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Faith

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 11:36 PM

Fortunatus was unable to post, so he asked me to post this on his behalf:

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Truth.Seeker,

I won't take the bait --- and for the record, the third letter was written after he had already been deposed by both Rome and the Local Synod of Alexandria (that's just an FYI) - i.e. he was a pronounced heretic..he didn't have the authority to say that to his brother (see First and Second letters) until that had been pronounced

Pray for me.

Pray for me,
Faith

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 85
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Faith

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 11:38 PM

Fortunatus was unable to post, so he asked me to post this on his behalf:

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Truth.Seeker,

I won't take the bait --- and for the record, the third letter was written after he had already been deposed by both Rome and the Local Synod of Alexandria (that's just an FYI) - i.e. he was a pronounced heretic..he didn't have the authority to say that to his brother (see First and Second letters) until that had been pronounced

Pray for me.

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 85
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Faith

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 11:40 PM

Fortunatus was unable to post, and asked me to post this on his behalf:

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Truth.Seeker,

I won't take the bait --- and for the record, the third letter was written after he had already been deposed by both Rome and the Local Synod of Alexandria (that's just an FYI) - i.e. he was a pronounced heretic..he didn't have the authority to say that to his brother (see First and Second letters) until that had been pronounced

Pray for me.

Pray for me,
Faith

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 85
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

mikehenry

posted on Jan 20, 2010 - 03:10 AM

Does anyone else see the irony of this entire thread? Really--was this staged or something?

The thread is called "Where has spirituality gone?!!"

You all have to realize how funny this is. I don't mean to laugh at you guys, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry. I can't help myself.

Happy feast of the Epiphany!

Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 130
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

mikehenry

posted on Jan 20, 2010 - 03:11 AM

Does anyone else see the irony of this entire thread? Really--was this staged or something?

The thread is called "Where has spirituality gone?!!"

You all have to realize how funny this is. I don't mean to laugh at you guys, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry. I can't help myself.

Happy feast of the Epiphany!

Mike

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 130
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 24, 2010 - 05:20 AM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

I've made my reply over in the "Video: pigeon appeared in front of Pope Shenouda III" forum where the discussion came from, and I've also sent you a PM.

Forum mod: if you're able to take the posts from the discussion over there would be great so that the original intent of this forum can stay as it was would be great!

Thanks.

pray for me,

_________________
 Agapy,
Vortounatoc
Amyn, Maren a;a!

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Joined: Sep 04, 2003 | Posts: 460
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Fortunatus

posted on Jan 24, 2010 - 05:35 AM

From mikehenry:Does anyone else see the irony of this entire thread? Really--was this staged or something?

The thread is called "Where has spirituality gone?!!"

You all have to realize how funny this is. I don't mean to laugh at you guys, but...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry. I can't help myself.

Happy feast of the Epiphany!

Mike

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Mike,

I agree with you, and really, that wasn't the intention of this thread. Another thread ended up over here because of forum issues. I am truly sorry if it has been the cause for offense. My point in continuing it was, again, that it's important to see things how the fathers saw things, not in the way we see things. Clearly this didn't end up happening, so I apologise once again. Unfortunately, I couldn't join in your laughter because I found the situation sad, rather than humorous.

Please, pray for me.

_________________
 Agapy,
Vortounatoc
Amyn, Maren a;a!

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Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

mikehenry

posted on Jan 24, 2010 - 09:42 AM

Dear Fortunatus,

It was a bit insensitive of me to laugh. Sorry for that.

This has not been a cause for offense to me. Obviously, some things may have been said that perhaps should have been said a bit differently, but I think this thread can reveal a couple of good things to us:

1- We are very passionate about what we believe! We love our church, so we are willing to go to somewhat extreme measures to reach a correct and orthodox opinion on matters. That is a good thing!

2- We are all human. We are weak. We make mistakes in heated arguments and discussions. Who doesn't? I don't think we should necessarily find this a cause of sadness more than we should find it something to work on, with hope.

With that said, let's remember that, out of his great love for Christ and His Church, St. Nicholas slapped Arius in the face at the Council of Nicaea.

But, hey, it's never too late to get back on track, to make amends, to love one another, and to discuss spiritual matters! No need for sadness (in my humble opinion).

Blessed fast of Jonah/Ninevah (starting Monday).

With Love in Christ,
Mike Henry

Prayers kindly requested (demanded).

_________________
Mike
http://www.buffalocopts.org

"When I said, 'My foot is slipping,' Your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, Your consolation brought joy to my soul."
Psalm 93:18-19

"My eyes are always toward the Lord, for He shall pluck my feet out of the trap."
Psalm 24: 15

Joined: Jan 19, 2006 | Posts: 130
Location: St. Mary and St. Moses Coptic Orthodox Church, Buffalo, NY, USA

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 24, 2010 - 07:27 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Hey MikeHenry,

It's all good, dude.

