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Learn2dance

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 08:31 PM

I'm Sure this topic has come up many times before, but after watching this video, it seems like if the church doesn't have the correct approach on the topic or they are merely indifferent people.
Here is a link to a post on you tube I found earlier today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaNCXx6aPdo

Joined: Sep 30, 2008 | Posts: 2

PaulS

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 08:57 PM

Hello,

This question has been discussed quite a bit, especially in light of the recent same-sex marriage decisions throughout the United States.

Let me address some general points first, which I will take directly from a post we now have in our Coptic Perspectives Blog. Same-sex marriage is contrary to God’s plan for mankind and Christian principles. God created the first humans male and female and immediately commanded them to procreate with His blessing (Gen. 1:27, 28). This creation expressed His life-giving and self-giving nature in perfect morality. Our Lord Jesus Christ reiterated the natural union between male and female (See, e.g., Matt. 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6). Saint Paul the Apostle repeatedly spoke against the sin of homosexual union (See, e.g., 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:9, and Rom. 1:26).

The Church Fathers unanimously spoke against these unions, as well. Saint John Chrysostom wrote these unions “have done an insult to nature itself” (Homilies on Romans 4). Saint Basil the Great wrote, “He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers” (Letters 217:62).

Our blessed Coptic Orthodox Church has maintained a consistent position on this issue, one that is based on God’s plan for mankind and the life-giving teachings of the Holy Scriptures. In August 2003, under the leadership of our honored father, His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, the Church issued a declaration, signed by 14 bishops and over 200 priests, clarifying its position. The declaration stated, in part, that same-sex marriage “not only contradict[s] biblical teachings, but also pose[s] a serious threat to the stability of the family unit, the morals of society, the purity of the Church, and the future of ecumenical unity.”

In a summary, these points reflect the Church's response to the sin of homosexual actions. They are completely based on the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers who were taught by the disciples and apostles after Christ's ascension.

With respect to this video, which I watched with great sadness, I have the following to say.

The person in the video lashes out with profanity and inappropriate comments against the hierarchy of the Church for supposedly not accepting him. That is actually not true at all. In reality, he is lashing out, because he refuses to change his disposition and expects the Church to change God's teaching for him.

As many have said repeatedly, the Church rejects the sin, not the sinner. Just as homosexual thoughts and actions are sins, so also are, for example, murder and adultery. Does this mean the Church has to accept people who continue to murder without any remorse or acknowledgement that their actions are wrong? The answer is clearly no... it seems ridiculous to most people. That being so, it is the same with homosexuality. People who engage in those actions are upset with the Church, because the Church will not give its approval and accept them as long as they continue to repeat the sin without any acknowledgement that it is sinful behavior.

Some will ask, "Well, aren't homosexuals born that way?" There is by no means a consensus about this, but even if that were the case, just as some people have homosexual tendencies, there are others who have murderous tendencies. Does this mean the Church must give its stamp of approval to that in contravention of God's commandments? Of course not, and it is the same with homosexuality.

No matter what sin we're tempted by, no matter what disposition we believe we have, it is our duty to search through the Holy Scriptures and follow what God teaches us. This is the same God Who condescended to become human--to take the form of His own creation--to save us from our sins. In response to that great love He showed us--a love that will never be repeated in this world--the absolute least we can do is lead a life of holiness and purity in accordance with His commandments out of our love for Him. He loved us that we may love Him. I'm sorry this person doesn't feel that he is loved by the Church, but the Church cannot rewrite the Holy Scriptures and change history like he wants. This person himself must change; he must fight against his tendencies and inclinations, because this is what God commanded, and if he does, God--who loved him so much that He sacrificed himself for this person's eternal life--will accept him, and the Church will accept him, too.

Let us all pray for this person, ask that God may lead him to His Church, and ask that God forgive him for the blasphemies he uttered against the priests of the Lord.

And pray for my weakness, as well.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Learn2dance

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 09:06 PM

Thank you for taking the time to write that reply. I understand that the church does not accept the act with in itself. But why be all negative about it? Whats the point of telling the person they will be condemned to hell, when, and i know this of a lot of people who are gay, who cannot control the way they feel? Why is it that the church is less sympathetic and places murder and adultery on par with these sexual inclinations that cannot be helped? I just don't think it would be that easy to change one's sexuality...

Joined: Sep 30, 2008 | Posts: 2

PaulS

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 09:29 PM

What is the Church's mission? Many think that the Church exists so that people of like minds can simply worship together and hang out. That's not true. The mission of the Church is to preach Christ, and in doing so, to save souls.

As part of that mission, the Church must present Christ to the believers and teach them what Christ taught so that they may be united with Him and have eternal life after departing from this temporary and evil world. Thus, the Church teaches believers about proper behavior and sins that are not acceptable to God on the basis of His commandments and teachings.

In my experience, homosexuality has not been singled out more than other sins. We are all sinners dealing with so much evil and temptation in this world. I am perhaps the most wretched of sinners, but nonetheless I eagerly listen to the Church and her hierarchy when they teach me what I must do to avoid sin and gain eternal life.

