotokia is a more modern development that creates the inconsistency when, in reality, according to the Church's tradition, there is no inconsistency.
GBU,
ps
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posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 04:33 PM
To clear up what PaulS said, the concept to understand this is that as much as you are doing this in 2 different days (Sat and Sun), the services are also ALL CONNECTED. Meaning that Vespers Praise and Vespers are on Saturday. So you do Saturday rite (watos psalies, Saturday theotokeia). But with this in mind, you have to consider the fact that this is part of the next day, Sunday. So you to connect them, you’d take certain things of the general rite of Sunday (being whatever, a feast for example), like the tunes, the rite of ak`i/aktwnk, ending `amyn allylouia and doxologies. You can see what I am talking with the fact that you’d say the watos verses of cymbals on vespers on Saturday.
I guess it’s still confusing a little...but that’s why we always ask question and use certain small hints in books to explain this….not contradicting in essence.
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 05:50 PM
That's what I have always been confused about. In the Vespers Praise of the Feast of Palm Sunday, we have mixed rules. One rule says that all the words chanted belong to Saturday (and are thus all Batos). So the Batos Psali Arisalpizin is chanted, the Saturday Theotokia is chanted, and O Penchois is chanted along with the batos Exposition. But the tunes all match the COPTIC day it belongs to. So though the words all belong to the Saturday, the tunes belong to the day following. So Arisalpizin is chanted in the festive tune, aktonk is said (if the following day is a Sunday after the Resurrection), and the Sheraat is chanted in the Festive tune. I think the Church does this to transition from Saturday to Sunday, as the Sun is setting, Saturday is going from being Annual to Festive (Lazarus Saturday to Palm Sunday). That's just a speculation, but this is the tuqs that is mostly used both by popular and professional practice.
God Bless
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 10:46 PM
Paul,
I think we're all hung up here on what the actual "correct," traditional taqs is for the vesper praise of the eve of palm sunday and other sundays (if they follow the same taqs). So are you saying that the correct taqs is to chant the tunes of vesper praise in the farai7y/sha3aneeny tune, along with the sunday theotokia, while simultaneously chanting the "watos" psali of Palm Sunday? However, if vesper praise is to follow the midnight praise since the new day technically begins with vesper praise (as is suggested by Abouna Mettias' comments concerning the same theotokia being chanted as sunday midnight praise), then shouldn't the Adam psali be chanted as sunday is "Adam?" Also, in this case, why would there even be a watos psali? still sounds contradictory to me? Please clarify!
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 10:50 PM
From mikokiko:That's what I have always been confused about. In the Vespers Praise of the Feast of Palm Sunday, we have mixed rules. One rule says that all the words chanted belong to Saturday (and are thus all Batos). So the Batos Psali Arisalpizin is chanted, the Saturday Theotokia is chanted, and O Penchois is chanted along with the batos Exposition. But the tunes all match the COPTIC day it belongs to. So though the words all belong to the Saturday, the tunes belong to the day following. So Arisalpizin is chanted in the festive tune, aktonk is said (if the following day is a Sunday after the Resurrection), and the Sheraat is chanted in the Festive tune. I think the Church does this to transition from Saturday to Sunday, as the Sun is setting, Saturday is going from being Annual to Festive (Lazarus Saturday to Palm Sunday). That's just a speculation, but this is the tuqs that is mostly used both by popular and professional practice.
God Bless
thank you for explanation....that's exactly what i mean. A mix of both days.....
posted on Sep 29, 2008 - 11:06 PM
Hello,
Just to clarify, I wasn't commenting on the proper rite for the Feast of Our Lord's Entry into Jerusalem. I was just making an observation as to the strange results that would occur if we did not tie the Vesper Praise to the event celebrated on the next day. My point was that we would never chant Aricalpizin in that situation, because the Vesper Praise would have to be annual (following Lazarus Saturday) and then there would be no opportunity to chant this Psalia on the next day (due to the beginning of the Holy Pascha.)
Clearly, then, we would have to chant that particular Psalia during Vesper Praises on Saturday evening or else it would not exist in its present form.
I guess our collective question is why, since everything else–including the Vesper Raising of Incense–follows the rite of the following day. So far, what I have heard from Mikokiko and Abahoor seems reasonable, but it would be nice to confirm it somehow or reach the correct answer through some other way.
If you're wondering simply what the current rite is, I can tell you from both the HICS and Old Cathedral recordings that, on the Vesper Praises of the feast, you chant the following:
1. Nie;noc tyrou
2. Fourth Canticle
3. Aricalpizin
4. Aicwrem (Psalia for the Virgin)
5. Af] `mpounof (Saturday Psalia)
6. Saturday Theotokia
7. Loubsh on Saturday Theotokia ("Sheraat")
8. Conclusion of Batos Theotokias, `WPen[oic.
All of the Psalias are chanted in the Watos festal tone. The Sheraat are chanted in the sha3neeny tone, which is comprised of three individual tunes: the first four verses are like }`ctoly from the Rite of the Crowning (Weddings); the second four verses have a tune similar to the sha3neeny introduction to the doxologies; and the third four verses until the end have the commonly known fast sha3neeny tune.
But again, why is it so, especially if Fr. Mettias seems to think that in our earlier tradition, we chanted the Sunday Theotokia? If the Saturday Vesper Praise is the cut-off between Saturday and Sunday, why do we use Saturday words with Sunday tunes?
GBU,
ps
posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 12:49 AM
From PaulS:Hello,
But again, why is it so, especially if Fr. Mettias seems to think that in our earlier tradition, we chanted the Sunday Theotokia? If the Saturday Vesper Praise is the cut-off between Saturday and Sunday, why do we use Saturday words with Sunday tunes?
well what i understood (just my opinion), is that there is always this connection we make in our church hymnology. for example:
In weekends of Lent, you'de have the praxis response with it's normal festive-sounding tune but with very emotional words. "Remember me O my Lord..."
In `Wouniatk the hymn of Deemas, it's the normal Parlex tune. same to many hymns of Holy Week including the most famous, Praxeonton.
So when we do this in vespers praises, you would have the word of the right day, as we all been talking about. But you say it with the tune of the entire occasion attracting the people's minds to what is happening. because if you think more about it, who would you do a procession for a saint if his feast is tomorrow (for example as the church celebrates Her saints). So
I think it's that amazing connection that the Church always have for everyone's benefit.
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