Can you maybe take a look at the first post of this thread and steer us on track with your thoughts? Maybe we can get a beneficial discussion going here that will be profitable to us all!

Thanks, and prayers demanded right back,
fortunatus

_________________
 Agapy,
Vortounatoc
Amyn, Maren a;a!

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coptichymns.net
- a taste of what is Coptic ...

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Joined: Sep 04, 2003 | Posts: 460
Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 26, 2010 - 11:13 AM

I just sent this to Fortunatus:

<i>We both know you meant Ephesus by "Council." If you're too proud and arrogant to concede that, maybe I'm not the one with the problem. Besides, even if that's what you meant, a Synod meeting in Rome is not a Council, it's a Synod. So, you were wrong or used the wrong word - you're at fault either way.</i>

And Fortunatus is basically wrong when it comes to Ecclesiastical Canon. Nestorius was STILL St. Cyril's "brother" while writing the Third Letter to him. All you have to do is read how he addresses him to figure this out. If Alexandrian and Roman Synods were enough to depose Nestorius, Ephesus wouldn't have been necessary.

In other words, the Alexandria synod can excommunicate Nestorius with respect to Alexandria and the Roman synod can excommunicate Nestorius with respect to Rome. Neither of them (and even both of them combined) can depose Nestorius from the entire Church.

Let's not start confusing people by saying random statements like this that have implications for many other theological issues. I can see a Catholic randomly reading that post and saying: "oh, look, the Copts equate a Roman Synod with an Ecumenical Council, that's what we've been saying all along!"

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 660

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 26, 2010 - 12:16 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Hello TruthSeeker,

A local synod is also called a local council in current colloquial discussions, but if you didn't know that, that's okay. In the same way, the ecumenical councils are also known as "Great Synods". I'm sorry that I did not specify for you which council or synod that I meant. I'm also sorry if I did not use "official" or "formal" terminology while having a discussion on copticymns.net. If you go to discussions on other orthodox forums (both EO and OO dialogues) you'll see what I mean.I can see how that would be confusing, though.

Nestorius would be Cyril's brother, even after excommunication if we want to be perfectly technical - he would still be his brother in Christ whom all would long for salvation for! I hope that you've done some reading on that as well. The fact of the matter is, is that when he didn't respond to Cyril's 12 Chapters, he was anathema to Alexandria, but not to the Church universal, and that's why they needed an Ecumenical Council - so as far as Cyril was concerned, Cyril was only legally his brother, but nothing more. I suggest you read a lovely book on all this called Saint Cyril and the Christological Controversy by Fr. John McGuckin. If you finish that one there are several more I can point you out to, as there are volumes upon volumes about this in my library. At any rate, you're once again forgetting or ignoring that the reason for talking about this at all, is that we don't randomly assume authority to treat non-heretical brothers and sisters, like the ones on this forum, with contempt and anger.

You're right, Ephesus was necessary to depose him - but you're stating a fact that nobody had an issue with, and that I didn't deny. It's like me randomly telling you that the Pope has to ordain Bishops. SO you're explanation is great, but altogether unnecessary. I'm glad you wrote for the benefit of all though - as it almost seemed like you were either ignoring or didn't get the points that I'm trying to make.

At any rate, dear brother, there's nothing more to say on this. Nobody is benefitting from this - unless you are - so if you want to keep arguing needlessly, by all means, let's continue it by PM and let this topic go back to it's original intent. If you're consistent with previous discussions of yours that I have read, you will definitely reply anyway, butI'm letting you know in advance that I will not reply to it here because of the number of people offended.

For my part, I'm perfectly at peace with this. I thank you for your comments about my person, may the Lord change me into a meeker and humbler persons by your prayers.



Pray for me, please.

_________________
 Agapy,
Vortounatoc
Amyn, Maren a;a!

Administrator for Content, Newsletters, and the Book Exchange
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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 26, 2010 - 10:30 PM

Well, the only thing I find worth replying to is your statement that the Pope has to ordain bishops. He doesn't. It just takes three Bishops to ordain a Bishop. So as to not disturb your spirituality, I'll go ahead and point out to others, on your behalf, that you meant in practice, the Pope is usually involved. That is just like when you say "the Council" you really mean SynodS. The only thing worse than an unnecessary fact is an unnecessary misstatement .

You're right, it's a good book. I'm glad you have a lot of books in your library. Add a logic and/or critical analysis book and you'll be good to go.