Is it difficult? Absolutely, especially since our souls are now clothed in corruptible flesh that is subject to all of the temptations in this world. We have hope, however, in our Lord Jesus Christ, Who promised us the incorruptible instead of the corruptible so long as we follow His teachings and lead lives of purity and holiness.

The Church is completing its mission in instructing believers about sins such as homosexuality. We cannot expect the Church to change God's words because we want to enjoy all of the fleeting lusts and happiness this world has to offer. The Church has to preach Christ, and Christ was very clear about this. There are, of course, groups calling themselves Christian churches who accept homosexuality and are lenient, but whosoever perverts the message of Christianity and interprets Christ's words according to whatever they desire doesn't really practice Christianity. The Orthodox Church is blessed in that it has remained true to the original teachings of Christ, the Apostles, and the Church Fathers while many other groups have gone astray.

I hope this person chooses to embrace the Church rather than the world. It's difficult, I know, but it's part of the narrow path to heaven that our Lord spoke of when He said, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14) Abandoning a sinful lifestyle, rejecting the world, and living a different life than everyone else is exactly that narrow path while everything in the world is the wide path.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2441
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

jshouk

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 09:57 PM

Hi,

I personally know very little on this topic but I wish to share a few thoughts.
As Paul said, the Bible our source in knowing that homosexuality is a sin. However, Christ went on the cross for our sins and hence, redeeming the sinner. So, once more, the church rejects the sin and not the sinner.

Now, as for 'simply' changing sexuality, that is obviously quite hard. But that goes for anyone who established a habit in his life. If, some constantly swear, it becomes a habit. It becomes extremely hard to stop. Any sin is therefore hard to stop.

Now as for people being so negative, this is wrong of their part. However, if someone is proud of being homosexual we must remind this person that this is a sin and as St James says :
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."(James 1:14-15)

This goes for any sin. If I'm proud of swearing, then someone must advise me to stop being proud and start fighting the sin.
As one can observe from the verse, there is no temptation till one is drawn away and enticed. Therefore the wisest thing to do is simply avoid it and hopefully one day the desire will be gone.

I will personally pray that this person in the video, realizes that he needs to fight the sin and try to avoid it. It is sad to see someone wanting to give up on God and his church. God is the most important aspect of our life. If I have to give up everything for him than let it be, he created me from nothing where I had nothings.

Pray for me,
GB,
John

Joined: Jan 29, 2006 | Posts: 30

Publican

posted on Sep 30, 2008 - 11:07 PM

Greetings,

I do not want to interject on this conversation, I only wish to say that it is refreshing to see such pertinent social issues being discussed. There are valid ideas presented on both ends of the spectrum and it is through studying the fathers, and perhaps more importantly, appropriating their teachings to modern society, that we can come to a consensus.

There is also an excellent text written by Father Thomas Hopko on the subject (Christian Faith and Same Sex Attraction)...it would be nice if we were to all read it and present our reactions.

Finally, let us not forget that homosexuality is not new. For one, it was rampant in the 4th century desert communities. Many desert fathers have written indirectly on the subject and fighting the temptation. Also, soon to be canonized Father Seraphim Rose, was at one point in his life a active homosexual, before his repentance and entry into the monastic life. Therefore, although there may be those who are more inclined to such a lifestyle, we have great examples of saints who have overcome such temptation.

All-in-all, excellent discussion, I look forward to more responses.

In Christ,
Publican

_________________
"Fight the battle for your Heart" -- St. Antony the Great

"Sit in the presence of the Lord every moment of your life, as you think of him and recollect him in your heart." -- St. Isaac the Syrian

The greater the Knowledge of God, the greater the Love, and the greater the Love for God the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Love, the greater the Knowledge, the greater the Suffering.-- St. Silouan

Joined: Nov 18, 2005 | Posts: 108

minasoliman

posted on Oct 01, 2008 - 12:04 AM

Here's a nice article by Fr. Thomas Hopko:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2 ... lity.shtml

Straightforward and simple, and I think addresses the point sufficiently, even when mentioning the involuntary passions that any human may suffer from.

Note, it has been said that the late Fr. Seraphim Rose suffered from homosexuality before converting into Orthodoxy.

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1754

lowlyman

posted on Oct 01, 2008 - 05:40 PM

I guess the simplest answer to this is that these inclinations can be helped by those who carries them. As father Thomas Hopko states: in Christ all things are possible and victory is assured. all they have to do is engage in the fight and be patient. by the way, no one suggests following Christ is easy. Lowlyman



From Learn2dance:Thank you for taking the time to write that reply. I understand that the church does not accept the act with in itself. But why be all negative about it? Whats the point of telling the person they will be condemned to hell, when, and i know this of a lot of people who are gay, who cannot control the way they feel? Why is it that the church is less sympathetic and places murder and adultery on par with these sexual inclinations that cannot be helped? I just don't think it would be that easy to change one's sexuality...

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 240