This whole tangent aside , my point is simple: if writing in the way I do is <i>absolutely</i> wrong, then the Fathers were wrong in their writings, whoever their addressee may have been. "Insulting" a heretic is bad, just like insulting your fellow Copt is bad. The second prong to my point is that I am <i>not</i> saying, "look, the Fathers insulted, so I'm going to insult too." I'm saying, before you start terming things an insult, consider the Fathers' methodology.

Ya3ny estargilo shewaya wee balash sho3'l el 3eyal dah.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 660

coptichymnsman

posted on Jan 29, 2010 - 11:14 AM

God bless you Fortunatus,


and as a mere outsider, when i read this thread, i was just thinking; where IS the spirituality?

Joined: Apr 21, 2003 | Posts: 391
Location: Sydney Australia NSW

CopticSoldier

posted on Jan 31, 2010 - 02:41 AM

I can't speak for the whole earth but I think that this is probably a lot to do with it in the west.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Wb9zTsHVs

We're very clever when it comes to neglecting basic things Christianity revealed to us like death, the cross and salvation preferring to believe that somehow the dying corpses we're walking around in can be clothed, educated, work and live as some kind of goal in itself.

Come Lord Jesus.

Joined: Jan 25, 2004 | Posts: 819
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

lowlyman

posted on Feb 02, 2010 - 04:55 PM

Faith,
From Faith:
5. How does this affect how I interact with others?
As simple as this question may be… I don’t know. I am who I am because of my beliefs, and in essence because of my ultimate goal. I don’t know how this affects how I interact with people. I don’t know how I would be different if my beliefs/ultimate goal were different


i was following what you said until I read the above. Practicing Christianity should make you kind, meek, gentle, humble, and full of love in your dealings with other people. i would say you would be very different if you weren't a good Christian.


i haven't been here for a while, and as soon as I open a post to read, I see truthSeeker fighting fortunatus on a thread bout spirituality. I'd leave it at that.

God bless


From Faith:Hey Fortunatus,

Since this thread has gone unanswered for a while, I figured I’d give it a shot. I cannot answer where spirituality has gone though, because I’m wondering the same thing (although I’m the last person who should be saying that). But let’s answer your questions one by one. I have no idea if this is what you're looking for. Please note that it’s past 4:00am, sorry if I don’t make sense.

1. What is the point [of everything]?
That’s a bit of a tough question. My ultimate goal is to spend my eternal life with our Lord. I mean, essentially that is what everything I do is based on. One question that I ask myself is, “Will this get me to my goal?” I can’t say I do this all the time, but I try… which really leads into all your other questions.

2. How does this affect what I do?
Well, if I continue to keep the thought, “Will this get me to my [ultimate] goal?” in my mind, it really does affect my actions. Again, I cannot say I do this all the time but when I do it really does make the difference. For example, I occasionally pick people up for church. I usually tell them in advance to be ready by a certain time, but sometimes I’m left out in the driveway for several minutes. I have several options – I can leave since they were not ready on time, I can wait for them and yell at them for disrespecting my time, or I can use this opportunity to practice patience and take the blessing of driving these people to church. Which one will get me to my goal? WWJD?

3. How do I get to or achieve “the point”?
I achieve “the point” by trying to be a good Christian. How do I try to be a good Christian? Simply put, reading the Bible, praying, fasting, partaking of the sacraments, obtaining virtues, and serving… basically through my spiritual life. Just last week a few of our youth were talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church and how we believed it to be the best aide to our salvation. The Church offers so many resources and so many tools for us to achieve our ultimate goal. We just need to take advantage of them and use/partake of them.
I also think our relationship with God is key. Anba Antonious Marcos once told me that eventually we will not have just a relationship with God, but rather we become ONE with God.

4. What does that mean in terms of rituals/rites, Sacraments etc...? What is their role in "the point" [of everything]?
I don’t know what this means in terms of rituals/rites lol. But we all know baptism and Chrismation are essential to enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Communion and repentance/confession are the other two essential ones that we should take part of on a regular basis.
With regards to communion, the best way to sum it up is written in John 6:53-58. That just shows how important it is. I don’t even feel like there’s a way to prepare for such an honour. I am not worthy, but I need Him…
Repentance/confession is also really important to me. Just like any athlete needs a coach to help them win the gold medal, my FoC is my coach to help me to my ultimate goal. He’s there to help me cross that finish line.

5. How does this affect how I interact with others?
As simple as this question may be… I don’t know. I am who I am because of my beliefs, and in essence because of my ultimate goal. I don’t know how this affects how I interact with people. I don’t know how I would be different if my beliefs/ultimate goal were different.

6. How does this affect how I view any event internal or external to my person?
What do you mean?

Please correct me if I’m mistaken anywhere… or if I don’t make sense. Fortunatus, in due time, I’d like to hear your answers to these questions. Please and thanks

Pray for me,
Faith

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 278

Faith

posted on Feb 02, 2010 - 10:20 PM

From lowlyman:
i was following what you said until I read the above. Practicing Christianity should make you kind, meek, gentle, humble, and full of love in your dealings with other people. i would say you would be very different if you weren't a good Christian.


Hey lowlyman,

I agree with you, but I think the key word of that statement is should. Yes, practicing Christianity should make me all those things, but does it? I don't know. I know many people who aren't Christians who exhibit all the above characteristics, and many Christians who don't exhibit any of these characteristics. Which makes me think... the way I interact with others, is it because of my ultimate goal? Or is it because this is how I'm expected to act, socially? I think I'm just a confused being. I think that's why I kind of struggled answering that question. But I have no disagreements with you

Pray for me,
Faith.

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 85
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Fortunatus

posted on Feb 03, 2010 - 01:18 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Hey Faith and Lowlyman,

Thanks for bringing this on track again.

Yes, it's the should - if my mind is on *the* goal, it should change absolutely everything. I should only be able to see every action and thought through the lens of that goal. My words have to be in line with that - before I speak I ought to ask if it leads to or distracts from the final goal. Before I offer my opinion on something, I have to ask myself, is this in line with the goal? Before I go somewhere, accept a job, apply to college, brush my teeth - everything, has to be in line with that goal.

If the goal is Him, then the means is holiness (this is the first conference of John Cassian, not my opinion). If a Christian is holy, he can change everything and everyone around him, because he is drawn and drawing others to Christ.

Clearly, especially from my posts above, I am *far* from achieving this, but at least if we can all come together on identifying what "the point" is, and then identifying "challenges" to attaining it, we may be able to support one another through mutual struggling toward the same end....

Pray for me.

_________________
 Agapy,
Vortounatoc
Amyn, Maren a;a!

Administrator for Content, Newsletters, and the Book Exchange
coptichymns.net
- a taste of what is Coptic ...

Questions? Comments? E-mail or PM me!
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Joined: Sep 04, 2003 | Posts: 460
Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

Truth.Seeker

posted on Feb 07, 2010 - 02:47 AM

lowlyman,

I wasn't fighting anybody. I'll leave it at that.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 660

lowlyman

posted on Feb 09, 2010 - 03:34 PM

From Faith:

Yes, practicing Christianity should make me all those things, but does it? I don't know.


Of course it does. I am very confident that you will get to know that for sure if you stay in the faith.

From Faith:
I know many people who aren't Christians who exhibit all the above characteristics, and many Christians who don't exhibit any of these characteristics. Which makes me think...

I think there is a key differentiator. does the above characteristics lead an individual to the Love that is of God?That is can you love your enemy with the love that is of God? Those who can love their enemies are Christians for sure. by the way, many people exhibit the above characteristics, but they do that either for a personal gain, or when the going gets tough, they revert back to the old ways.

From Faith: the way I interact with others, is it because of my ultimate goal?


It should be because of your ultimate goal. Just think of the many fools for Christ. think of the prophets, and all those who were rejected by society for the sake of Christ.

From Faith:
I think I'm just a confused being. I think that's why I kind of struggled answering that question. But I have no disagreements with you


On the first point above, we have all been confused and most of us still are.

Neither do I have any disagreement with you



Pray for me,
lowlyman

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 278

Truth.Seeker

posted on Feb 13, 2010 - 03:20 PM

Alright, before I get angry responses, I would like to point out: I am extremely calm, I am not attacking anybody, anything in this post that sounds like it was meant to offend you was not intended to do so. I'm thinking of putting this disclaimer in my signature .

Here are my thoughts on the spirituality discussion:

If we practice Christianity correctly, "all of those things" <i>will</i> happen. That's because if we practice Christianity correctly, all of those things are encompassed. You won't get angry if slighted, you'd turn the other cheak, you'll love everyone, etc...

The problem is that we practice Christianity incorrectly (we are not perfect - no surprise there). So, here's how it works: perfection comes after death (monastic fathers call this "unchangeability"). So long as we're alive, we'll practice Christianity imperfectly. Of course there are different levels of imperfection ... there's extreme imperfection, and there's slight imperfection, and what's "imperfect" for St. Antony may be more than perfect for us.

In short, God's perfection is absolute, and our "perfection" is relative to Him and to one another. The more we become like God, the more of "all of those things" we MUST do. I say MUST because if we're not doing those things then we're not at that level yet.

__________

This can get into a theological discussion about the importane of "works" really fast, but I'll just say a couple of sentences. Our faith leads us to act in a certain way, and acting in a certain way leads our faith to increase ... which then leads us to act in a certain way. Sin messes with the cycle. The way we do ANYTHING should be because of our ultimate goal (otherwise what we're doing will mess with the cycle). This includes interacting with others, or anything else.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 660